Reasons why nice coins end up in third-tier slabs?

kranky

It's been said over and over that there are nice coins that can be found in any service's slabs. While we caution people that the odds get harder to beat as you move down the scale of grading services, there have been numerous examples of people finding quality, fairly-priced (let's ignore the grade and focus on value) coins in third-tier slabs.

That has me wondering: how do these coins get in those slabs in the first place? If we assume that knowledgeable collectors and dealers would know enough to maximize the value of their coins by getting them slabbed by the top services, knowing that many people won't even look at coins in certain slabs, who is putting the nice coins in those slabs, and why?

kieferscoins

Don't assume. Some people are not as knowledgeable as one might think even though they might spend a lot of money. They see the cheaper prices for the lower tier grading services, and send in the coins thinking all services are about the same.

Cameron Kiefer

Stuart

Here's an interesting example of taking some risk on E-Bay (a while back) with minimal downside risk and significant potential upside... I risked $110 for this beautiful 1882-O NTC MS-64 DMPL Morgan Dollar.

I will probably crack it out (with some other third-tier slabbed coins) and send it in to PCGS for grading this month... I've still got a few others up my sleeve to share with you from my recent new camera test drive photo shoot...

I think that she's pretty nice for an NTC certified coin. I expect it to grade at least MS-64 PL, with a shot at MS-64 DMPL or perhaps MS-65 PL. The watery clear reflective fields are a lock for the PCGS PL designation -- they look DMPL to me...

ziggy29

I think some people -- perhaps old-timey collectors and perhaps their estates -- hear that "certified coins" sell better and for higher prices than many raw coins, and just send them to any certification service, often choosing the cheapest and/or the fastest. If PCGS takes 60 days to turn a coin around and (insesrt third world slabber name here) can do it in 10-15 for less money, if they don't know the certified coin market well...where might they go?

In other words, they may know coins (and the market of a bygone era) but they may not know the slabbing market well at all. Some may think they're all relatively equal.

And yes...a broken clock is right twice a day, and once in a while, a downright nice piece, conservatively graded, surfaces in a third world slab. It's the cherry-picker's job to identify when the stopped clock is right.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>Don't assume. Some people are not as knowledgeable as one might think even though they might spend a lot of money. They see the cheaper prices for the lower tier grading services, and send in the coins thinking all services are about the same.

Cameron Kiefer >>



Very true. After being out of the hobby from 1989 untill 1997 very little was known about the differences between grading services. Just to test the grading skills a coin was sent to PCI, first ever submission, for a opinion. The coin came back with the grade I thought it was. Since then no other coins have been submitted to them because of their obvious grading standard changes and knowledge obtained from boards like this one pertaining to price structure on the selling end. ICG was tried also. That was a disaster because of the inconsistant standard they have which was confirmed by a couple of dealers.

Now only PCGS, NGC or ANACS are even considered. A true grade opinion is wanted even if it hurts a little every once in a while.

Ken

BAJJERFAN

Maybe the third tier TPG's buy coins by the roll and slab em and put em on the market!!

ajia

Stuart...."The watery clear reflective fields ......"
Looks like hazeyness back there, with a print on the rev.!

As for the question at hand, yeah it's tough spending twice as much & waiting twice as long to get submissions from PCGS. If I was new & didn't start collecting PCGS slabbed coins when I started collecting graded coins I might have started with the less expensive "service".

Another reason few people want to bring up is the @$$e$ that send to these services to pick-up a point or 2 on the coins grade, or a coin that has been cleaned & still be graded so they can sell them to the unsuspecting public....I know, I bought a PCI coin that I cracked to see what it would grade....came back BB for cleaning!

Coinhusker1

<< <i>Here's an interesting example of taking some risk on E-Bay (a while back) with minimal downside risk and significant potential upside... I risked $110 for this beautiful 1882-O NTC MS-64 DMPL Morgan Dollar.

I will probably crack it out (with some other third-tier slabbed coins) and send it in to PCGS for grading this month... I've still got a few others up my sleeve to share with you from my recent new camera test drive photo shoot...

I think that she's pretty nice for an NTC certified coin. I expect it to grade at least MS-64 PL, with a shot at MS-64 DMPL or perhaps MS-65 PL. The watery clear reflective fields are a lock for the PCGS PL designation -- they look DMPL to me...

>>



I'll give you $120 for it

Seriously, do you have a copy of the auction pic? It would be interesting to see that compared with your excellent image.

Stuart

Ajia: In this case my photo of the coin is not very flattering as compared to the coin in hand. This is one of those cases where the coin looks better in person than it does in the photo.

This photo taken in daylight, does a good job of depicting the cameo frosty surfaces showing significant contrast between devices and fields, but this particular photo does not depict the mirror-like fields very well.

Stuart

CoinHusker: I doubt that I would still have the original auction photo of the coin to compare with my newer photo. I will check my computer files at home and will post the image to this thread for comparison purposes if I can find it.

Thanks for your offer, but I'll respectfully decline.

michael

Don't assume. Some people are not as knowledgeable as one might think even though they might spend a lot of money. They see the cheaper prices for the lower tier grading services, and send in the coins thinking all services are about the same.

Cameron Kiefer
******************************************************************************
ziggy29
Collector


I think some people -- perhaps old-timey collectors and perhaps their estates -- hear that "certified coins" sell better and for higher prices than many raw coins, and just send them to any certification service, often choosing the cheapest and/or the fastest. If PCGS takes 60 days to turn a coin around and (insesrt third world slabber name here) can do it in 10-15 for less money, if they don't know the certified coin market well...where might they go?

In other words, they may know coins (and the market of a bygone era) but they may not know the slabbing market well at all. Some may think they're all relatively equal.

And yes...a broken clock is right twice a day, and once in a while, a downright nice piece, conservatively graded, surfaces in a third world slab. It's the cherry-picker's job to identify when the stopped clock is right.

Cam40

Stuart- Your Morgie,to me, looks like a slam dunk DMPL
even if the fields are a tad bit hazy, i can still see deep mirrors on it.
Great aquisition there.

IrishMike

Attend some small coin shows and you will get your answer. Many of these vest pocket dealers deal with unsophisticated collectors, including those who are not familiar with TPG's, grading or care. They buy because they like the look of the coin and because they are better coins than the dealers sells in 2X2's. Many of these dealers send their coins to the least expensive TPG because generally speaking they aren't PQ coins to begin with. They in turn buy coins from the public which are slabbed in other TPG's slabs.

These dealers and their clients are oblivious to PCGS, NGC registries, the grading process at these companies, etc. They are interested in paying fairly cheap prices for their coins that look nice. It's really that simple. Here is cent I picked up in an olders segs holder, a brown cent. Anyone care to take a stab at the grade?

Cam40

the SEGS grade?
66 RB?

i might call it a 58 but, i cant tell from a picture, plus i,m a total amature on grading, but i,m learning.

IrishMike

No its a brown, I stated that in the post, they massively undergraded it at 63.

Cam40

gsaguy

Stuart,

I'll definitely be interested to see what PCGS does with that piece.

It's a beautiful piece, but something about the cheek looks suspicious to me......like perhaps it's been tampered with. That's just a hunch on my part, especially realizing that it's tough to draw any serious conclusions based on a photograph alone.

Have you looked at the cheek under high magnification?

Good luck with the coin and do let us know how you do.....I hope you hit a homerun.

GSAGUY

nccoin

I would grade it 64 BR from the image. Cam, 58? Got any raw Indian heads for sale

Stuart

Bryan: Here are 3 additional photos which I subsequently took in artifical light which may better illuminate the cheek area that you were referring to -- including a closeup of the cheek area...

gsaguy

Stuart,

Thanks for the extra photo. I can't really see any problems with the coin based on that one.

Perhaps I've just fallen prey to the, "it looks as good as or better than MS64, so why did NTC grade it only that-syndrome". Perhaps the catch was their DMPL designation?

Let us know how it does at PCGS.

For the record, I once found a DMPL CC-Morgan raw in my inventory. I couldn't recall where I'd bought the coin, it was in a flip.....raw, in other words. At first glance, it was a super-looking piece, but something about the cheek just didn't look right to me. I showed it to Mike at ANACS and he agreed, though he couldn't say for sure that it had been tampered with.

I later sold the coin to a dealer after disclosing to him that I had reservations about the cheek. He got it certified with no problem at PCGS.

So, who knows?

GSAGUY

Conder101

<< <i>or a coin that has been cleaned & still be graded so they can sell them to the unsuspecting public....I know, I bought a PCI coin that I cracked to see what it would grade....came back BB for cleaning! >>


Doesn't mean a thing. There have been plenty of stories related here that have said the same thing , only instead of PCI they were cracked out of NGC or PCGS slabs. We have something of a double standard here. By and crack a second or third tier slab and get burned and the service is roundly condemned and the person swears he will never buy anything but NGC or PCGS. But buy and crack a PCGS or NGC and get burned and it's "well nobodies perfect" and they go right on patronizing the big two. we actually hold the second/third tier companies to a higher standard than the top services.