$5 indian- counterfiet & $10 liberty

darktone

mike

sinin1

it looks nice - but I wouldn't buy it - could be fake

darktone

<< <i>it looks nice - but I wouldn't buy it - could be fake >>

I said no cheating!......... yes it's a counterfiet. I thought it would be a good one to show some of the new collectors to let them know how good they can look. mike

meos1

Itsn't the disgnostic in the die polish line on the reverse in the arrow heads??

mhammerman

There are a number of diagnostics on the $5's. For one, the surface is the first thing you want to look at, including the color of the gold itself. Unless you have looked at a number of these and are familiar with the surface in various grades and the range of colors then you don't have a chance. The next diagnostic is the necklace and back of the neck at the feather line. I like to look at the headband, in this case, look at the top of the headband on the left side of the band itself, incomplete. In the case of this coin, look at the bumpy surface and creases on the right side along the star field...not good. I think if you could look at the necklace a little closer you would see that it is not what you would expect to see in a genuine coin.

littlejohn

hi
thank you for the pic.
i think it would have fool me,i am happy to get to see it.
and am glad i did not see it on ebay.
its a real good fake.
littlejohn

Merc

I would say $2.5 and $5 Indians are about impossible to grade from a picture. These are the toughest to grade due to the incut relief. The counterfiets are common too. Randy from ANACS said he saw a whole $5 collection of all dates and mintmarks that was all counterfeit. Here the gold looks too much like new gold and is very bright and yellow. The stars on the left are too close to the rim. Other than that, it is hard to tell it is a counterfeit from a picture.

Nice example of a well made counterfeit by the way.

mhammerman

compare the one pictured on top of this thread with this one, looking at the headband, necklace, and surface. Notice that the surface (this is an au 58) is uniform and the color shows a fair amount of copper in it almost to the point of having a green haze. Look at the return on the feather bonnet, on the fake it does not return to the forehead, on the genuine, you can see the return. Also look at the necklace, probably the best diagnostic but you cant tell so good from the photo of these, compare the two necklaces. Go to heritage and get a close up look at some ms material and you can easily see the difference between this fake and a genuine coin. The problem with this stuff is that you immediately start looking at grade and sometimes fail to do a diagnostic first. The next thing you know is that you are calling the coin an au 53 and you forgot to see if it was genuine first!

darktone

I am by no means an expert on these but the color of many fakes can be spotted a few feet away- and be on the look out for die crack like lines from the spark erosion process. The crease or half circle on these by the stars is fairly common on real ones as well so don't condemn a coin for this. For the most part you can't teach what is real from a picture but if you handle a couple of these you will know more than 90% of the rest of collectors. mike

Merc

It is a good example of the dangers of buying a coin just from a picture!

ziggy29

<< <i>It is a good example of the dangers of buying a coin just from a picture! >>

And a good example of the dangers of buying raw gold, *period*.

Scavenger

Does this have "copy" stamped on the back? Just curious.


This is why I usually dont buy raw coins.

JadeRareCoin

This is why I usually dont buy raw coins.

It is a fact that counterfeit $2.5 and $5 Indians do currently reside in PCGS and NGC holders (and every 3rd world tpg holder). That's a fact. It is rare, but it happens.

Counterfeit $2.5 and $5 Indians are the most difficult gold coins to authenticate, mostly because of the incuse design. I do not like to grade or authenticate any coin from an image, but if I must, I look for certain things:

1) Color, luster, surfaces. You need a baseline of personal experience here, which is having handled many pieces over the years. The coin in this thread just looks too damn good. These are usually not this color and as lustrous. But, again, it's difficult to judge from an image.

2) Details. Look at the depth of the design elements and the size/shape. On the coin pictured here, take a look at stars 6 and 8. Notice how star 6 is much larger than star 8? Should be the same. Also, some of the fine details will be missing, especially if the counterfeit die is engraved and not an EDM die.

3) The edge. Look for consistency on the reeding. Counterfeits are usually incorrectly spaced, uneven and/or irregular.

4) Weight and diameter. These are just backup information as you cannot rely on physical measurements alone.

5) Have a genuine coin in hand when authenticating other coins. This is helpful for me.


Good luck!

Dennis

mr1931S

thanks for pic, darktone and comments, others. Even experienced/knowledgeable collectors/dealers can be fooled by some of these forgeries. The point here is that it is very risky business to be buying raw gold from anyone on ebay, at flea markets, etc.

For newbies just getting into gold: Buy a few certified pieces before you EVEN think about buying raw gold. What a genuine coin really looks like needs to be emblazoned in your brain before you can safely buy a raw gold coin.

I recommend that people buy the book, Numismatic Forgery, by Charles Larson. Its an eye opener. $20 well spent.

darktone

Here's a fake $10 liberty.

littlejohn

that a fake too???
littlejohn

darktone

Yep, that one is counterfeit also. mike

jom

Great thread.

I didn't trust the $5 the minute I saw it. It just looked WAY too good. In the VAST majority of $5 Indians you do NOT get the "black and white" luster cartwheel effect. And it never covers the face area like this one does....usually only in the field....which like I say is VERY rare. I personally have seen only a few over the years that even came close to this one. Plus, the lowest (bottom) headdress feather is very weakly struck. Most 1908's are better struck than that...at least in that area.

jom