Hey Jeffy guys!! More Errors!!

MadMarty · December 1, 2004 1:55AM

A few more from another order

001 1989 P STRUCK 20% OFF CENTER 5C MS 65 5FS MINT ERROR
002 1980 P STRUCK 10% OFF CENTER 5C MS 65 5FS MINT ERROR
003 1989 P STRUCK 15% OFF CENTER 5C MS 64 6FS MINT ERROR

Smittys · December 1, 2004 1:59AM

Isn't FS kinda false leading since the coins are offcenter so
preasure going to be distibuted differently?
Just wondering,
Smitty

Russ · December 1, 2004 2:31AM

If the steps are full, the steps are full. I don't think it matters if that resulted from an off center strike. There are some years that are so tough for FS that you practically need an off center strike for the steps to be full.

Russ, NCNE

seanq · December 1, 2004 2:41AM

Russ is exactly right. I've seen two off-center 1954-S nickels with full steps. The effective striking pressure is higher because there is less metal compressing between the dies... or words to that effect. Errormaven wil eventualy translate that last bit into English for me.

Sean Reynolds

errormaven · December 1, 2004 2:56AM

<< Russ is exactly right. I've seen two off-center 1954-S nickels with full steps. The effective striking pressure is higher because there is less metal compressing between the dies... or words to that effect. Errormaven wil eventualy translate that last bit into English for me.

Sean Reynolds >>

You said it pretty clearly, Sean. The smaller the area exposed to the strike, the higher the effective striking pressure. Any force concentrated in a smaller area will create a greater force per unit area. That's why you can't walk through snow in high heels but can in showshoes. So the steps will strike up nicely.

Another factor in creating sharp steps is the fact that the planchet isn't confined by the collar and is therefore no longer acting as an incompressible disc resisting the downstroke of the hammer die. There is very little total resistance to the impact of the die, which will allow coin metal to flow freely into the recesses of the die face. So even broadstrikes and minor off-center strikes generally show sharper features than an in-collar strike.

-- Mike Diamond

keets · December 1, 2004 3:53AM

while you guys may have expressed a proper explanation for the steps being struck full, the coins in question shouldn't be mistaken as Full Step coins or considered Full Step coins for any serious collector. as far as i know, PCGS doesn't designate FS on errors of this kind or on errors struck on the wrong planchet such as copper. that composition being much softer strikes better, but would you consider such a coin Full Steps?? probably not, at least not a purist, i guess.

it might sound a bit stodgy or prudish, but NGC shouldn't attribute errors with the strike designation simply because the strike isn't the same as a properly centered and correct planchet for whatever the particular coin might be. it's an error, right??

al h.

kieferscoins · December 1, 2004 3:54AM

FS is full steps.

Cameron Kiefer

keets · December 1, 2004 3:55AM

not really, Cameron. stick to samples.

al h.

kieferscoins · December 1, 2004 3:57AM

Thats a nice remark.

YOU may not believe it but I agree with NGC. The designation is describing if the coin is fully struck on the steps. Thats all. It can still be fully struck on the steps and still an error coin. The FS may not bring more money, but if it is FS they should say so.

Cameron Kiefer

keets · December 1, 2004 4:13AM

Cameron, it's an error, it's not a typical strike. why should it be graded and designated the same as a typical strike?? you're an educated man so "because the steps are full" isn't an acceptable answer, you should be able to do better than that. and please remember that the FS designation really has nothing to do with a coin being fully struck, despite the inference. it better describes a strike where all the conditions necessary for the minting process are to a higher degree. one often overlooked aspect of Jefferson Nickels is the planchet and how it affects metal flow to the deepest parts of the dies. an off-center planchet should result in higher effective striking pressure and better metal flow. so long as the step area is included in the area of the planchet still between the dies, it should always result in that area of the coin being "fully struck."

in that regard, the FS designation for an off-center strike or for an off-metal strike is a bit misleading since it pre-supposes that a strike resulting is Full Steps is almost an anomoly when the opposite is truer.

now, please pass the Kool-aid. all this has me thirsty for a properly graded/designated PCGS holdered sample slab.

al h.

kieferscoins · December 1, 2004 4:16AM

<< stick to samples. >>

<< all this has me thirsty for a properly graded/designated PCGS holdered sample slab >>

Knock off the sample slab comments. It has nothing to do with this topic. I don't even feel like replying to your comments about the FS although you do bring up some good points. It is a waste of time. I know how you feel and you won't give me the same respect with my replies.

Cameron Kiefer

keets · December 1, 2004 4:20AM

I know how you feel and you won't give me the same respect with my replies.

the reason you get teased the way you do is because you're wrapped to tight, so we yank your chain to see you bark!!! you never dissappoint us, either. now just take this stuff in stride because i actually like you and bear no animosity-----though i do chuckle when you dance!!

now, get back to the topic at hand, grab hold of at least a semblance of humor and debate the topic. and don't make me get nasty.............

it'll ruin my highly polished image around here as a nice guy.

al h.

kieferscoins · December 1, 2004 4:25AM

Ok. Just wink (

) so I know you are yanking my chain. Here is a pic that might show your kool-aide favorite company does the exact same thing with strike designations:

I bet PCGS would put FS regardless of what planchet it is on.

Cameron Kiefer

MadMarty · December 1, 2004 4:27AM

Shouldn't that be HH (half head!)

Russ · December 1, 2004 4:31AM

I think PCGS got that SLQ wrong. It looks 12% off center to me.

Russ, NCNE

keets · December 1, 2004 4:35AM

hey Cameron

you see, you've regained reason and posted a picture of a coin which is actually a very good example for this discussion. though i'm not an SLQ collector and sadly own --zero-- examples of this issue, my favorite dealer hoards them. he probably has several thousand coins in varying grades and one peculiarity i've noticed is that the issue is plagued with irregular strikes where the head is oftentimes fully struck yet the area around the date is weaker, and vice-versa.

as far as the Jeffersons go, i've seen wrong planchet coins that aren't designated FS but are given the RD nod.

al h.

kieferscoins · December 1, 2004 4:41AM

Still not a wrong planchet but a FS error nickel. This is a question to ask HRH if they grade off center, wrong planchet nickels FS if the steps are full.

Cameron Kiefer

keets · December 1, 2004 6:17AM

as far as i know, PCGS doesn't designate FS on errors of this kind or on errors struck on the wrong planchet

hey Cameron

struck through errors aren't a good comparison. the suggestion of asking HRH for some type of explanation/clarity about how PCGS views wrong planchet/off-center strikes, the attendant designations and the reasoning behind it is a good one. someone aside from me should ask, he's never responded to a question------yet.

al h.

seanq · December 1, 2004 6:31AM

I was always told that PCGS grades error coins just like they grade any other coin, with the error attribution handled separately. So for the purposes of assigning superlatives like FS or FH, or even color designations like RD or RB to mint-state copper, the fact that the coin is an error doesn't come into consideration at all.

Whether a customer for a certified off-center 1980-P nickel will necessarily care that the coin has full steps is another issue entirely.

Sean Reynolds

errormaven · December 1, 2004 9:22PM

<< 

<< You said it pretty clearly, Sean. The smaller the area exposed to the strike, the higher the effective striking pressure. Any force concentrated in a smaller area will create a greater force per unit area. That's why you can't walk through snow in high heels but can in showshoes. So the steps will strike up nicely.

Another factor in creating sharp steps is the fact that the planchet isn't confined by the collar and is therefore no longer acting as an incompressible disc resisting the downstroke of the hammer die. There is very little total resistance to the impact of the die, which will allow coin metal to flow freely into the recesses of the die face. So even broadstrikes and minor off-center strikes generally show sharper features than an in-collar strike.

-- Mike Diamond >>

The latter principle only applies to central design elements, of course. Peripheral design elements will often be poorly defined and stretched out, since metal is squirting out between the dies. Hence the "metal flow" that is part and parcel of out-of-collar strikes. The design rim will also not strike up well, and often doesn't appear at all.

Hey Jeffy guys!! More Errors!!

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