POLL: Should Circs be Designated CAM and DCAM?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
Take a look at ARCO's Barber halves. Some display a cameo effect every bit as much as gem proofs. It seems to me that it's inconsistent to designate proof cameos but not circ cameos. What do you think? Please explain your vote.

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Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

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Comments

  • What coin is Cameo in there Andy?

    Cameron Kiefer
    Kiefer Numismatics

    303-570-1897

    NGC Authorized Dealer
    CAC Submission Center
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What coin is Cameo in there Andy?

    Certainly the 99 in the lower right corner qualifies. Actually, I'd call it DCAM, assuming that was an accepted practice.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • tsacchtsacch Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭
    No, IMHO because dirty surfaces in the field vs more clean surfaces on the face/design and letters dont constitue Cam to me........ Cam is from smooth fields and white design/face from new/like new dies.
    Family, kids, coins, sports (playing not watching), jet skiing, wakeboarding, Big Air....no one ever got hurt in the air....its the sudden stop that hurts. I hate Hurricane Sandy. I hate FEMA and i hate the blasted insurance companies.
  • No.

    This is crazy. Go eat some turkey or something and put down the coins! You need a breakimage

    Cameron Kiefer
    Kiefer Numismatics

    303-570-1897

    NGC Authorized Dealer
    CAC Submission Center
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,905 ✭✭
    Andy:??????????????????????????????????????? Is this April Fool's Day not Thanksgiving?
    Happy whateverimage
    Trime
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,740 ✭✭✭
    No. unless DCAM means dirty cameo.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this April Fool's Day not Thanksgiving?

    Of course not. I don't see why you would even say that. Contrast is contrast.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,905 ✭✭
    Sorry Andy. Not to my eye.
    Trime
  • NO!!!!!!

    andy i met you at the ana last summer and you where an advanced specialist coin dealer with much knowledge , honest terrific coin dealer with a great personailty

    BUT


    andy .......... you have to stop smoking those doobies it is making your brain go into nitpicking overload

    michael


    Posts are based on experience and are opinion only. Experiences and opinions of others may differ.

    --------------------------------------------

    would you pay even a fraction of the amounts kicked around here for slabbed 69/70 grades if the coins were raw? If not then you should rethink your position. "Buy the coin not the label in the plastic holder." ANYONE who pays the kind of dollars that is being batted around here is buying that little label that is sealed in plastic.
  • image

    Cameron Kiefer
    Kiefer Numismatics

    303-570-1897

    NGC Authorized Dealer
    CAC Submission Center
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 13,205 ✭✭✭
    MICHAEL!!!image
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like "Cameo Contrast." It may not be accurate or exactly definable, but I sure like the effect on a circulated coin.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you have to stop smoking those doobies it is making your brain go into nitpicking overload

    Michael - Thank you for the kind words and honest advice. Nevertheless, I must point out that "nitpicking" is one of the core values of our hobby. Only a community of nitpickers would count half steps on a Jefferson nickel, value a 68 at multiples of a 67 price, or even look at (much less actually use) Newcomb to attribute late date large cents.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,615 ✭✭✭✭
    Contrast due to circulation should never count. image

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!

  • well aNDY I HAVE TO AGREE with you as there are many that collect error coins with doubled seirfs and other varities

    and i cant even see them when they point them out to me and i am looking at them with a 10x glass!!!

    so i guess anything is possible with all the crazy stuff that is being collected at 10 to 1000 times the price raw vs. as far as the plastic is going

    i guess there might be a big market of new collectors for these so designated dcam and cam coins

    nothing surprises me in this market anymore

    michael

    Posts are based on experience and are opinion only. Experiences and opinions of others may differ.

    --------------------------------------------

    would you pay even a fraction of the amounts kicked around here for slabbed 69/70 grades if the coins were raw? If not then you should rethink your position. "Buy the coin not the label in the plastic holder." ANYONE who pays the kind of dollars that is being batted around here is buying that little label that is sealed in plastic.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, I've decided to do a DCAM circ type set. When the TPG's give the coins their due recognition, I'll be rich!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • I always thought the services should put the Cameo designation on Business strikes and not just the proof issues. I see they give this designation to Modern Business strikes. My thoughts were geared more towards MS examples and not circs though.
    I don't know anything about what the services look for?? But doesn't it have to do with mirrors and the depth of mirror and not just contrast??
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,558 ✭✭✭
    You guys are hysterical. Does that make me a nerd? image
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • Those are some awesomly sweet looking Barbers but, I don't see any cameo or deep cameo what so ever.
    Scott Hopkins
    -YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.

    My Ebay!
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see any cameo or deep cameo what so ever.

    Don't let it bother you. It takes a trained eye.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image


  • << <i>Don't let it bother you. It takes a trained eye. >>


    imageLMAOimage
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • "trained" after a long night of drinkingimage

    Cameron Kiefer
    Kiefer Numismatics

    303-570-1897

    NGC Authorized Dealer
    CAC Submission Center
  • No way Jose! The effects you see on that coin are not from the minting process but from circulation and storage. If I spray painted some coins black and white do you think that they should be designated as cameo? Kind of a drastic comparison but neither of the two happened at the mint.
    Jason Craton --- WINS #5

    MY EBAY AUCTIONS
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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did not vote, however, your previous thoughts in connection with a choice and gem catagory for circulated coins was great. I really need to think about this one, but I am not optimistic about this.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    your previous thoughts in connection with a choice and gem catagory for circulated coins was great. I really need to think about this one, but I am not optimistic about this.

    No problem. More GEM VF25 DCAM's for me!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In light of recent interest, I'll revive this poll!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder what this move by PCGS would lead to. Imagine what would happen to values. Imagine the things coin doctors would start doing.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I wonder what this move by PCGS would lead to. Imagine what would happen to values. Imagine the things coin doctors would start doing. >>



    Andy, exactly how is this more coin doctoring a positive thing? image

    Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc. An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,688 ✭✭✭
    No. I'm okay with high AU business strikes being designated as prooflike, but that's about as far as I go.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andy, exactly how is this more coin doctoring a positive thing?

    Well, it's good for the doctors, it's good for the dealers that will promote the product, and for a while it will be good for the TPG's revenues. Not that any of that matters to me. Just answering your question.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Andy, exactly how is this more coin doctoring a positive thing?

    Well, it's good for the doctors, it's good for the dealers that will promote the product, and for a while it will be good for the TPG's revenues. Not that any of that matters to me. Just answering your question. >>



    That's I think exactly my point. If it's not a positive thing, why do it?

    Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc. An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • As for VF Barbers, NO! However, there are Morgan Dollars which barely lost out on MS which are still, obviously, PL.
    I collect circulated U.S. silver
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's I think exactly my point. If it's not a positive thing, why do it?

    I didn't say "it's not a positive thing". I said, in effect, that it's not a positive thing for me.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That's I think exactly my point. If it's not a positive thing, why do it?

    I didn't say "it's not a positive thing". I said, in effect, that it's not a positive thing for me. >>



    OK, now I understand. Thank you for clarifying it for me, I was having difficulty understanding the reasoning.

    Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc. An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • ccexccex Posts: 1,211 ✭✭
    I voted YES. Arco is one of my coin collecting heroes, and I try to build my 3 circulated Barber sets with the "circulated cameo" look that has made his set famous here. I know the Barber series best, but see the circulated cameo issue as an upcoming designation across all series of circulated U.S. coins.

    As silly as it may sound, there are many other collectors who enjoy original circulated coins with light devices and darker fields. We can tell when a coin has been messed with, and so can PCGS. I am willing to pay a premium for a circulated cameo VF or XF Barber coin over the typical monochrome gray one in the same grade, so PCGS might actually consider the designation of Circulated CAM. It remains to be seen whether the circulated CAM designation carries enough of a premium to cover the grading fees on enough lower grade circulated coins (and I have some circ. CAM G-4s)

    However, I think it will be tough to write the standard between circulated CAM and circulated DCAM, but I expect this will be attempted in the next five years. If there's one thing that numismatists have in common, it's the ability to discern minute differences between coins and tell each other how to distinguish them. I can differentiate between AG 3.0, 3.3, 3.5, 3.7 and Good 4, in the coins I know best, (even when these differences usually don't translate into much higher or lower prices), so why couldn't PCGS draw the line between circulated CAM and circulated DCAM?
    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
  • I love that look, it epitomizes eye appeal for me.

    But I don't see the need for a designation. People who care to collect coins that look like this know what they look like and don't need a TPG to tell them that it looks a certain way. Or maybe some people do. I know I don't.

    There's probably some selfish motivation to my position also... it might make it more expensive for me to collect coins that looked the way I like them to. image

    -Amanda

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  • ccexccex Posts: 1,211 ✭✭


    << <i>I love that look, it epitomizes eye appeal for me.

    But I don't see the need for a designation. People who care to collect coins that look like this know what they look like and don't need a TPG to tell them that it looks a certain way. Or maybe some people do. I know I don't.

    There's probably some selfish motivation to my position also... it might make it more expensive for me to collect coins that looked the way I like them to. image

    -Amanda >>



    Thanks, Amanda

    We both love that look, and neither of us needs a TPG to tell us when a coin has it (but others who can afford the plastic will eventually pay for the opinion of a TPG to say that their circulated coin has the extra oomph of eye appeal).

    The question remains whether submitting better circulated coins for the elusive CAM or DCAM designation allows us to sell our best duplicates at a premium, or whether the proposed designations will simply make the coins with our favorite look more expensive. If circulated CAM coins are eventually established as better than a non-CAM with the same detail, some collectors will be able to cash in on their previous pickiness (like FH SLQ collectors, Red copper collectors, FBL Franklin collectors, etc. have been rewarded). Until circulated coins with the eye appeal we love becomes official, I'll continue to cherrypick these.

    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
  • 53BKid53BKid Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭
    Silly topic--

    I've never seen a circulated coin appear with either-maybe with frosty devices, or really great eye appeal, but otherwise, other than proof-like morgans, I can't recall seeing any.
    HAPPY COLLECTING!!!
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭✭

    ...and the term "circulated cameo" is coined by MrEureka!

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely! A cameo is a cameo just as a PR-40 is a Proof! So should PL's as long as the contrast (cameo) or mirror (PL) is obvious. I have to laugh when we OBDM a Morgan and ignore coins with only the reverse deep mirror. I've been told the OBDM's are worth a little extra and that's why it is done.

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 41,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nysoto said:
    ...and the term "circulated cameo" is coined by MrEureka!

    I know I came up with the term independently of MrEureka (and maybe before him), but since this thread predates my own earliest mention of the term that I can find (my own 2006 thread about CircCams), it appears he gets the credit, as I have no evidence to back my claim to the term before 2006. I'll let the ANA know about the counterclaim.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lordmarcovan said:

    @Nysoto said:
    ...and the term "circulated cameo" is coined by MrEureka!

    I know I came up with the term independently of MrEureka (and maybe before him), but since this thread predates my own earliest mention of the term that I can find (my own 2006 thread about CircCams), it appears he gets the credit, as I have no evidence to back my claim to the term before 2006. I'll let the ANA know about the counterclaim.

    Actually, I think you were about 25+ years too late. :wink:

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Objective criteria have to be established for the reflectivity of fields, and that it is required for both sides. Then a simple test apparatus, such as dispersion of a collimated red laser beam 75-degrees to the surface at send and return distances of 250mm.

    Once the rules are fixed, then any coin that meets the criteria for "PL" or "DMPL" should be given the appropriate title.

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,908 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My response to this 14 year old thread is no.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    My response to this 14 year old thread is no.

    Give it some time. You'll come around.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 5,089 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018 1:49PM

    I don't think that the term cameo should be designated/used (at least by a TPGS) for circulated coins. The term was originally intended for different types of surface characteristics and contrasts. I have no problem using the term 'circulated cameo' in a looser, general sense but just not by a TPGS, as it was meant for a frosty device and mirrored field contrast, which is a circulated cameo is not.

    Walking Liberty Sets

    "Looking back, of course, it was irresponsible, mad, forlorn and idiotic but, if you don't take chances, then you'll never have a winning hand and I have no regrets."--Bernard Cornwell.
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,908 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @ms70 said:
    My response to this 14 year old thread is no.

    Give it some time. You'll come around.

    I'll check this thread in another 14 years and let you know.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,098 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would it be wrong to admit that this slipped off the list of things I was contemplating?

    Would it be wrong to ask for an extension to further contemplate this question?

    Seems the other question of choice and gem applying to a circulated grades to amplify the whole quality for the grade concept makes sense. I will vote for that today... Should have 14 years ago and I may have back then if the thread were found and directed TTT

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:
    I don't think that the term cameo should be designated/used (at least by a TPGS) for circulated coins. The term was originally intended for different types of surface characteristics and contrasts. I have no problem using the term 'circulated cameo' in a looser, general sense but just not by a TPGS, as it was meant for a frosty device and mirrored field contrast, which is a circulated cameo is not.

    I disagree. You can see a cameo contrast (esp. on a DMPL) way down the circulated range. But I will agree we don't need it. I'd rather see the PL designation used for circ's.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Cameo" as in jewelry, is a term applied to strong contrast between a design and the background. That is also how it is used among coin collectors. It should, therefore, apply equally to all coins that meet the technical criteria.

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