POLL: Should Circs be Designated CAM and DCAM?
MrEureka
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Take a look at ARCO's Barber halves. Some display a cameo effect every bit as much as gem proofs. It seems to me that it's inconsistent to designate proof cameos but not circ cameos. What do you think? Please explain your vote.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
Certainly the 99 in the lower right corner qualifies. Actually, I'd call it DCAM, assuming that was an accepted practice.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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This is crazy. Go eat some turkey or something and put down the coins! You need a break
Cameron Kiefer
Happy whatever
Of course not. I don't see why you would even say that. Contrast is contrast.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
andy i met you at the ana last summer and you where an advanced specialist coin dealer with much knowledge , honest terrific coin dealer with a great personailty
BUT
andy .......... you have to stop smoking those doobies it is making your brain go into nitpicking overload
michael
Cameron Kiefer
Michael - Thank you for the kind words and honest advice. Nevertheless, I must point out that "nitpicking" is one of the core values of our hobby. Only a community of nitpickers would count half steps on a Jefferson nickel, value a 68 at multiples of a 67 price, or even look at (much less actually use) Newcomb to attribute late date large cents.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
and i cant even see them when they point them out to me and i am looking at them with a 10x glass!!!
so i guess anything is possible with all the crazy stuff that is being collected at 10 to 1000 times the price raw vs. as far as the plastic is going
i guess there might be a big market of new collectors for these so designated dcam and cam coins
nothing surprises me in this market anymore
michael
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I don't know anything about what the services look for?? But doesn't it have to do with mirrors and the depth of mirror and not just contrast??
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
-YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
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Don't let it bother you. It takes a trained eye.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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<< <i>Don't let it bother you. It takes a trained eye. >>
Cameron Kiefer
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
No problem. More GEM VF25 DCAM's for me!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I wonder what this move by PCGS would lead to. Imagine what would happen to values. Imagine the things coin doctors would start doing. >>
Andy, exactly how is this more coin doctoring a positive thing?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Well, it's good for the doctors, it's good for the dealers that will promote the product, and for a while it will be good for the TPG's revenues. Not that any of that matters to me. Just answering your question.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Andy, exactly how is this more coin doctoring a positive thing?
Well, it's good for the doctors, it's good for the dealers that will promote the product, and for a while it will be good for the TPG's revenues. Not that any of that matters to me. Just answering your question. >>
That's I think exactly my point. If it's not a positive thing, why do it?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I didn't say "it's not a positive thing". I said, in effect, that it's not a positive thing for me.
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<< <i>That's I think exactly my point. If it's not a positive thing, why do it?
I didn't say "it's not a positive thing". I said, in effect, that it's not a positive thing for me. >>
OK, now I understand. Thank you for clarifying it for me, I was having difficulty understanding the reasoning.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
As silly as it may sound, there are many other collectors who enjoy original circulated coins with light devices and darker fields. We can tell when a coin has been messed with, and so can PCGS. I am willing to pay a premium for a circulated cameo VF or XF Barber coin over the typical monochrome gray one in the same grade, so PCGS might actually consider the designation of Circulated CAM. It remains to be seen whether the circulated CAM designation carries enough of a premium to cover the grading fees on enough lower grade circulated coins (and I have some circ. CAM G-4s)
However, I think it will be tough to write the standard between circulated CAM and circulated DCAM, but I expect this will be attempted in the next five years. If there's one thing that numismatists have in common, it's the ability to discern minute differences between coins and tell each other how to distinguish them. I can differentiate between AG 3.0, 3.3, 3.5, 3.7 and Good 4, in the coins I know best, (even when these differences usually don't translate into much higher or lower prices), so why couldn't PCGS draw the line between circulated CAM and circulated DCAM?
But I don't see the need for a designation. People who care to collect coins that look like this know what they look like and don't need a TPG to tell them that it looks a certain way. Or maybe some people do. I know I don't.
There's probably some selfish motivation to my position also... it might make it more expensive for me to collect coins that looked the way I like them to.
-Amanda
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<< <i>I love that look, it epitomizes eye appeal for me.
But I don't see the need for a designation. People who care to collect coins that look like this know what they look like and don't need a TPG to tell them that it looks a certain way. Or maybe some people do. I know I don't.
There's probably some selfish motivation to my position also... it might make it more expensive for me to collect coins that looked the way I like them to.
-Amanda >>
Thanks, Amanda
We both love that look, and neither of us needs a TPG to tell us when a coin has it (but others who can afford the plastic will eventually pay for the opinion of a TPG to say that their circulated coin has the extra oomph of eye appeal).
The question remains whether submitting better circulated coins for the elusive CAM or DCAM designation allows us to sell our best duplicates at a premium, or whether the proposed designations will simply make the coins with our favorite look more expensive. If circulated CAM coins are eventually established as better than a non-CAM with the same detail, some collectors will be able to cash in on their previous pickiness (like FH SLQ collectors, Red copper collectors, FBL Franklin collectors, etc. have been rewarded). Until circulated coins with the eye appeal we love becomes official, I'll continue to cherrypick these.
I've never seen a circulated coin appear with either-maybe with frosty devices, or really great eye appeal, but otherwise, other than proof-like morgans, I can't recall seeing any.
...and the term "circulated cameo" is coined by MrEureka!
Absolutely! A cameo is a cameo just as a PR-40 is a Proof! So should PL's as long as the contrast (cameo) or mirror (PL) is obvious. I have to laugh when we OBDM a Morgan and ignore coins with only the reverse deep mirror. I've been told the OBDM's are worth a little extra and that's why it is done.
I know I came up with the term independently of MrEureka (and maybe before him), but since this thread predates my own earliest mention of the term that I can find (my own 2006 thread about CircCams), it appears he gets the credit, as I have no evidence to back my claim to the term before 2006. I'll let the ANA know about the counterclaim.
Actually, I think you were about 25+ years too late.
Objective criteria have to be established for the reflectivity of fields, and that it is required for both sides. Then a simple test apparatus, such as dispersion of a collimated red laser beam 75-degrees to the surface at send and return distances of 250mm.
Once the rules are fixed, then any coin that meets the criteria for "PL" or "DMPL" should be given the appropriate title.
My response to this 14 year old thread is no.
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Give it some time. You'll come around.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I don't think that the term cameo should be designated/used (at least by a TPGS) for circulated coins. The term was originally intended for different types of surface characteristics and contrasts. I have no problem using the term 'circulated cameo' in a looser, general sense but just not by a TPGS, as it was meant for a frosty device and mirrored field contrast, which is a circulated cameo is not.
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I'll check this thread in another 14 years and let you know.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Would it be wrong to admit that this slipped off the list of things I was contemplating?
Would it be wrong to ask for an extension to further contemplate this question?
Seems the other question of choice and gem applying to a circulated grades to amplify the whole quality for the grade concept makes sense. I will vote for that today... Should have 14 years ago and I may have back then if the thread were found and directed TTT
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I disagree. You can see a cameo contrast (esp. on a DMPL) way down the circulated range. But I will agree we don't need it. I'd rather see the PL designation used for circ's.
"Cameo" as in jewelry, is a term applied to strong contrast between a design and the background. That is also how it is used among coin collectors. It should, therefore, apply equally to all coins that meet the technical criteria.