The Deepest, Darkest, Wet and Chalky PCGS PR69 DCAM 1971-S Kennedy Ever!
braddick
Posts: 23,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
braddick
Posts: 23,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
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REGISTRY COIN!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Boy, if Marty isn't doing it to Russ one way, he is giving it to him another!!! >>
What are friends for!
This is one of the coins I have been trying to make FOREVER! I have hit every combo around it... It is a very tough coin to get in this grade!
<< <i>OK, so I asked a question about these coins a couple weeks back and really didn't get an answer. I'll try again. We have here a modern coin in a very high holder selling for a ridiculous (to me) price. Give me the 67 PR CAM for $100 any day instead. Regardless, the bidding here appears to be broad and active and by all appearances this coin really IS worth $1500 or whatever it sells for. I do not see any indication of a one way market with stupid margins here. Perhaps someone could clarify which segments of the modern market trade with reasonable sanity (like this coin) and which don't? I only collect classics, just trying to educate myself here. >>
I too am primarilly a classics collector, but I dabble in 60s Proof Coins as an Income source to pay for the coins I want to collect. When collecting the classics, do you usually strive for the best quality coin you can? The highest grrades on rare coins? I know I would if money permitted... it is the same with Modern collectors. They strive for the best money can buy, in this case it's a common coin, in a rare grade. The coin itself may not have absolute rarity, but it is conditionally rare in such pristine condition. For me, and Marty, and others, the real fun, is not spending big bucks on these coins (Unless you are a registry collector), and searching for them, and then making the big $$...
42/92
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>If one buys the coin do they get the purple background also? >>
No, but it will come wrapped in purple bubblewrap...
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
FrederickCoinClub
Coinosaurus,
There are a handfull of coins in the Kennedy series that are truly special. For the proofs, it's a short list. The coins that command a large premium are the 64, the 64 AH, and the 71 in 69 DCam. What's so unusual about Marty's coin is that it is not from a die pair that usually produces the most contrasted coins. Most of the 71 Dcam coins came off a pair that is easily identifiable by a 5 degree CCW rotation of the reverse. The early die state obverse of this pair has a small burr in the right obverse field that appears as a pinhole, and most do not get in a 69 holder. There is another obverse that is well contrasted that always creates what looks like a hairline immediately behind the bust. There are many well contrasted coins with bird's nests of hairlines on the obverse. If you're lucky enough to find a perfect (to the naked eye) obverse paired with a fresh reverse and a good planchet, you'll find a coin like Marty's. What is SO frustrating about the Kennedy proof series is that it is quite easy in 69 Dcam with the exception of these few coins, and there is a huge collector base. Marty's coin is unusual in that it isn't from the more common die pairs. It appears to be a very early strike from a well prepared pair on a great planchet. PCGS has been tough on this date for years, but recently made a few as part of what I believe must have been a bulk submission. Several of these coins have been auctioned on Teletrade and Ebay recently, and several of the coins appear to have minute flaws on or around the shield. Perhaps they're taking a more liberal view of the coins, or perhaps the scans were bad, but I like Marty's coin better. It looks like a premium piece. I'll be surprised if it doesn't command a premium price. Spend a little time looking at the images of the coins that have been offered for sale over the last few years and you'll see why this one's special. Many are hazy, some have barely enough contrast to make the designation, and some have flaws. There are only a handful that are truly great coins, even in premium holders.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Camelot
Now have at it folks??
OK Jim, here goes. You're right. It IS smart to find one and holder it. The trouble is, if your time's worth anything, it's a losing proposition. Finding a coin like that one means looking at 5,000+ sets. Since it's impossible to discern a 68 from a 69 in digital pics, you've got to look in person. Add to that the difficulty of finding one at the top of the 69 Dcam food chain and the odds get tougher. I holdered the first two at NGC last year, and I'd be willing to bet I earned about 5¢ an hour looking. Good thing it's just a hobby. It took me 5 years, and I found them both in the same box. The 71 is kind of like the 59 Franklin in FBL 66. I'm not saying there aren't a few of those laying around raw, but if you started searching full time today, I'd figure you wouldn't uncover one this year. A collector building a top quality set probably already has a full-time job.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
$1,501.00
But, the thing that bothers me the most about this area of collecting is that it if werent for the Registry sets, and the fact that everybody is competing to have the highest graded coin under the plastic case, then prices would be no where close to the levels they trade at today. This is also true for earlier high grade common type as well, but not as much as the modern era stuff IMO. This may never happen, but what if one day the Registry program becomes a passing fad, then what? Your classic collector coins will still have collector demand, and so will your moderns, however, most people will select a very nice coin for each year and mintmark to complete thier set and it wont make much diference whether they have an Ms/PF-68 or 67, becuase there will be no competiton to have the best! Furthermore a majority of folks couldnt tell you the difference between a nice 67 or 68 much less 66. They depend on the label on the slab to let them know what the grade of the coin is? (In fact, I would be willing to bet that if you take a group of 20 people at random who collect high grade moderns and place 10 coins in various grades between 65 and 68 in front of them, only about 5 would get at least half correct, and then throw in designations such as CAM/DCAM and it would be even less.)
Also, PCGS as well as NGC create a stronger marketability for all coins modern and classic, this is ever more present in the earlier series, as well as key-dates becuase it gives buyers comfortability and assurance that what thier buying is the real deal and market acceptable. But in most cases, those coins will sell for what they are in the slab or out becuase they are what they are. However, many of these moderns only sell for the high dollar amounts becuase they are entombed in those plastic slabs with a grade on the front of the holder stating such. But out of the holder, even though sometimes they can be a slight bit nicer in appearance, are they worth 10 or 100x more compared to the next coin that may be a point lower in grade that only 5 of the 20 folks could tell the differnce in grade to start with??
jim
TeleTrade Coin.
Guess I better pay Russ for the coin I won from him so he can pay you.
The part of your post I disagree with is the assumption most modern collectors can't tell the difference in super-grade. Modern guys are used to looking at perfect. They know what that looks like. They might have trouble telling a mint state 67 from a 68, but put a dcam proof in their hands for a few minutes and they'll see a flaw if their is one.
Many classic coins behave just like moderns. Morgans are moderns in terms of condition rarity. A one point bump for MANY dates exceeds the price of a Kennedy registry set. The same is true for Peace dollars. Try the difference between 64 and 65 for a 25-S or 28-S. Most folks talk about moderns in generalities. When you get down to specifics within a series like the Kennedys, what looks like craziness to other collectors makes perfect sense to the set builders. There is good sense in the logic a PR68 Dcam is an attractive coin, and for most collectors, that may be good enough, but when you think about the number of modern set builders, it isn't too surprising to me that some want 69 Dcams, and know what perfect looks like. JMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>$1500+ for a proof 71-S Kennedy? Oh my... >>
Well, this Certified PR69 DCAM is only around $10. ...
And on a ten day auction, it's only got a day to go!
peacockcoins
BTW - I you get a chance, stop in and I'll buy you a cup of coffee and show you a Kennedy that may convert you.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
you said some interesting things in your above post, some that seem to me to be at odds with each other. this is the one that really surprised me because it's what i believe is a major cause of the ongoing Classic vs. Modern debate............Being a classic guy, its tuff to swallow sometimes the amount of money being spent on coins that appear to be so "everyday and new" at first glance, even though obviously they arent. i for one thank you for your frankness. now, for what confuses me............
the same things that confound you about Modern collecting habits/prices/Registry Sets are really the same things that take place in the Classic arena. the same games when going for the highest graded coins, the same crazy prices being paid for one, two or three point barely noticeable differences in grade---to the layman, at least---get played with classics. also, your assertion that classic coins will hold their value out of the holder while Moderns are always a loser is only marginally true, at least on the dealer "Lowball Express" Train. my experience tells me that the overwhelming majority of Coin Dealers in business today would go under if they had to rely on buying coins out of the holder, Classic and/or Modern.
one final point-----However, many of these moderns only sell for the high dollar amounts becuase they are entombed in those plastic slabs with a grade on the front of the holder stating such. But out of the holder, even though sometimes they can be a slight bit nicer in appearance, are they worth 10 or 100x more compared to the next coin that may be a point lower in grade that only 5 of the 20 folks could tell the differnce in grade to start with?? with regard to the Kennedy Proof Series, 3 of those five are here in the persons of MadMarty, Russ and DHeath.
trust me on that!!!!
that need to be mentioned. If you take a modern out of it's holder it is still the same
coin. While it really is difficult to sell for near full value without a holder it will still us-
ually go back into a holder of the same grade. Indeed, getting the same grade is pro-
bably a little likelier with moderns since surfaces tend to be less of an issue and fewer
moderns are "maxed out".
Also, the importance of the registries is often exaggerated and their nature can be mis-
understood. Many people "compete" in the registries only because they are collecting
the coins anyway. In the unlikely event that the registries were discontinued many peo-
ple would still collect exactly what they do.
Some of the scarcest moderns were getting "lots" of attention even before the grading
companies were started. The first Ike book was released in '85 and there were buyers
and sellers of Ikes and Kennedys as far back as 1980.
While I don't participate, condone, encourage, or suggest that people should pay extreme-
ly high prices for extremely high grade moderns, I do recognize that many of these are rare
and that collectors are paying prices which, in some cases, seem absurd to most collectors.
Whether these segments of the markets continue to grow or not is anyone's guess, but it
is a safe bet that there will be at least some activity in the collection of these coins for the
foreseeable future. These markets will continue to mature even if there is no new growth
in the collector base. The coins are a lot of fun to collect and you can take it from me that
collecting these raw in the highest grades is an incredible challenge. Due to the tendency for
many of the graded coins to just be absorbed by the market it is even difficult to collect them
already slabbed.