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Tracking a 1795 Half

Over the past few years this flowing hair with wild adjustment marks has been in an ANACS Net EF40/AU details holder ($3220), an NGC XF45 holder ($6037), and is now for sale in an NGC AU58 holder (est. value $12-15,000). Do you think it went to NCS, or one of their competitors, in between the 2 NGC slabs?

Comments

  • wow! I love the power of the internet. I bet it did go to NCS but it is hard to tell by those pictures. It sure does look whiter in the last auction then the first.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it just me or is that one butt ugly coin....
  • It proves "playing" the game works sometimes.
  • PreTurbPreTurb Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭
    This particular coin has shown up in about 10 auctions in the last 20 years. Its appearance has slightly changed (ie dipped) at least two times.

    If you want the gory details, PM me.
  • BladeBlade Posts: 1,744
    Oh yeah, it has been messed with. All the green stuff is gone. What thing looks like my cat used it as a scratching post. Nasty.
    Tom

    NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

    Type collector since 1981
    Current focus 1855 date type set
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭


    << <i>Is it just me or is that one butt ugly coin.... >>



    It's not just you.

  • ANACS should never have netted the coin in the first place. Adjustment marks are a part of the minting process.

    However, it is a sad commentary on the state of the hobby regarding the "gradeflation" on that particular coin. Really pathetic how the masses put so much faith into plastic.
    www.jaderarecoin.com - Updated 6/8/06. Many new coins added!

    Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!

  • .....and yes, the coin has been doctored along the way. Looked better before the dipping. Where's the posse?
    www.jaderarecoin.com - Updated 6/8/06. Many new coins added!

    Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
  • I agree that it looks worse as well. What was wrong (other than the grade, to the owner) with the look of the coin when it was in the XF-45 holder? I have very little experience with NCS, but this would lead you to believe that using NCS will lead to a grade bump, even if the coin looks worse!! image
  • Paul:

    Incredible work on the tracking of that coin. I have to e-mail you....

    -----------Lloyd

    I have written to others about my concern of the constant grade-flation. HOW can this coin be a net 40 with adjustment marks, (which of couse is not a reason to net grade), then go from a 45 to a 58???? I am grabbing my chest. It is getting to be ridiculous. THE COIN WAS NICEST IN THE ANACS SLAB.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,438 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not only do I like how it looked in the XF45 holder more then now I also like the grade on the holder much better.

    Jim
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it just me or is that one butt ugly coin..

    Let's just say that I'm glad that nobody publishes price guides for sight unseen quality AU 58 early type.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Sad.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • msch1manmsch1man Posts: 809 ✭✭✭✭
    As much as the consensus of the board seems to be against dipping coins with original skin (and I too thought it looked much better before) as long as a financial incentive exists to do it (as it appears that it does - I know, 12 - 15K is an estimate, but it appears it will go well over the previous 6K) I'm sure dipping will continue. You can't really blame a dealer either. I mean, if I was a dealer and I stood to make 6K by having a coin "conserved/dipped/whatever you want to call it", I'd be lying to you if I said that I wouldn't do it. Don't get mad at me (I'm not a dealer and never have/probably never will send a coin in to be "conserved"), I'm just being honest. I for one look at all recently graded NGC coins with a very skeptical eye...especially ones that just seem a bit too bright...as many gold pieces showing up in their holders recently seem to.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't look like adjustment marks to me.....looks like post-mint damage (ie: the highest points of the coin received the greatest damage).

    Agree it look buuttt ugly.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • How does the wear go from 40 to 58? Conserving a coin can improve the appearance, but what the heck happened here... image
    image
  • I love the Shylock eye! Great tracking.

    That coin looks dipped between the ANACS and first NGC holder. The dipping makes the "adjustment marks" more apparent so hurts the eye appeal for me, but not for the buyer it seems....

    BTW if I were adjusting the weight I would not want to ruin the look of the coin. Where are the adjustment marks on other coins? I'd rather adjust the reverse than the obverse.
  • PreTurbPreTurb Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭
    Want REALLY great tracking?

    Note - could have been had for $1840 in 1999....

    1) First known listing: Nov 19, 1936, J.C.Morgenthau
    2) AU50, (net VF30); "extensive adj mks obv", Jun 1988, B+M, Everson/Faught, Lot 2006, $2530
    3) MS60, "extensive adj mks obv", Sep 1988, Superior, Lee/Shaffer, Lot 4265, $2860
    4) AU50, "extensive adj mks obv", Jan 1992, B+M, Brilliant, Lot 23, $1210
    5) AU58, "heavy adj mks obv", Jul 1993, Heritage, ANA-Baltimore, Lot 5296, $4290
    6) EF45, "heavy adj mks obv", Nov 1999, B+M, Lindesmith/LaRiviere, Lot 2030, $1840
    7) SEGS-55, (SEGS: Adjustment Marks); "numerous adj mks obv", Aug 2001, Heritage, ANA-Atlanta, Lot 8851, $2818
    8) ANACS-40, (AU net Adjustment Marks); "adj mks obv", Feb 2002, Heritage, Long Beach, Lot 5725, $3335
    9) ANACS-40, (AU net Adjustment Marks); "adj mks obv, green-gold and lavender patina", Jun 2002, Heritage, Long Beach, Lot 7180, $3220
    10) NGC-45, "heavy adjustment mks obv", Nov 2003, Heritage, New York, Lot 6593, $6038
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You know what? Those adjustment marks bug, regardless of the grade on the ticket, I'd be looking for a different coin.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the big deal? The coin speaks for itself. It's minimally worn and heavily adjusted. And now dipped. But other than the dip, nothing has really changed except words and numbers. But we all know it's only the coin that matters.

    Now, on the other hand, it WOULD be a big deal if this were the "Plastic Forum" and not the "Coin Forum". (Sorry, Dorkkarl made me say it. image )

    BTW, great thread!
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Early American Coin Auction? image

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    4) AU50, "extensive adj mks obv", Jan 1992, B+M, Brilliant, Lot 23, $1210

    Maybe coins have been a better investment than some people realize?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • I Like the coin, problems and all I wouldnt mind owning it... before it was doctored to crap that is.
    image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Early American Coin Auction? Ok.

    Roadrunner - Not fair to EACA. The coin is in an NGC holder and could have been consigned anywhere else with a similar write-up.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • Mr Eureka says:

    <- 4) AU50, "extensive adj mks obv", Jan 1992, B+M, Brilliant, Lot 23, $1210-

    Maybe coins have been a better investment than some people realize?>

    That is selective picking of PreTurb's data who also notes:

    <AU50, (net VF30); "extensive adj mks obv", Jun 1988, B+M, Everson/Faught, Lot 2006, $2530>

    Anybody should be able to double their money since 1988.....
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anybody should be able to double their money since 1988.....

    Carl - Wanna short me the 1795 at double it's 1988 price?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • <Carl - Wanna short me the 1795 at double it's 1988 price?>

    No.

    In 1988 I was working hard and in debt. It was month to month, hand to mouth, 60 hours a week of work. Since then I've had most investments go bust, but I was able to land two jobs with start up companies that succeeded. So I now have the luxury to work for almost nothing selling coins part time from my home and to be happy to delline your offer because that coin is ugly.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In 1988 I was working hard and in debt. It was month to month, hand to mouth, 60 hours a week of work. Since then I've had most investments go bust, but I was able to land two jobs with start up companies that succeeded. So I now have the luxury to work for almost nothing selling coins part time from my home and to be happy to delline your offer because that coin is ugly.

    Carl - OK, since you're rich now, I'll have to pay more. How about shorting me the coin for triple the 1988 price?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • I thought the various auction descriptions PreTurb listed were more consistent than one could have reasonably expected for a coin that is obviously prone to some subjectivity.



  • This is just an extreem example of the old arguement between "market acceptable" and "technical" grading. I really think this coin is a great historic and rare example that once showed the early coining process. To bad some idiot dipped away a part of that history and NGC and the market encourages this greedy slime-ball behavior. Interesting pricing histories too.
    morgannut2
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    PreTurb - wow, thanks for the expanded history. I was hoping someone would recognize it and share more of its past but I wasn't expecting 15 years! Too bad all coins can't tell us their secrets like this one can.
  • If PCGS and NGC put a laser microscopic registry number on the edge of coins like is put on most G.I.A. diamonds now, perhaps it would slow the efforts to dip or "conserve" (f*^K up) many old rarities where the owner tries to squeek out that last upgrade for the big bucks. We'd all know the history and bid accordingly.
    morgannut2
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If PCGS and NGC put a laser microscopic registry number on the edge of coins like is put on most G.I.A. diamonds now, perhaps it would slow the efforts to dip or "conserve" (f*^K up) many old rarities where the owner tries to squeek out that last upgrade for the big bucks. We'd all know the history and bid accordingly.

    Any good coin doctor should be able to figure out how to remove a lasered serial number from a coin's edge.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.


  • << <i>BTW if I were adjusting the weight I would not want to ruin the look of the coin. Where are the adjustment marks on other coins? I'd rather adjust the reverse than the obverse. >>


    The adjustments are done to the planchet before striking. Wheter the adjustments show up on the obverse, reverse or both depends on how the planchet happens to land between the dies.

    And these are adjustment marks, not post mint damage. Yes they are stronger on the devices and that would be true either way. But the weaker marks in the fields continue all the way up to the edge (and on up) of the devices. If it was post mint damage the file would "bridge" between the devices and the fields a little way out from the devices and the scrape marks would not go all the way to the devices.
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PreTurb, image

    An expert who has most Flowing Hair die marriages says that about 25% of FH half dollars have adjustment marks, usually much lighter than this example. The Draped Bust series has less adjustment marks and it appears they used finer files in these years, as varieties such as 1806 O.107 often have fine adjustment marks in the reverse clouds and stars, an area that was never struck solidly to press out the adjustment marks. Adjustment marks are much less common with Capped Bust Halves. Women did the filing of the planchents in the US Mint's "adjustment room".

    I would have liked to own this coin before it was dipped as an example of extreme adjustment marks, it also has one of the highest technical grades of this rare variety. Too bad it was needlessly dipped for a profit motive.

    Bill
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Here's the 2001 SEGS AU55 version of the coin on PreTurb's list, it was listed with "other coins" by Heritage and doesn't show up in an early half dollar search: $2817
  • I have enjoyed this thread. Thanks for the info. I definately like the coin better before dipping as the bright "flashy" coin makes the marks so much more obvious. Still if I were the owner I would be a seller at the estimated price range of $12-$15 K.
  • DrWhoDrWho Posts: 562 ✭✭
    can I ask ya'll a bit of a question, and please take no offense.

    the coin got to AU58, and has been cracked out a 'few' times.

    is/was there any potential that she got to 58, due to an 'influential' submitter, as opposed to a bit of grading 'leeway' due to its age/date?
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it just me or is that one butt ugly coin....

    No, you are both "butt ugly". image

    Kidding aside, I would not be interested in a coin with adjustment marks on the obverse, especially on the portrait. When they are on the reverse, and not too conspicuous, I think that they add some old-time history and charm.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    May all your crusty gold be NCS'd....

    image
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    May all your crusty gold be NCS'd....

    Ouch! image
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One more auction appearance for the coin that can't find a home, Bowers and Merena 7/04 lot 598 NGC AU58, dipped, did not sell. The current auction estimate is a dream.

    Bill
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver

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