coins is like eating in a restaurant if you ever saw what goes on in the kitchen you would never eat out anywhere but you still go out to eat and it is fun and tasty and many many have not died yet from the experience and it will continue to go on till the end of time
<< <i>coins is like eating in a restaurant if you ever saw what goes on in the kitchen you would never eat out anywhere but you still go out to eat and it is fun and tasty and many many have not died yet from the experience and it will continue to go on till the end of time
michael >>
Exactly. It's a veritable smorgasbord. Some people even like the brussel sprouts and the chicken fried steak.
There's no accounting for taste and as long as people survive their experience many will be back.
Hi stman! Glad to see you're in good health and not suffering from any terminal diseases or anything. I could handle the truth if somebody had the nerve to tell it but all we get is a lot of innuendo and teasers so I guess I’ll never have to worry about it. It wouldn't rock my world or anything, it just confirm what I think I already know.
ps I don't know what the big secret is all about. I make a LOT of $$$$ in the building contracting biz and I'll gladly share our trade secrets. Prolly put everybody to sleep though because we have to be licensed, bonded, insured, and every deal has to be permited & inspected. Keeps us honest and delivering a safe & quality finished product to our customers.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
coins is like eating in a restaurant if you ever saw what goes on in the kitchen you would never eat out anywhere but you still go out to eat and it is fun and tasty and many many have not died yet from the experience and it will continue to go on till the end of time
LOLOL excellent Michael !!!!!!!
I would respond in more detail to Anaconda's comments regarding the questions I raised, but I have no interest in getting into a sparring match with him (or anyone else for that matter). That is why I rarely post here anymore. However, I stand by what I wrote, and my questions are not as easily answered or dismissed as someone might have you believe.
P.S. I am never "dealer-bashing." I like a lot of dealers, in fact I have gotten on quite well with most of those whom I have dealt with. As HRH once wrote here, "There have always been good guys and bad guys."
<< <i>I think there are much more interesting truths than those you mentioned. Such as: ownership stakes in, and inner workings of, the grading services; the volume of crackouts, resubmissions, conservation, etc. How much dealers really score in gross margins; how many pros rely on upgrades rather than resales for profit. What terms are negotiated by big consignors to auctions; how many lots in Heritage and Stack's and other auctions are actually owned or controlled by the auction house; where all the fresh white pop-top PCGS-certified inventory at certain well-connected dealers really comes from (modrens and classics); how often coins are recycled from dealer to dealer to dealer before they find a home in strong hands. How much dealer inventory is really consigned by other dealers or collectors. How wholesale buyers screw the crap out of less-informed sellers. How bids are manipulated at auctions, in the Greysheets; who controls pricing in the guide books; how distorted are the pop reports. Wouldn't it be nice to know every holder that a particular coin ever resided in? I bet some coins have shocking histories. >>
Methinks Sunnywood has been around the block a few times.
<< <i>The SEC and NASD for the Securities Industry really didn't show up for over 100 years after the Buttonwood agreement on Wall Street. Those of us who work in regulated investment industries laugh when we see some of the stuff that goes on in our hobby and industry. Unbelievable! >>
Please let not get the kind of great govenment oversite that allowed trillions of dollars to be defrauded from stock investors in the last 6-7 years by Wall street brokers who took payola to promote stocks they knew were worth little, CEOs who inflated earnings to get huge options, Mutual funds that made "after hours "transactions and all the other shady deals that have gone on under the eyes of the "regulators" . Now that millions have lost thier savings with the great NASDAQ crash we see some of the major brokers etc paying thier nickel and dime fines.
We don't need that kind of regulation, at least we know that its "buyer beware" in the coin business rather than rely on the wonderful regulators to save us from the thieves. If the stock market is an example of how we can be "regulator protected" from the brokers/dealers we certainly can do without it.
OH, and P.S. - I love collecting coins !!! Like it all, the auctions, the shows, the people, the grading services (I wouldn't touch the hobby with a ten foot pole if it was still like it was in the 70's). Oh, maybe with the exception of one or two mean-spirited people who effectively chased me off these Boards last year.
And another truth is, the degree of large-scale fraud, larceny and embezzlement perpetrated against the shareholding public is vastly greater at America's large publicly-held companies (whose executives routinely pay themselves vast sums and manage the companies to maximize their own profit, not necessarily that of the shareholders) than it is in the coin industry !!!!
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has coins. And those coins have to be sold by coin dealers with inside info. Who's gonna do it? You? You, stman? Coin insiders have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for moderns and you curse the coin dealers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that modern's death, while tragic, probably saved collectors. And coin dealers' existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves collectors...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want coin dealers on that wall. You need coin dealers on that wall.
I think the biggest threat to the coin industry is the oldest profession, prostitution. More and more young women are coming to coin shows and expecting unrealisitic discounts, and when they can't get them, I guess their "Plan B" is to offer to spend a little quality time with you after the show. The next day of course the coin changes hand, with the requested discount. I have seen this go on more times than I care to share in this forum, and I just don't think it is good for the hobby.
I still want to know how prostitution and the coin industry work together........
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
The truth is out there. I think just about every issue possible has been discussed on the boards at some time except maybe the prostitutes at coins shows.
You want truth? I'll give you the truth. And then you just might wish you never heard the truth.
The truth is that like in all human and natural endeavors the future is determined by the present. Insiders are the ones who can see what it is the collectors and big buyers want. They are the ones who know how others are making money in the hobby and they are the ones who have customers for the most coins. Frequently these will be big customers who can absorb a hundred bags of unc Morgans without batting an eye. Do you have a bag set of modern proofs? They've got a customer. These guys also know about some of the less straight forward ways that some people are making money from selling large amounts of supplies to enhancing the look of a coin.
The sun will come up tomorrow and there will still be people collecting coins and people making money from assisting them. Most all of them will just be doing what they think is right and/ or what will make them some money. But it always comes down to the collector and the big boys will always cater to the collector or they'll find it hard to make money.
I'm attending the wrong shows . . . in my neck of the woods, the sighting of anyone of the fairer gender at a show is a rarity greater than a stone white Morgan that hasn't been worked . . .
OK . . I'll buy it. I've just lived a coin-protected life up to now.
So, someone has "known" of hookers at coin shows "assisting" dealers in "consumating" coin deals?
This went on the 80's?
I've been to a few coin shows over the past 20 years and have never seen a girl that looked like a hooker sitting behind a table. (Don't hookers generally wear a lot of blue eye shadow and really short skirts with really high heels? I think smoking and chewing gum with their mouths open is also indicia of hookerism.)
Is there anyone else that can confirm this phenomenon of hookers at coin shows?
<< <i>This is not a hobby to dealers. Its all about money. And where there is money, there is greed and other lovely things. I'll state this: if you can imagine it, then probably has or does happen. But the same holds true for ANY buisness. Some questions are better off NOT answered. >>
Funny, it all becomes moot when you buy the coin, not the representation of the coin. (Representations are are found on slab inserts, in price guides and sales brochures, among other places.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Is there anyone else that can confirm this phenomenon of hookers at coin shows? >>
They prefer to be called professional escorts --- and no, the whole blue eye shadow/gum chewing/smoking thing is a bad rumor.
And they can usually be found in the hotel bars. Any convention involving old guys draws'em in like flies. Ever been to Vegas during a convention. At some hotel bars, you can't throw a AT Morgan without hitting at least 3 or 4.
I've seen a couple of "hired" girls on the bourse, but they probably aren't escorts -- just hired eye candy. A lot of out-of-work models/actress types pick up this type of work in LA.
Funny, it all becomes moot when you buy the coin, not the representation of the coin. (Representations are are found on slab inserts, in price guides and sales brochures, among other places.)
Very wise thing to say, and very well expressed; bears repeating.
Some things never change. I try to buy coins from people I know and trust. When I am thinking of buying a coin from someone else, I get a second opinion re the coin from someone I trust. IMO, the only time I've gotten screwed on a coin, it was MY fault, I didn't look at it carefully enough.
The comment re coin collecting pre TPGs is right on. I was there. The coin was always a grade better when it was sold to you than when you tried to sell it. People were even whizzing and baking $1 to $5 coins. You had to look though far more coins than you do now to find one that was acceptable. And finding a real, say, 1916 D dime was a coin collector's trial by ordeal.
Yes, there is "eye candy" at shows. A year or so ago at a major show, I saw a young woman whose top didn't cover very much at one dealer's booth. I have no idea what kind of coins he was selling, but every horny old guy was over there "looking at his coins." Right.
Re the comment about the stock market, many of the people who sold those funds, pumped up earnings of a company, etc. et. al. are now either in the Big House, or are currently on trial. One of the Enron VPs was found guilty in a courtroom last week. A number of former high fliers aren't flying so high any longer. An exec at Dynergy is doing 20 years. Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling are on trial (Enron). Scrushy is on trial (Healthsouth). I think Rigas is in jail. Ditto re Bernie Ebbers.
Accounting firms involved with SEC work now have onerous new laws to contend with (Sarabens--Oxley). Arthur Anderson is no more. Working at the big International firms is not the gold nugget on a resume that it was 20 years ago.
At some point in time, some people in numismatics will get too greedy, some people will lose too much money and complain, and there will be government regulation. I am a CPA. On the whole, we're a fairly reputable bunch. And we're very regulated. If it happened to us, it will happen here.
Sure, it's often a matter of expert opinion whether a particular coin is an MS 64 or an MS 65. But I think most experts can tell the difference between, and agree re say, an MS 65 and an MS 63 in most series of coins. If someone knowingly has an expensive coin which was recently doctored and tries to pass it off to an unsuspecting party, that's fraud. Numismatics is a small world. Everyone knows everyone else.
I have a general idea of what goes on. Unfortunately, in any group of people, it takes the fear of "getting caught" to keep far too many people honest.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I would imagine its true although I have never seen it at the few shows I have attended. I guess sometimes its tough to sell some of that excess inventory!
Seriously, I imagine there is much that is better left unsaid. I remember when I was a kid and collected/dealt in stamps, I was turned off by the large amount of reperforating and regumming that occurred yet we had a third party certification service called the PFC which authenticated (but did not grade) stamps. I gave up the hobby when it became a turnoff.
I have seen coins that have been doctored and still made into NGC and PCGS slabs. I just try to own coins that are original, have the skin, and have eye appeal beyond just the grade.
We have a long way to go in this market. Gold will hit new highs for the next few years as we are in a secular bull market in gold and a secular bear market in the dollar. If you don't know what a secular market, you should!
I believe you will see common dated MS65 Saints at more than $3000 before we are done and gold approaching four figures......
I hope you are right on your prognostications concerning the price of gold. I tend to agree with you, but we have heard the gold bug littany for over 20 years. Contrarians are never called in on the carpet for goofy predictions. They just surface over and over and over again!
Well I am not really a gold bug but rather just an investor and looking at it logically one has to wonder HOW our government, in their infinite wisdom, plans to fund the deficit spending that is going on. Are they going to raise taxes to pay the bill? I think not......Are they going to pay the debt back with printed dollars? It makes the most sense although we have Mr. Greenspan that is Mr. Anti-Inflation. It just makes sense that the dollar MUST fall and that this lower valued dollar will be used to repay the debt. Gold protects against that and even a U.S. based asset like real estate may not be enough to protect against currency loss. I like the idea of tangible assets NOW.
Comments
michael
<< <i>coins is like eating in a restaurant if you ever saw what goes on in the kitchen you would never eat out anywhere but you still go out to eat and it is fun and tasty and many many have not died yet from the experience and it will continue to go on till the end of time
michael >>
Exactly. It's a veritable smorgasbord. Some people even like the brussel sprouts and the chicken fried steak.
There's no accounting for taste and as long as people survive their experience many will be back.
Glad to see you're in good health and not suffering from any terminal diseases or anything.
I could handle the truth if somebody had the nerve to tell it but all we get is a lot of innuendo and teasers so I guess I’ll never have to worry about it.
It wouldn't rock my world or anything, it just confirm what I think I already know.
ps I don't know what the big secret is all about. I make a LOT of $$$$ in the building contracting biz and I'll gladly share our trade secrets. Prolly put everybody to sleep though because we have to be licensed, bonded, insured, and every deal has to be permited & inspected. Keeps us honest and delivering a safe & quality finished product to our customers.
LOLOL excellent Michael !!!!!!!
I would respond in more detail to Anaconda's comments regarding the questions I raised, but I have no interest in getting into a sparring match with him (or anyone else for that matter). That is why I rarely post here anymore. However, I stand by what I wrote, and my questions are not as easily answered or dismissed as someone might have you believe.
P.S. I am never "dealer-bashing." I like a lot of dealers, in fact I have gotten on quite well with most of those whom I have dealt with. As HRH once wrote here, "There have always been good guys and bad guys."
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I think there are much more interesting truths than those you mentioned. Such as: ownership stakes in, and inner workings of, the grading services; the volume of crackouts, resubmissions, conservation, etc. How much dealers really score in gross margins; how many pros rely on upgrades rather than resales for profit. What terms are negotiated by big consignors to auctions; how many lots in Heritage and Stack's and other auctions are actually owned or controlled by the auction house; where all the fresh white pop-top PCGS-certified inventory at certain well-connected dealers really comes from (modrens and classics); how often coins are recycled from dealer to dealer to dealer before they find a home in strong hands. How much dealer inventory is really consigned by other dealers or collectors. How wholesale buyers screw the crap out of less-informed sellers. How bids are manipulated at auctions, in the Greysheets; who controls pricing in the guide books; how distorted are the pop reports. Wouldn't it be nice to know every holder that a particular coin ever resided in? I bet some coins have shocking histories. >>
Methinks Sunnywood has been around the block a few times.
<< <i>The SEC and NASD for the Securities Industry really didn't show up for over 100 years after the Buttonwood agreement on Wall Street. Those of us who work in regulated investment industries laugh when we see some of the stuff that goes on in our hobby and industry. Unbelievable! >>
Please let not get the kind of great govenment oversite that allowed trillions of dollars to be defrauded from stock investors in the last 6-7 years by Wall street brokers who took payola to promote stocks they knew were worth little, CEOs who inflated earnings to get huge options, Mutual funds that made "after hours "transactions and all the other shady deals that have gone on under the eyes of the "regulators" . Now that millions have lost thier savings with the great NASDAQ crash we see some of the major brokers etc paying thier nickel and dime fines.
We don't need that kind of regulation, at least we know that its "buyer beware" in the coin business rather than rely on the wonderful regulators to save us from the thieves. If the stock market is an example of how we can be "regulator protected" from the brokers/dealers we certainly can do without it.
And another truth is, the degree of large-scale fraud, larceny and embezzlement perpetrated against the shareholding public is vastly greater at America's large publicly-held companies (whose executives routinely pay themselves vast sums and manage the companies to maximize their own profit, not necessarily that of the shareholders) than it is in the coin industry !!!!
So, all in all, I'd rather buy coins !!
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
TPN
I still want to know how prostitution and the coin industry work together........
The truth is that like in all human and natural endeavors the future is determined by the present.
Insiders are the ones who can see what it is the collectors and big buyers want. They are the ones
who know how others are making money in the hobby and they are the ones who have customers
for the most coins. Frequently these will be big customers who can absorb a hundred bags of unc
Morgans without batting an eye. Do you have a bag set of modern proofs? They've got a customer.
These guys also know about some of the less straight forward ways that some people are making
money from selling large amounts of supplies to enhancing the look of a coin.
The sun will come up tomorrow and there will still be people collecting coins and people making money
from assisting them. Most all of them will just be doing what they think is right and/ or what will make
them some money. But it always comes down to the collector and the big boys will always cater to the
collector or they'll find it hard to make money.
It may be pretty boring but it is the truth.
My $10 Indian Gold Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
<< <i>There are prostitutes at the coin shows? >>
You dang betcha.
I'm attending the wrong shows . . . in my neck of the woods, the sighting of anyone of the fairer gender at a show is a rarity greater than a stone white Morgan that hasn't been worked . . .
OK . . I'll buy it. I've just lived a coin-protected life up to now.
DRUNNER
I think that stman should not be taken away against his will.
He should be talked into going. It could be done. By a professional, of course.
This went on the 80's?
I've been to a few coin shows over the past 20 years and have never seen a girl that looked like a hooker sitting behind a table. (Don't hookers generally wear a lot of blue eye shadow and really short skirts with really high heels? I think smoking and chewing gum with their mouths open is also indicia of hookerism.)
Is there anyone else that can confirm this phenomenon of hookers at coin shows?
(Has Bowers written anything on this?)
Russ, NCNE
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This is not a hobby to dealers. Its all about money. And where there is money, there is greed and other lovely things. I'll state this: if you can imagine it, then probably has or does happen. But the same holds true for ANY buisness. Some questions are better off NOT answered. >>
And this is why I never eat at Taco Bell.
peacockcoins
Funny, it all becomes moot when you buy the coin, not the representation of the coin. (Representations are are found on slab inserts, in price guides and sales brochures, among other places.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Is there anyone else that can confirm this phenomenon of hookers at coin shows? >>
They prefer to be called professional escorts --- and no, the whole blue eye shadow/gum chewing/smoking thing is a bad rumor.
And they can usually be found in the hotel bars. Any convention involving old guys draws'em in like flies. Ever been to Vegas during a convention. At some hotel bars, you can't throw a AT Morgan without hitting at least 3 or 4.
I've seen a couple of "hired" girls on the bourse, but they probably aren't escorts -- just hired eye candy. A lot of out-of-work models/actress types pick up this type of work in LA.
TPN
Very wise thing to say, and very well expressed; bears repeating.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I used to work at taco bell when I was a youngin'- you're better off not eating there..........
The comment re coin collecting pre TPGs is right on. I was there. The coin was always a grade better when it was sold to you than when you tried to sell it. People were even whizzing and baking $1 to $5 coins. You had to look though far more coins than you do now to find one that was acceptable. And finding a real, say, 1916 D dime was a coin collector's trial by ordeal.
Yes, there is "eye candy" at shows. A year or so ago at a major show, I saw a young woman whose top didn't cover very much at one dealer's booth. I have no idea what kind of coins he was selling, but every horny old guy was over there "looking at his coins." Right.
Re the comment about the stock market, many of the people who sold those funds, pumped up earnings of a company, etc. et. al. are now either in the Big House, or are currently on trial. One of the Enron VPs was found guilty in a courtroom last week. A number of former high fliers aren't flying so high any longer. An exec at Dynergy is doing 20 years. Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling are on trial (Enron). Scrushy is on trial (Healthsouth). I think Rigas is in jail. Ditto re Bernie Ebbers.
Accounting firms involved with SEC work now have onerous new laws to contend with (Sarabens--Oxley). Arthur Anderson is no more. Working at the big International firms is not the gold nugget on a resume that it was 20 years ago.
At some point in time, some people in numismatics will get too greedy, some people will lose too much money and complain, and there will be government regulation. I am a CPA. On the whole, we're a fairly reputable bunch. And we're very regulated. If it happened to us, it will happen here.
Sure, it's often a matter of expert opinion whether a particular coin is an MS 64 or an MS 65. But I think most experts can tell the difference between, and agree re say, an MS 65 and an MS 63 in most series of coins. If someone knowingly has an expensive coin which was recently doctored and tries to pass it off to an unsuspecting party, that's fraud. Numismatics is a small world. Everyone knows everyone else.
I have a general idea of what goes on. Unfortunately, in any group of people, it takes the fear of "getting caught" to keep far too many people honest.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You was a young woman?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Seriously, I imagine there is much that is better left unsaid. I remember when I was a kid and collected/dealt in stamps, I was turned off by the large amount of reperforating and regumming that occurred yet we had a third party certification service called the PFC which authenticated (but did not grade) stamps. I gave up the hobby when it became a turnoff.
I have seen coins that have been doctored and still made into NGC and PCGS slabs. I just try to own coins that are original, have the skin, and have eye appeal beyond just the grade.
We have a long way to go in this market. Gold will hit new highs for the next few years as we are in a secular bull market in gold and a secular bear market in the dollar. If you don't know what a secular market, you should!
I believe you will see common dated MS65 Saints at more than $3000 before we are done and gold approaching four figures......
My $10 Indian Gold Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set