HOW do you keep "investment" or "price" ..OUT...of your collection?
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
Serious question. I ....can...... remember when I first started how I was "happy" with cleaned coins, worn coins, ANY coins. Just so long as they had interesting designs and were new to me.
Then I looked at "other" coins. They were so neat that I wanted mine to look like those. So I began upgrading with the concomitant sales of the ones that WERE ok but not to my NEW eye.
And with that came the learning of who would pay "more" for what I didn't want and who would cut me a deal on what I did want.
Then it progressed to the point that (at that time) my coin collection was worth more than anything else I owned. That caused me to start thinking how with only my effort and my eye, I was able to have a very valuable asset.
The coins still stayed "neat" but the additional factor of being priced "right" also crept into the equation.
I still have a certain remnant of that old appreciation for just any old coin, but will not PURCHASE one as I have felt the sting of monetary loss when I wanted to get rid of it and get a "neater" coin.
I admire those who are content with whatever strikes their fancy but can't see how it works anymore in actual practice.
Would any of you who are NOT concerned with the "investment" aspect of your coins ....knowingly..... pay twice what a new coin is "worth" to get it? And if not, why not if the price is not a factor?
Then I looked at "other" coins. They were so neat that I wanted mine to look like those. So I began upgrading with the concomitant sales of the ones that WERE ok but not to my NEW eye.
And with that came the learning of who would pay "more" for what I didn't want and who would cut me a deal on what I did want.
Then it progressed to the point that (at that time) my coin collection was worth more than anything else I owned. That caused me to start thinking how with only my effort and my eye, I was able to have a very valuable asset.
The coins still stayed "neat" but the additional factor of being priced "right" also crept into the equation.
I still have a certain remnant of that old appreciation for just any old coin, but will not PURCHASE one as I have felt the sting of monetary loss when I wanted to get rid of it and get a "neater" coin.
I admire those who are content with whatever strikes their fancy but can't see how it works anymore in actual practice.
Would any of you who are NOT concerned with the "investment" aspect of your coins ....knowingly..... pay twice what a new coin is "worth" to get it? And if not, why not if the price is not a factor?
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Comments
Jim
When I say "what it's 'worth'" I am attempting to base that on an assumption that whatever you pay is twice what anyone would pay YOU to get it.
My experience is that an "overpriced" coin is an eventual source of misery which may not be realized as long as one retains it. But, if that matters not then the collector is indeed not interested in "price" at all.
I contend that covers very few and I will submit that the lack of response to the original question is a prima facie agreement with the position that almost NO ONE is complacent about the investment part of their collection regardless of any comments to the contrary.
.........Spreem kort just us, topstuf
If one is a true "collector", then price really doesn't matter. But few of us are true collectors. There's just enough of the investor in all of us to be worried about overpaying for something, usually.
We're all hybrid collector/investor types, but in varying degrees. And speaking for myself, it depends on which of my many interests happens to be at the forefront in a given time. If I happen to be pursuing a whimsical project like the holey coins, then I'm not as concerned with price, though I seldom spend a lot of money on it. If I am pursuing a more "serious" project, then the "investor" in me comes out a little more.
First of all, you had very few responses until now since we working stiffs (including owners) had to work this afternoon to make enough money to buy our coins for the month!
Now then; back to the thread's question:
I have always maintained that as collectors, we owe it to our families not to throw away our money in a grossly negligent way when buying coins. It has nothing to do with "investment" at that point. Investment implies the potential of making a PROFIT. That is not what you are talking about. You are talking about not throwing away your hard earned money.
On the other had, no one likes to be "taken." No one likes to find out that they overpaid for any coin they bought unless they knew it at the time they bought it. Sure, it might indeed be a learning experience, an educational experience but we do not want to keep learning from repetitive mistakes, rather just avoid them in the future.
Sure, we can enjoy the hobby while overpaying for our coins but we can also enjoy the hobby at the same time being careful with our purchases. It is not mandated that we MUST overpay for our coins and disregard prices just to enjoy the hobby.
Indeed, we do suffer a loss of childlike "innocence" when we begin to be "guarded" every time we buy coins to make sure we are not overpaying for the coin or buying an overgraded coin without our knowledge. It does take a little bit of the innocence out of the hobby.
Here is one way how to bring back the joy of collecting into the hobby:
Buy circulated rolls from your local bank and search through them. Enjoy the one wheat cent you find even if you only find 1 in $100 worth of face value cents. ENJOY IT!
<< <i>Okay, since this thread is so overwhelmingly popular, we can define our semantics.
When I say "what it's 'worth'" I am attempting to base that on an assumption that whatever you pay is twice what anyone would pay YOU to get it.
My experience is that an "overpriced" coin is an eventual source of misery which may not be realized as long as one retains it. But, if that matters not then the collector is indeed not interested in "price" at all.
I contend that covers very few and I will submit that the lack of response to the original question is a prima facie agreement with the position that almost NO ONE is complacent about the investment part of their collection regardless of any comments to the contrary.
.........Spreem kort just us, topstuf >>
Okay, now we are getting somewhere...Could I get back what I paid for my bust half collection in a forced sale? Not even close...I would be lucky to get back 20 cents on the dollar. That honestly doesn't bother me since they will never (at least in my lifetime) be for sale. By the same token, I only use "playing around" money to buy them. Were I trying to make money at this it wouldn't be a hobby anymore.
collection, the greater concern one has for its value and the ability to sell the
collection if needs be for a reasonable return on investment. You view a collection differently
when you have under 1,000 dollars in it from a collection where you have 25, 50 or 100 thousand
dollars in it. While it is a hobby, it never the less represents a significant part of assets and must be
handled as such.
Camelot
Bill
<< <i>HOW do you keep "investment" or "price" ..OUT...of your collection? >>
the answer is & always has been very simple. you just need to know 1 thing, & totally commit to believing in it:
if you like the coin, if you really REALLY like it, then the price does not matter.
IF, & that's a BIG IF, you are honest w/ yourself, then this advice will NEVER fail you.
K S
Statements like this I can't agree with.
<< <i>No, it's not possible to pay twice what a coin is worth since by definition it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. >>
A coin is NOT worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If there are 20 identical coins selling for half that price then you PAID TWICE what it is worth.
I keep close track of what I pay for my coins and hope to make $$ when I sell. This is an investment as well as a hobby. My fractional currency collection is different. I don't keep track of what I paid because I don't wish to view them based on the "cost" or "value". I do however hope to someday get a decent return but I don't plan to sell anytime in the next 20 years.
Best advice, don't keep track of what you paid and don't look them up in the price guides. Look at them as they no longer have monetary value because they are now part of your estate. I get much more enjoyment that way.
I agree wholeheartedly with Oreville - we each have a responsibility to our families to ensure that we aren't just flushing our money away.
WS
Warren Buffet has a large posistion in silver bullion i believe !
Dorkkarl - Using that logic, it would be smart to pay 100 times what you think a coin should sell for, just because you like it. I know that can't be what you mean, so please explain your position in greater depth.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>if you like the coin, if you really REALLY like it, then the price does not matter. IF, & that's a BIG IF, you are honest w/ yourself, then this advice will NEVER fail you.
Dorkkarl - Using that logic, it would be smart to pay 100 times what you think a coin should sell for, just because you like it. I know that can't be what you mean, so please explain your position in greater depth. >>
i contend that if you pay 100 times trends for a coin, but you get 9,999 time trends worth of enjoyment out of owning it, then it was a he11uva buy
K S
Would I knowingly pay twice a coins "worth" if I really wanted it? Yes, I have done so and will most likely do so again. The only reason I do try not to overpay is so I have the money to buy even more coins. If it is a common piece that I see a lot of and I know it will be easy to get another one then I will probably pass. But if it may be a long time before I have another chance to acquire the coin then I am much more likely to "overpay".
<< <i>I have always maintained that as collectors, we owe it to our families not to throw away our money in a grossly negligent way when buying coins. <snip> You are talking about not throwing away your hard earned money. >>
Why? It's my hard earned money and I will enjoy it any way I chose. Once any family responsibilities or obligations have been taken care of, I don't OWE my family one stinking dime of my entertainment money. If after I die they get some from the sale of my collection then its a bonus for them. I DO NOT owe it to them. So I don't care how much or how little they get for my coins.
<< <i>no one likes to be "taken." No one likes to find out that they overpaid for any coin they bought unless they knew it at the time they bought it. >>
Agreed, but the reason discovering I've been "taken" bothers me is because it means I missed out on being able to use the money to buy more coins.
<< <i>The greater the amount of money one places in ones collection, the greater concern one has for its value and the ability to sell the collection if needs be for a reasonable return on investment. >>
When does this concern start? My collection "books" at over 20 times my annual income and I don't know or care if it will sell at a "reasonable return on my investment".
<< <i>You view a collection differently when you have under 1,000 dollars in it from a collection where you have 25, 50 or 100 thousand dollars in it. >>
This is true. I was much more interested in the value of my collection and what I could get for it back when it was under $1000
<< <i>Price is relative to your financial position but it is ALWAYS an issue. >>
Only to the extent of do I have the money available.
<< <i>I would not pay $80,000 for a $40,000 coin just because "I liked it". Anyone who does must not consider $40,000 as material or they are a fool. >>
If you have someone rich enough to be able to drop $80,000 on a coin without a second thought because it is just small change to them probably wouldn't see $40,000 as material.
<< <i>we each have a responsibility to our families to ensure that we aren't just flushing our money away. >>
Again I ask, Why?
<< No, it's not possible to pay twice what a coin is worth since by definition it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. >>
Then why does everyone here complain about the National Collectors Mint? Since people are paying $20 for the silver plated freedom dollars they must be worth it. And those counterfeit trade dollars and silver plated proof 1889-CC dollars being sold on ebay for $250+ must be worth it too. After all someone paid that for them. We learned the other day right here that 1972 die 7 doubled die cents are "worth" $127 because a forum member paid that for one. We've practically eliminated the crime of fraud right here. If the article wasn't paid for no fraud took place (attempted fraud is another matter), but if they DID pay for it well then it can't be fraud because it must be WORTH what they paid.
Camelot
We all have variations on the theme of "hobby" - "collecting" - and investing when we collect coins. Rationally, it depends on one's ability to afford something worth collecting, their interest in the coin, and knowing what it's worth. But the "worth" part is obviously much more subjective. Being rational can be difficult when you're trying to complete a collection, but when the intrinsic value of a coin in question overrides common sense (e.g. pay the utilities or buy the coin...). If you have these feelings, get a reality check and another hobby. Happy collectors are only occasionally obsessive
There are two poles and a large middle ground. There are a large number of members of this form that are more investors than collectors. They buy coins with an eye for profit. A varient of this type of collector is the one that doesn't plan to sell immediately but considers acoins as a sophisticated commidity. They are not students of the game and focus not on the collection of special coins for their collecting pleasure but on the asset line on their net worth. There are pure collectors that use coins as their recreation; they enjoy their (coins) possession and consider the cost irrelevent or of minor relevance ( like a night on the town, ticket to a professional sports game, a great bottle of wine).
For most it is a hybrid hobby, The joy of collecting preceedes the excitement of valuation. Most have value yardsticks used to measure their collection. A redbook, grey sheet, CV magazine, auction records, etc). Most keep records to remind themselves what they paid and what they think it may be worth should they sell. To many it is a matter of cost versus wealth. Those that have considerable wealth unintentionally set a higher threshold for concern about what it cost. Others that have less to spend may have hold a few cents dear. To some of you, a $50 expense is meaningful for others thousands or tens of thousands of dollars catches your attention. Of course there are among us people with great wealth who either by instinct, training or upbringing value every expense so intensely that they are troubled by a $2 cost for a product available for $1 as much a $1000000 purchase of a product available at half the cost. There are others that are so compulsive that they weigh not any cost no matter their ability to pay and carry large and unpayable debt until they are bamkrupt.
For myself, I started as a pure collector, sifting through pocket change, then rolls of circulated coins, then rolls of uncirculated coins banked for posterity. I studied coins , read books, compared and contrasted my collection contents and against some standards; I began to purchase moderate priced items at premium to face value , then purchases of rare coins , then rare coins of extreme quality. Soon I had enough money tied up in coins that they went into a safe deposit box and I considered them an asset that might be called on in the case of a real emergency and certainly to be distributed and probably liquidated by my heirs. I have a detailed inventory and valuation of my collection. I carefully judge my bid on coins at auction and purchase price from dealers. I guess I had reached my threshold where cost to value became significant. All this occured without my selling a single coin from a lifetime of accumulation. Am I less of a numismatist now than earlier ( I hope not).