How to submit coins for 70DCAM at PCGS?

Datentype

I hope this does not offend any of you but i figured this would be a better place for this question than the US coin forum as most of the experts on the topic reside here.

I am trying to put together a 70DCAM set for my Son and i do not want to go through the bulk route and i do not want a bunch of coins slabbed that are not 70's from PCGS as the others are a waste. Sure, i'll have to throw some 69's and even 68's in there to make the 70's happen but my question is this: should I take the coins out of the holders and place them in polyethylene bags or what? I have been told from pcgs that they will grade all coins sent in that they crack out from the original proof set and I do not want a bunch of junk - what do you guys do? Thanks in advance for the help!

Casabrown

This is a great question and as a collector, I am interested in the opinions of the experts. It seems to me that there are issues of expertise (distinguishing 69 DCam from 70 DCam in a reliable frequency/fashion), costs of effort in the application of this expertise (the amount of time it takes to review enough DCam coins), and/or the cost of paying someone else (like a dealer) to expend the effort. But, I too wonder what are the keys to success beyond the luck of smiling PCGS gods.

Casabrown

wondercoin

Mark:

My personal experience - I' ve submitted (1) Bulk deal of Proof coins this entire year. 1999 Silver State quarter sets - (56) fresh, original sets. (280) coins in all.

Goal at the time: To slab a DEL Silver PR70DC for a customer that had one on a want list, as well as possibly a few other PR70C coins.

Result: 0/280 for PR70DC. Estimated loss after sale of the PR69DC sets vs. simply selling off the fresh proof sets without slabbing in the first place -roughly $4,000+, not to mention time lost.

On the MS side, I am doing a little better - about 1/50 this year in the hunt for MS70 Modern Commems, but, the (1) was a tough World Cup MS70 Half Dollar Commem, which I got to add to my Registry set, so it was well worth the (50) grading fees.

Good luck!

Wondercoin

Datentype

Mitch, what about the hoards of proof 70dcam coin you get and that other people are making? You cannot tell me that they are losing money at it. Your experience was for a very expensive set as well. By the way, i'm doing this for my Son's birth year set and not to compete with the large perfect coin dealers. I'm just doing the cheap stuff and sending them in regular. Should i put these in poly bags? I have seen some of the pr70 dcam coins and i feel it's doable but i do not want to send them in and have them assume the are tread upon and will develop finger prints and breaths before they get to them.

wondercoin

"Your experience was for a very expensive set as well"

You only live once

Not sure on the poly bag issue. Part of me says the coins are fairly safe in there - the other part says they are a bit cumbersome to work with - do you know what I mean?

Wondercoin

braddick

I"ve always thought a fifty dollar bill preserves the surfaces of a "MS70" coin brilliantly and when your coin is wrapped securely in one, is all the protection you would need when submitting...

Datentype

Hey Braddick - long time hows it going? say hi toi the Wife. If you guys on the board did not know, he has a very kind Wife and hot looking as well - a very charitable lady no doubt!

As far as the $50 bill, i don't think it's that easy or i would do it. I try sending them in with 2 twenties and they come back in 2 weeks and then i have to crack them out and send them in for another $10......hmmmmmm maybe that's where the $50 comes from.

Nobody is exactly jumping in and helping out on this one. I think people are afraid of the competition of bringing other players into a very crowded 70dcam market place. Jeez, there are some real rookies with lots of product pulling out these coins without having extensive numismatic experience and grading skills.

Is it not true that D. hall says between .5-2% of coins should be a perfect coin? If this were true, I ought to be able to get at least 1 of each date for my Son's date set with 200 mint sets - right?

braddick

Thanks for the kind words.

You're the second guy today to tell me my wife is hot.

wondercoin

"Is it not true that D. hall says between .5-2% of coins should be a perfect coin? If this were true, I ought to be able to get at least 1 of each date for my Son's date set with 200 mint sets - right?"

If you can make a PR70DC coin from 200 mint sets - YOU ARE A PRO!!

Wondercoin

Rodius

I have tried and tried and tried to get a PCGS PR70 DCAM from PCGS. I sent in about 100 coins this year carefully inspecting every proof set and have only come up with 69's. I even look at the 69's and 70's (ones purchased) and I cannot see the difference even under magnification. Mitch (wondercoin) is the expert so I would go on his best word.

However, I will keep trying.

Rodney

wondercoin

"Mitch (wondercoin) is the expert so I would go on his best word."

I might qualify as the "expert" on "how to submit coins for [NON] 70DCAM"

Wondercoin

kieferscoins

<< <i>You're the second guy today to tell me my wife is hot. >>



Your wife is hot!

Cameron Kiefer

FullStepJeffs

Okay, here's my two cents worth... actually two bucks.

In 1999, I purchased 25 SBA Proof Dollars from the mint and sent them all in to PCGS for grading. When I submitted them, they were all in the hard plastic case they came in and right out of the individual box. Two came back in PF68DCAM, 21 came back in 69DCAM, and two came back in 70DCAM. At one point, I owned two of the total eight (at that time) known PF70DCAM coins. Sold them both for $750 each and felt bad about the profit I made (a week later, someone sold another for 2K on Teletrade, so I wasn't that bad)... please nobody tell me know their worth $5K or whatever... my heart won't take it.

My advice is... leave them in the case if PCGS will take them. Why worry about messing up the coin?

BTW... I'm no expert... I just got lucky.

Thanks for reading my rant!

Steve

Datentype

FullStepJeffs, if I leave them in the case, I will get all denominations graded and that's what i'm trying to avoid. You can barely get your $ back in they 9dcam the coins and chances are they won't even get those grades. I have decided to put them in individual poly bags to reduce my chances any further on a huge losing project.

Don't you think from 500 mint sets from the mid-90's and asssuming i can take out the 15 nicest for each denomination, they should yield at least 1 or 2 70dcam for each denomination? If it does not work, i will have several assumptions to make. One I can basically rule out is the bin-theory as they should at worst yield .5% based on D. Hall's comments (assuming I have interpreted them correctly). Another is I can't discern the perfect stuff (not likely). The other is the service I choose and the $ i throw at this. It may take a few months to results but i'll try and dig this post up for fun.

wondercoin

Don't you think from 500 mint sets from the mid-90's and asssuming i can take out the 15 nicest for each denomination, they should yield at least 1 or 2 70dcam for each denomination?

-0- chance, IMHO.


Wondercoin

Datentype

I don't understand. What about D Hall's %'s. Is that not a % for me but for someone else?

beartracks42

Hi,

If you are submitting proof coins, do not put them in poly bags. Poly bags can cause haze on proofs. PCGS has even stated this to be true.

Also, can you not just send in the sets with a 70 grade minimum? I have no idea what the cost would be, but it is my understanding that nothing below your minimum would be graded.

Just my 2 cents

Gary

wondercoin

Mark: I guess I need to say this to you twice in one thread - - IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SLAB PR70 COINS FROM MINT SETS. Mint sets contain MS coins. Clean up your terminology

On a more serious note - IMHO, buy them already made.
LESS Expensive than to submit hundreds and hundreds of coins, hoping to make a 70 and not knowing were to sell the hundreds and hundreds of 69s.

Wondercoin

Datentype

beartracks42, pcgs would never do a 70min because they would not make any $

Datentype

Yo WC, You mean there's a difference between ms and proof coins???

Mitch, i saw that early on. I figured I would take more heat for an edit than screwed up terminology with this group but i guess i was wrong.

I finally found the answer: send them in bulk and prepare for a beating with a min 69dcam. I think i'll send picture of my Son in with them and tell them it's a Xmas present. That should seal my fate.....

wondercoin

Mark: You see now about my 0% comment - you've been buried so deep in MS coins for so many years, I was afraid they might all start looking the same to you.

Good luck with the bulk submission of modern proofs. How did you do when you tried your hand at bulk grading of the modern mint state coins?

Wondercoin

Datentype

Mitch, close as I can tell they are brutally tough on ms coins these days. i saw many, many overgraded coins a couple of years ago. now i can say if it's graded it is solid 68.5 and higher - nothing in the bottom decimals for a grade.

bushmaster8

Polybags= Bad news

I used to be a big fan of the polybags. But all it took was one batch of clads going sour to swear me off of them for life.

TheNumish

I feel your pain Bushmaster. One time I broke up a bunch of 1994-1998 silver sets to grade the halves. Put them in poly bags. Half the coins came back no grade for PVC.

Datentype I think you're going to find in the end that it would be cheaper to buy the coins already in the holder. You seem like your dead set in giving it a try but my experience has been when I shoot for proof-70 coins it rarely works. I've looked at certain coins and have seen 5% of the coins graded are 70's. Then I find a deal of 50 fresh coins and pick the best 5 thinking maybe one would grade a 70. It has just never worked.

Last thought is about David Hall's comments. It's nice of him to answer questions but I wouldn't take it as Gospel. A lot of his answers are tongue and cheek. I don't think his answer about the % of coins that should be graded 70 was really that well thought out. After he said that some people speculated there would be a big rise in the number of 70 coins graded. Though more coins are being graded 70 I think it's more a matter of PCGS grading more coins and not a rise in the precentage of 70's.

Dan50

Question Mark, since you said this set is a gift for your son, is that the reason you are set on slabbing them yourself? That in doing this it would mean more to him than buying the coins already made? If this is your thinking I am in agreement with you that it might mean more to him than just buying up the coins for him. Either way you go I wish you the best.. Dan.

Datentype

Okay, after going through 500 sets that were fresh and in their original unopened boxes of 5, I have singled it down to 41 sets that each contain 1 coin that should be a pr70dcam based on the 3 i already own for the same year. As a matter of fact the quality is much better on my sample in my opinion. If it's a level playing field for this perfect thing, i should have several nice scores and most of a complete set. There are several mechanisms working against me but I will see what I get.

Datentype

Thanks Dan, good point. It's the effort and the thought to be sure. Another point is that these are not available. There was a letter from someone selling perfect coins from Forida last week and i had them send me out a clad Wash and the quality was not there on the coin and the plastic even had a huge slash across the coin viewing area (returned it). Not only is there not enough out there for a complete set but it's might be cheaper to slab myself. Of course if this blows up in my face, I will have nothing for my efforts. Sounds a little like gambling huh?

BaileyBoysplusMom

Dantentype:

Best of luck, would like to hear more about the results down the road.

TheNumish:

About those 70's, another thread "where has the monsterman gone?", mentioned thoughts that the grading services may use cartel tactics such that,"if there is a huge demand they loosen, when there isn't they tighten" versus a more Market approach that basically says "a rising tide lifts all boats", meaning more coins graded more 70's.

Interesting points of view for those who would attempt to make the 70's.

Myself, I keep close track on the numbers , to get a handle on the exact nature of the grade rate changes over time in the series I collect considering strategic events(my interpretation) at the services.

Of course, I am not an upgrader or maker of 70's, just a collector of them.

Thanks
BBpM

Datentype

BaileyBoysplusMom/Numish. I don't know about cartels but from many years of experience I view the grading more like the Federal Reserve, where they loosen and tighten the grading standards to control the flow and long term profitability of the company and industry.

My personal experience is that when it takes 3 months to get your regular modern submission back, plan on them to be grading the coins differently than that batch you just used to compare in sending in your current batch. This spaws another hobby of mine known as the crackout/resubmit. An expensive one but it is amazing how I can back up the comments I just made by doing it.

wondercoin

Mark: Sentence 1 contradicts sentence 2, unless you believe the "Federal Reserve", so to speak, is psycho.

Wondercoin

Datentype

Mitch, what part is psycho? Maybe you don't understand what i mean? i remember mentioning the loosening and tightening thing to you and you nodded your head with a Yes. Let's have some fun!

wondercoin

Mark: Here were your comments, with comments to follow:

"BaileyBoysplusMom/Numish. I don't know about cartels but from many years of experience I view the grading more like the Federal Reserve, where they loosen and tighten the grading standards to control the flow and long term profitability of the company and industry."

You mention the loosening and tightening along with LONG TERM profitability. Repeat - LONG TERM.

"My personal experience is that when it takes 3 months to get your regular modern submission back, plan on them to be grading the coins differently than that batch you just used to compare in sending in your current batch. This spaws another hobby of mine known as the crackout/resubmit. An expensive one but it is amazing how I can back up the comments I just made by doing it. "

Here, you point out that submissions made within 90 DAYS OF EACH OTHER are graded differently. Hence, my comment that your 2 sentences don't mesh - UNLESS PCGS IS PSYCHO. Obviously, 90 days isn't "long term" to anyone in this biz.

I played the "upgrade game", basically for a living, the entire year of 2003 - you don't need to talk to me about the perception of "tightening" and "easing" - there isn't much more to talk about as a married man when you are on the road, away from home, with nothing but auction catalogs beside you.

Wondercoin

cladking

I think the .5 to 2% is really just the percentage of most mint and proof set coins that
stand out from the rest. Withe most proofs the very worst of these would generally
grade around 68 and the bulk will go 69, few will go 70. This whole scale shifts from
date to date and they tend to get "graded on the curve". I'll bet if you go through a
batch of these coins that really stand out, you'll find about 5-10% of these will stand.
out. The 70's will be among these though there will be many high end 69's.

I don't have a lot of experience with proofs but have seen more than a few of these
top grade coins.

Good luck if you go ahead and try it yourself. I wouldn't worry about popping them
out of the sets. It's not difficult.

TheNumish

Mark,

You are the man!!! I was doubting that you could do it but you have me convinced now that maybe, just maybe, you're going to pull this off. Gong through 500 sets like that is not easy. Let us know how it turns out. Recently I went through 150 1976 3 peice proof sets and got a 1976-S Silver Quarter in Proof-70 Dcam. This is only the third coin graded so you never know what's going to happen. I was going through the coins for 69DCAMS and never expected to get a 70.

Datentype

Hi Jay, one idea from someone who recently went through the bulk department for a tour says they already have figured out how many i might get a head of time. I seriously doubt this is the case. If this were true, if I sent in the other 459 sets that did not have a 70dcam worthy coin - based from already slabbed 70dcam coins, I would get a higher # of 70's than if i had just sent in the cherry picked 41 sets. This can not be true unless they are rewarding you for coins to help pay your grading bill. This to me, can never happen there or they would not be grading the coin. They could not survive as #1 in the business if they did not grade purely the coin instead of "grading the batch".

Jay, Congrats on the 76-s silver wash 70dcam! That's probably about a $2,000 - you seem to get some of the best stuff regularly and must really know the business.

Oh by the way Jay, did you submit all 150 or whittle it down to a few? What service did you use?

TheNumish

I'm more persistent than anything. Sent in 138 coins that included 1971-1974 Silver proof IKE's and the three coins in the 1976 silver set. I did the bulk and they graded 122 coins. The invoice number is 3164557. I wasn't looking for 70's. Just got lucky on that one coin.

RBinTex

"you don't need to talk to me about the perception of "tightening" and "easing" "

Or about irrational exuberance either