I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
@keets said: I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
I called you a dealer because you work at a coin shop, have commented previously about going to shows representing a coin shop so I made the assumption that your position is that of a dealer, or closer to a dealer than a collector in this case. Either way, its not a bad thing or a good thing.
You said shopping a coin around ins't a good approach and referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
I was simply commenting that I found it funny that as a dealer or someone who works in a coin shop, you think trying to get more money for a coin you own is a bad approach. I would imagine if I offered you a price for one of your coins that you wanted to think about, and in the meantime, someone else offered you more money - that I would be out of luck.
I will agree with you that shopping a coin around for 10-20 bucks seems a little over the top, but to each his own. Not everyone has a ton of disposable income to spend on coins. If I can sell a coin to Dealer B for 800 bucks when dealer A only offered me 700, thats a fair amount of money.
Its too bad that you say dealers hate when collectors shop around for the best price - when I assume they essentially do that every day with their own inventory and when they are trying to purchase new inventory. Again, I would imagine that even those dealers "shop around" their own coins at shows and shop around for good deals on other items they buy in their lives.
I see it as part of doing business. I don't expect a dealer to educate me on something I'm trying to sell but I also don't expect them to try and rip me off. For me, if a dealer is close to my asking price, I usually sell the coin. Especially if they have something that I want as well.
@jmlanzaf I definitely understand the point you're trying to make - and if that is what we're describing across the board in this thread - than so be it, and I'll agree with you. I took it to be just getting multiple offers and selling the coin.
It is definitely unfair to do what you've described
to follow on what jmlanzaf said, we often get people who walk into the store with something and offer it for sale. though we don't know it, they are prepared to do the "leverage" that he described which means we are down the line of places where the customer has "shopped" at already. when we make an offer and the reply is "Joe Fabeets down the road said he'd give me $XXX for it" my standard reply is that "You should probably go back and sell it to him."
some of the replies remind me why I started to work for my boss in the first place.
after being away from coins for a number of years I reconnected with my "dealer" when he opened a store about a mile from my house. I had a very liberal work schedule and would hang out and help however I could which got me access and better prices. I prodded him to do more coin shows and offered to ride along for free, helping behind the cases when needed and walking the floor when I could.
part of my reasoning was simple: I could "trade" my help for his knowledge and learn how a dealer thinks and works. I figured if I had a better understanding of his side of the table it would help my on my side of the table. I learned about margins, spreads, tricks that sellers use to con dealers and some of the ways that dealers try to gain an advantage over sellers, even other dealers.
I didn't expect it to lead to a job but it eventually did. I moved from an Industrial background(Tool and Die maker, Foundry and Plastics) to a 10-6 job as a clerk, doing all the grunt work necessary to run a small Coin/Jewelry business. after a little over a year he fired me!!!
about 3-4 years later he called me and said he was expanding his business and doing Pawns, he wanted me to run the Coin side of things. it has been fun and a furthering of my education. it is a hard business to make a living in, very competitive and sometimes cut-throat as everyone is often scrambling for the same dollar. as most of the real dealers, the guys who actually have their life, their family and their entire net worth dependent on this fine Hobby will tell you, it can be fun, too.
I could tell some stories. some might amuse collectors and some might enrage them.
In the very specific instance I related, If the guy had come back two hours later (light shopping), I likely would have written the $11K check after a harder second look.
However, the price quoted and offered was straightly for upgrade, not for customer fulfilment or product trading value. At a major show with 18+ elapsed bourse hours between "Bye" and "Hi again" there would be 100 dealers who could have pulled the trigger by then and did not.
If you're a collector or vest-pocket, get your pricing data in order before you "put your head in the lion's mouth".
It's not usually about the guy with the most money or experience having the power. The specific knowledge you bring to each individual transaction is the only power anyone has. Somewhat rational people can often disagree and walk away. An intersection of interests does not always result in the sufficient union of them necessary for a mutually agreed-upon number.
The data is out there. Learn or go broke. Inoculate yourself with due diligence. If the guy on the other side of the table, whichever side it may be, can smell your fear, that (sometimes intermittent but always humanly available) predatory twitch is more easily activated. But you don't have to be an alpha as long as your data rates an "A".
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
In ColJessup's case, I can see his point. When the coin has been shopped around to all of the dealers at a show, if he then buys the coin, the number of people who are potential buyers is significantly fewer than if the coin is "fresh" or has been shown to only one or two other dealers. If the number of potential buyers is fewer, then the coin is worth a less than it was when it was first shown to ColJessup.
For example, you offer $1,000 for a coin. The owner shops it to every other dealer at the show, presumably at $1,100 or so. Now he brings it back to you. You know that no dealer on the floor is going to buy that coin from you at what you have to sell it for to make a profit. If your sales are 50% to dealers and 50% to collectors, now 50% of your market is gone. So the coin might be worth $1,100 or $1,150 to a collector, but not to a dealer at that show.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
an educated collector/seller is a better customer than an ignorant collector/seller. quite a few collectors/buyers that I have interacted with say they never sell.
@keets said: I tell him 50 other dealers have passed at that price and I'll pay him $9500.
Next........
a good example of "shopping around" which isn't really a good approach. we refer to the lower price offered as stupid tax. that will upset some people but the truth often hurts before it sets you free.
I’m curious how do you buy a new car and sell your old car?
Do you buy and sell from the first car dealer you go to?
Based on the responses from the dealers here I'm beginning to understand why auction venues such as eBay and Great Collections are so popular among coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
again, to follow on a post from lmlanzaf...........................
we have a guy walk in with a large box of Mint products.
Me: What can I help you with??
Him: I have some stuff I'm looking to get rid of.
Me: Did you want to sell everything or just get a loan??
Him: I'd like to sell it all.
easy enough. I start sorting through his things, making stacks according to what everything is, Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Proof Commems, Mint State Commems, etc. and then start to price everything off the GreySheet. after about 45 minutes and 4-5 invoice sheets I have a price and tell him what I've come up with.
Him: OK, I'm going to go to a couple of other places before I make a decision.
Me: I thought you said you wanted to sell??
Him: I do, but there are a couple of other places I want to try first.
Me: I wish you would have told me that, we might have saved some time.
if the guy had told me he was taking "offers" or something along those lines he could have been to the next guy in a few minutes. I would have given him a copy of the GreySheet, a business card and explained to him that we would pay 20% back of the bid price. my parting words would have been "Thanks for stopping, call us or stop back in when you're ready to sell."
as he was leaving he said "Can I have those sheets??" asking about the invoices. I told him "No" and helped him pack up his boxes. my Sister has a word for guys like him: idiot.
I'd like to know if a dealer asked me what I'd needed to get for a coin and due to poor research or just plain ignorance I gave him price that was 30% below grey sheet. Would most dealers:
1) give me my asking price.
2) educate me that I'm asking too little for the coin
3) offer me an additional 10% less that my "what do you need to get price"
I understand that dealers have to make a living and need a certain profit margin to keep the lights on. Most coin collectors are at a distinct disadvantage when selling to dealers no matter how long they have been collecting. I'm just interested in where the ethics lie in the above scenario if you're being totally honest in your response.
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
@jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
I've been lucky enough to purchase a few decent collections locally and it always goes the same way. I respond to an ad, have some conversations, give them a price and encourage them to take it to the local coin shops and get offers. I always explain to them that its win-win for us (me and the seller) because I'm getting coins for less than I could buy them from a dealer and they are getting more for their coins then a dealer would offer.
I understand that if you have overhead, you need to make money - its the same with any business - and my business as well. I'm more than willing to leave meat on the bone for a dealer to make money - and always take that into consideration with my asking prices - but I'll still shop the coin around if we're talking about a decent amount of cash on the table.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
@3stars said:
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal
I’ve actually made a couple dealers so mad their faces turned red. Both looked like they wanted to cuss me out but thought better if it because they practically forced a counter offer out of me.
I’m usually a pass or play buyer. I asked both the dealers for a price on a coin and passed. They then asked me for an offer. I was reluctant on both and told both I thought we were too far apart. They apparently didn’t think they would be offended but I guess they were wrong.
There are other issues to this from a collector side. If I have 10 coins for sale and 8 of them are from series I'm not actively collecting, I may not have up to date information to know "what I want". I'll base my decision on what is offered on the 2 I know something about. If it's worth $1000 and you offer $500, I'll definitely go elsewhere unless you explain why you lowballed it (hidden cleaning, surface issues, etc.). I would never say I got a quote from "Jim" at $650, I may say I have an offer for $650, but I think it's worth more. If I get offered $10 more, and I really want to sell it, I'd come back, if I get offered $100 more that's different. If I really thought it was worth $1k, I'd take it home and sell it some other way.
@Yacorie1 said: @jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
It's not quite the same situation. I think you underestimate how much face value stuff ends up getting sorted and there's no way to make money on the CoinStar Quotient of a collection. I've literally had to sort silver from clad dimes out of a half gallon glass jug in order to come up with a fair offer.
So, a better analogy would be that you are having 3 quotes on your deck, but you ask the 1st person to clear the area, level the ground and drive in posts before you turn to #2 and #3 for their quotes.
I disagree with you here. You make it sound like every person that walks into a coin shop has a giant box of unsorted crap that they have no idea about what any of it is. I'm sure there are people like that but I'm guessing that is not the norm.
If someone walked in with a bottle full of change and you're sorting the silver - you're making that decision to do so. You could just as easily tell them that unless its pre 1965, its only worth face value and hand it back to them. I'm sure that the liklihood of finding a big score is higher in a collection of someone who knows nothing - but it also could be that its a bunch of junk.
There are plenty of jobs that come my way that I have to turn down because it just doesn't make sense to invest the time for the size of the job; I see this as the same thing.
You're analogy about clearing land and driving posts isn't the same. if someone hands you a box of random stuff and you sort it and give them a price, you can then put it all back in the box randomly and let them take it to the next guy, who will have to do the same thing. The other option you have is that you can just pass on the entire box and be willing to miss the goodies that might have been in there.
I think the dealers and coin shop workers in this thread are presenting the two worst case scenarios.
Scenario 1: Random person walks into shop or up to table with a box filled with a mix of crap, clad and a few decent items. You spend time to sort it, price it, educate them and then they walk away and use that information at the next table.
Scenario 2: Someone has a group of coins that you make offers on and then they walk around and sell part of the group off and come back to you expecting that you'll buy the dregs.
Again, I can't imagine either of these are the norm. In the scenario I'm talking about - I have a coin with an easy retail value of 1k. I'm asking 800 for the coin which I think is fair for both of us and knowing its not one you'll have to sit on for a long time. You counter and tell me you can only pay 700. I'm going to say thank you and walk away to shop it around. if in the end, you're 700 is the best price and you're still intersted, I'll sell it. I'm not going to go to every other dealer and tell them I've already had an offer for 700 - I'm going to tell them I'm looking for 800. I see nothing wrong with that.
Very good thread, with a lot of insightful inputs from all sides.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
I liked this statement, and wanted to repost it from jmlanzaf.....and frankly should only be used when trying to sell something that you really don't know the value of (like my Confederate currency post earlier), and be upfront that you are going to shop it around. If they don't want to 'play' that's fine, but if they do, you will likely be getting their best offer.
Knowledgeable collectors should have a realistic price in mind and be ready to quote, but if you prefer the dealer goes first, if the offer is in the ballpark, just take it. And if you want strong offers for your better material, do the research and offer it those dealers who specialize in it; time and again those fellows 'pay up' for the coins they like to carry.
If the norm is a box of random widgets - than I stand corrected. It seems tough to stay in business if its just random stuff of little value that comes through the door. maybe thats why around here it seems that the dealers have very small storefronts with large ebay presences.
After reading many of these post, I now realize why I quit going to individual coins stores! 90% of my buys and sells are at coins shows where there is a wide selection and lot of healthy competition. Even then I'm mostly just looking at the vast majority of tables. I typically buy from the same dealers that I've known for years or ones that have been recommended by those well known dealers that I do deal with. I'll try new dealers (or ones that are unknown to me) once, if I find something I really want. I know they need to make money to stay in business, but if they don't treat me in a professional and reasonably fair manner, I'm done with them. I won't even "look" at some dealers coins/table because of their past attitudes and/or business ethics.
The largest problem with a collector's perception in the OP is that the collector forgets that he is asking someone who makes their living trading rare coins. In most cases, its not that the dealer sees you as a sheep thats about to be sheered, but rather can he make a fair/reasonable profit on this trade. The great equalizer is the internet. If you don't like what you are offered at a show then put the darn thing for sale online at a major house.
Just like in any field, there are sharks and dirtbags to be found but thats not what is typical.
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
@keets said:
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
At a show if I have material offered to me at my table at price I like I may buy it. Others I will make an offer / counter offer and if they don’t like it maybe they should blow it out on the Bay.
I can buy many CRC from a certain auction house at bid to 10 pct below bid on average. This means the seller is getting 10 to 20 pct below bid or even less based on sellers fees etc. So if I offer somebody 85 pct of cdn bid at a show this is a generous offer. If they want more, it’s simply not a deal for me due to current market conditions. I don’t care what they think I am there make money not ruffle their feathers.
Every dealer different on how they start buy negotiation assuming they have any use for the material period. Starting the negotion w query as to what they want like opening a game of chess with the knight.
I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
If a dealer needs to buy something 20% behind CDN bid to make it worth his/her time, then so be it - but you shouldn't be offended if someone walks. If I came up and offered 90% of Bid for the items on your table or in your shop - I'm sure you'd start to get pissed.
To me it sounds like dealers want all collectors to sell at some percentage below bid, at best, and buy for full retail. If that works, great, but I think thats why people are a bit surprised. My own perspective on all sales (including coins) is that if the market value of a coin is X, and I would love to get as close to X as I can. I recognize that a dealer needs to make money to survive and will likely offer me less than another collector for the same coin. Thats fine - but I think the better approach when someone comes up willing to sell a coin is to explain that to the seller. If a coin is worth X - I need to buy it "this amount" because it might take me some time to sell it etc.
its seem future intent has a lot to do with it. If your looking to pick up a few coins to turn back around, you will need some wiggle room. If you are looking to pick up an item that has a set purpose in your collection, and it will sit a while, then your pricing will probable be different. At least it is in my mind. I have no problem discussing pricing on coins and don't care who starts with the numbers. In the end, you should know what to expect (either side) if you cannot trust someone to not rip you off, then walk away.
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.**
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
@keets said:
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
**
you should to change how you think.
Perhaps I'm on the mark and you have to change how you think - and maybe adjust your business approach to be more in line with reality?
or perhaps you're right and I need to change how I think.
tell me why what I said is wrong. Like I said already in multiple posts - I don't see why coin shops are different than other sales venues, including my own profession.
I really am trying to see where you're coming from and have acknowledged that anyone in sales needs to buy lower than they sell or they go out of business quickly. We do work all the time at no margin or very low margin for exposure among other reasons, but you can't do that all the time or once again you're busted.
@keets said:
our business model works just fine and our customer base is healthy.
But you make statements and claims that don't make sense, at least to me, who has nothing to do with a coin shop. By inference, these statements are the reason(s) the coin business is somehow different than other sales businesses.
I'm simply asking you how they are different than car sales, or vacuum sales, or any type of B&M sales? You said it was important to remember that they don't function the same.
I'm certainly not trying to pick on you - I find this thread to be very insightful and helpful. I'm just trying to understand how/why its different since I've never been a coinshop owner or employee.
@cnncoins said:
I will be happy to price ALL/ANY of my coins...if you want to sell, I think it is fair to have you price your coins. There are always situations where the seller does not really have any idea what the value is, and as a dealer, I am happy to give an offer and explain how I arrived at that number.
This...
As a collector, do your research on prices, assume a 10-20% margin for most items, more if esoteric or thinly traded. In the age of the internet the only excuse for not knowing the approximate value of a graded US coin is generally laziness.
A old saying @ my house never buy or sell anything you don’t now the value of
Had a 10 dollar note shopped around almost a year offers 40 dollars to 400 dollars from a little research had a feeling the note was worth more money
Fun show talked to Al Adams offers 700 dollars and I sold it
Knowledge is power no matter who you are
Comments
I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
I called you a dealer because you work at a coin shop, have commented previously about going to shows representing a coin shop so I made the assumption that your position is that of a dealer, or closer to a dealer than a collector in this case. Either way, its not a bad thing or a good thing.
You said shopping a coin around ins't a good approach and referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
I was simply commenting that I found it funny that as a dealer or someone who works in a coin shop, you think trying to get more money for a coin you own is a bad approach. I would imagine if I offered you a price for one of your coins that you wanted to think about, and in the meantime, someone else offered you more money - that I would be out of luck.
I will agree with you that shopping a coin around for 10-20 bucks seems a little over the top, but to each his own. Not everyone has a ton of disposable income to spend on coins. If I can sell a coin to Dealer B for 800 bucks when dealer A only offered me 700, thats a fair amount of money.
Its too bad that you say dealers hate when collectors shop around for the best price - when I assume they essentially do that every day with their own inventory and when they are trying to purchase new inventory. Again, I would imagine that even those dealers "shop around" their own coins at shows and shop around for good deals on other items they buy in their lives.
I see it as part of doing business. I don't expect a dealer to educate me on something I'm trying to sell but I also don't expect them to try and rip me off. For me, if a dealer is close to my asking price, I usually sell the coin. Especially if they have something that I want as well.
@jmlanzaf I definitely understand the point you're trying to make - and if that is what we're describing across the board in this thread - than so be it, and I'll agree with you. I took it to be just getting multiple offers and selling the coin.
It is definitely unfair to do what you've described
to follow on what jmlanzaf said, we often get people who walk into the store with something and offer it for sale. though we don't know it, they are prepared to do the "leverage" that he described which means we are down the line of places where the customer has "shopped" at already. when we make an offer and the reply is "Joe Fabeets down the road said he'd give me $XXX for it" my standard reply is that "You should probably go back and sell it to him."
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
some of the replies remind me why I started to work for my boss in the first place.
after being away from coins for a number of years I reconnected with my "dealer" when he opened a store about a mile from my house. I had a very liberal work schedule and would hang out and help however I could which got me access and better prices. I prodded him to do more coin shows and offered to ride along for free, helping behind the cases when needed and walking the floor when I could.
part of my reasoning was simple: I could "trade" my help for his knowledge and learn how a dealer thinks and works. I figured if I had a better understanding of his side of the table it would help my on my side of the table. I learned about margins, spreads, tricks that sellers use to con dealers and some of the ways that dealers try to gain an advantage over sellers, even other dealers.
I didn't expect it to lead to a job but it eventually did. I moved from an Industrial background(Tool and Die maker, Foundry and Plastics) to a 10-6 job as a clerk, doing all the grunt work necessary to run a small Coin/Jewelry business. after a little over a year he fired me!!!
about 3-4 years later he called me and said he was expanding his business and doing Pawns, he wanted me to run the Coin side of things. it has been fun and a furthering of my education. it is a hard business to make a living in, very competitive and sometimes cut-throat as everyone is often scrambling for the same dollar. as most of the real dealers, the guys who actually have their life, their family and their entire net worth dependent on this fine Hobby will tell you, it can be fun, too.
I could tell some stories. some might amuse collectors and some might enrage them.
"Shopping a coin around" is a very broad topic.
In the very specific instance I related, If the guy had come back two hours later (light shopping), I likely would have written the $11K check after a harder second look.
However, the price quoted and offered was straightly for upgrade, not for customer fulfilment or product trading value. At a major show with 18+ elapsed bourse hours between "Bye" and "Hi again" there would be 100 dealers who could have pulled the trigger by then and did not.
If you're a collector or vest-pocket, get your pricing data in order before you "put your head in the lion's mouth".
It's not usually about the guy with the most money or experience having the power. The specific knowledge you bring to each individual transaction is the only power anyone has. Somewhat rational people can often disagree and walk away. An intersection of interests does not always result in the sufficient union of them necessary for a mutually agreed-upon number.
The data is out there. Learn or go broke. Inoculate yourself with due diligence. If the guy on the other side of the table, whichever side it may be, can smell your fear, that (sometimes intermittent but always humanly available) predatory twitch is more easily activated. But you don't have to be an alpha as long as your data rates an "A".
In ColJessup's case, I can see his point. When the coin has been shopped around to all of the dealers at a show, if he then buys the coin, the number of people who are potential buyers is significantly fewer than if the coin is "fresh" or has been shown to only one or two other dealers. If the number of potential buyers is fewer, then the coin is worth a less than it was when it was first shown to ColJessup.
For example, you offer $1,000 for a coin. The owner shops it to every other dealer at the show, presumably at $1,100 or so. Now he brings it back to you. You know that no dealer on the floor is going to buy that coin from you at what you have to sell it for to make a profit. If your sales are 50% to dealers and 50% to collectors, now 50% of your market is gone. So the coin might be worth $1,100 or $1,150 to a collector, but not to a dealer at that show.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
"I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal"
Same goes for the typical coin dealer first offer (30% too low).
an educated collector/seller is a better customer than an ignorant collector/seller. quite a few collectors/buyers that I have interacted with say they never sell.
selling will make you a better buyer.
I’m curious how do you buy a new car and sell your old car?
Do you buy and sell from the first car dealer you go to?
Based on the responses from the dealers here I'm beginning to understand why auction venues such as eBay and Great Collections are so popular among coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
again, to follow on a post from lmlanzaf...........................
we have a guy walk in with a large box of Mint products.
Me: What can I help you with??
Him: I have some stuff I'm looking to get rid of.
Me: Did you want to sell everything or just get a loan??
Him: I'd like to sell it all.
easy enough. I start sorting through his things, making stacks according to what everything is, Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Proof Commems, Mint State Commems, etc. and then start to price everything off the GreySheet. after about 45 minutes and 4-5 invoice sheets I have a price and tell him what I've come up with.
Him: OK, I'm going to go to a couple of other places before I make a decision.
Me: I thought you said you wanted to sell??
Him: I do, but there are a couple of other places I want to try first.
Me: I wish you would have told me that, we might have saved some time.
if the guy had told me he was taking "offers" or something along those lines he could have been to the next guy in a few minutes. I would have given him a copy of the GreySheet, a business card and explained to him that we would pay 20% back of the bid price. my parting words would have been "Thanks for stopping, call us or stop back in when you're ready to sell."
as he was leaving he said "Can I have those sheets??" asking about the invoices. I told him "No" and helped him pack up his boxes. my Sister has a word for guys like him: idiot.
I'd like to know if a dealer asked me what I'd needed to get for a coin and due to poor research or just plain ignorance I gave him price that was 30% below grey sheet. Would most dealers:
1) give me my asking price.
2) educate me that I'm asking too little for the coin
3) offer me an additional 10% less that my "what do you need to get price"
I understand that dealers have to make a living and need a certain profit margin to keep the lights on. Most coin collectors are at a distinct disadvantage when selling to dealers no matter how long they have been collecting. I'm just interested in where the ethics lie in the above scenario if you're being totally honest in your response.
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
@jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
I've been lucky enough to purchase a few decent collections locally and it always goes the same way. I respond to an ad, have some conversations, give them a price and encourage them to take it to the local coin shops and get offers. I always explain to them that its win-win for us (me and the seller) because I'm getting coins for less than I could buy them from a dealer and they are getting more for their coins then a dealer would offer.
I understand that if you have overhead, you need to make money - its the same with any business - and my business as well. I'm more than willing to leave meat on the bone for a dealer to make money - and always take that into consideration with my asking prices - but I'll still shop the coin around if we're talking about a decent amount of cash on the table.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
I’ve actually made a couple dealers so mad their faces turned red. Both looked like they wanted to cuss me out but thought better if it because they practically forced a counter offer out of me.
I’m usually a pass or play buyer. I asked both the dealers for a price on a coin and passed. They then asked me for an offer. I was reluctant on both and told both I thought we were too far apart. They apparently didn’t think they would be offended but I guess they were wrong.
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There are other issues to this from a collector side. If I have 10 coins for sale and 8 of them are from series I'm not actively collecting, I may not have up to date information to know "what I want". I'll base my decision on what is offered on the 2 I know something about. If it's worth $1000 and you offer $500, I'll definitely go elsewhere unless you explain why you lowballed it (hidden cleaning, surface issues, etc.). I would never say I got a quote from "Jim" at $650, I may say I have an offer for $650, but I think it's worth more. If I get offered $10 more, and I really want to sell it, I'd come back, if I get offered $100 more that's different. If I really thought it was worth $1k, I'd take it home and sell it some other way.
I disagree with you here. You make it sound like every person that walks into a coin shop has a giant box of unsorted crap that they have no idea about what any of it is. I'm sure there are people like that but I'm guessing that is not the norm.
If someone walked in with a bottle full of change and you're sorting the silver - you're making that decision to do so. You could just as easily tell them that unless its pre 1965, its only worth face value and hand it back to them. I'm sure that the liklihood of finding a big score is higher in a collection of someone who knows nothing - but it also could be that its a bunch of junk.
There are plenty of jobs that come my way that I have to turn down because it just doesn't make sense to invest the time for the size of the job; I see this as the same thing.
You're analogy about clearing land and driving posts isn't the same. if someone hands you a box of random stuff and you sort it and give them a price, you can then put it all back in the box randomly and let them take it to the next guy, who will have to do the same thing. The other option you have is that you can just pass on the entire box and be willing to miss the goodies that might have been in there.
I think the dealers and coin shop workers in this thread are presenting the two worst case scenarios.
Scenario 1: Random person walks into shop or up to table with a box filled with a mix of crap, clad and a few decent items. You spend time to sort it, price it, educate them and then they walk away and use that information at the next table.
Scenario 2: Someone has a group of coins that you make offers on and then they walk around and sell part of the group off and come back to you expecting that you'll buy the dregs.
Again, I can't imagine either of these are the norm. In the scenario I'm talking about - I have a coin with an easy retail value of 1k. I'm asking 800 for the coin which I think is fair for both of us and knowing its not one you'll have to sit on for a long time. You counter and tell me you can only pay 700. I'm going to say thank you and walk away to shop it around. if in the end, you're 700 is the best price and you're still intersted, I'll sell it. I'm not going to go to every other dealer and tell them I've already had an offer for 700 - I'm going to tell them I'm looking for 800. I see nothing wrong with that.
Very good thread, with a lot of insightful inputs from all sides.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
I liked this statement, and wanted to repost it from jmlanzaf.....and frankly should only be used when trying to sell something that you really don't know the value of (like my Confederate currency post earlier), and be upfront that you are going to shop it around. If they don't want to 'play' that's fine, but if they do, you will likely be getting their best offer.
Knowledgeable collectors should have a realistic price in mind and be ready to quote, but if you prefer the dealer goes first, if the offer is in the ballpark, just take it. And if you want strong offers for your better material, do the research and offer it those dealers who specialize in it; time and again those fellows 'pay up' for the coins they like to carry.
If the norm is a box of random widgets - than I stand corrected. It seems tough to stay in business if its just random stuff of little value that comes through the door. maybe thats why around here it seems that the dealers have very small storefronts with large ebay presences.
After reading many of these post, I now realize why I quit going to individual coins stores! 90% of my buys and sells are at coins shows where there is a wide selection and lot of healthy competition. Even then I'm mostly just looking at the vast majority of tables. I typically buy from the same dealers that I've known for years or ones that have been recommended by those well known dealers that I do deal with. I'll try new dealers (or ones that are unknown to me) once, if I find something I really want. I know they need to make money to stay in business, but if they don't treat me in a professional and reasonably fair manner, I'm done with them. I won't even "look" at some dealers coins/table because of their past attitudes and/or business ethics.
The largest problem with a collector's perception in the OP is that the collector forgets that he is asking someone who makes their living trading rare coins. In most cases, its not that the dealer sees you as a sheep thats about to be sheered, but rather can he make a fair/reasonable profit on this trade. The great equalizer is the internet. If you don't like what you are offered at a show then put the darn thing for sale online at a major house.
Just like in any field, there are sharks and dirtbags to be found but thats not what is typical.
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
At a show if I have material offered to me at my table at price I like I may buy it. Others I will make an offer / counter offer and if they don’t like it maybe they should blow it out on the Bay.
I can buy many CRC from a certain auction house at bid to 10 pct below bid on average. This means the seller is getting 10 to 20 pct below bid or even less based on sellers fees etc. So if I offer somebody 85 pct of cdn bid at a show this is a generous offer. If they want more, it’s simply not a deal for me due to current market conditions. I don’t care what they think I am there make money not ruffle their feathers.
Every dealer different on how they start buy negotiation assuming they have any use for the material period. Starting the negotion w query as to what they want like opening a game of chess with the knight.
I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
If a dealer needs to buy something 20% behind CDN bid to make it worth his/her time, then so be it - but you shouldn't be offended if someone walks. If I came up and offered 90% of Bid for the items on your table or in your shop - I'm sure you'd start to get pissed.
To me it sounds like dealers want all collectors to sell at some percentage below bid, at best, and buy for full retail. If that works, great, but I think thats why people are a bit surprised. My own perspective on all sales (including coins) is that if the market value of a coin is X, and I would love to get as close to X as I can. I recognize that a dealer needs to make money to survive and will likely offer me less than another collector for the same coin. Thats fine - but I think the better approach when someone comes up willing to sell a coin is to explain that to the seller. If a coin is worth X - I need to buy it "this amount" because it might take me some time to sell it etc.
its seem future intent has a lot to do with it. If your looking to pick up a few coins to turn back around, you will need some wiggle room. If you are looking to pick up an item that has a set purpose in your collection, and it will sit a while, then your pricing will probable be different. At least it is in my mind. I have no problem discussing pricing on coins and don't care who starts with the numbers. In the end, you should know what to expect (either side) if you cannot trust someone to not rip you off, then walk away.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.**
you should change how you think.
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
Perhaps I'm on the mark and you have to change how you think - and maybe adjust your business approach to be more in line with reality?
or perhaps you're right and I need to change how I think.
tell me why what I said is wrong. Like I said already in multiple posts - I don't see why coin shops are different than other sales venues, including my own profession.
I really am trying to see where you're coming from and have acknowledged that anyone in sales needs to buy lower than they sell or they go out of business quickly. We do work all the time at no margin or very low margin for exposure among other reasons, but you can't do that all the time or once again you're busted.
our business model works just fine and our customer base is healthy.
But you make statements and claims that don't make sense, at least to me, who has nothing to do with a coin shop. By inference, these statements are the reason(s) the coin business is somehow different than other sales businesses.
I'm simply asking you how they are different than car sales, or vacuum sales, or any type of B&M sales? You said it was important to remember that they don't function the same.
I'm certainly not trying to pick on you - I find this thread to be very insightful and helpful. I'm just trying to understand how/why its different since I've never been a coinshop owner or employee.
This...
As a collector, do your research on prices, assume a 10-20% margin for most items, more if esoteric or thinly traded. In the age of the internet the only excuse for not knowing the approximate value of a graded US coin is generally laziness.
Latin American Collection
A old saying @ my house never buy or sell anything you don’t now the value of
Had a 10 dollar note shopped around almost a year offers 40 dollars to 400 dollars from a little research had a feeling the note was worth more money
Fun show talked to Al Adams offers 700 dollars and I sold it
Knowledge is power no matter who you are