I would love slabs more if...
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
they started grading them to one decimal (67.5), they started using objective rational grading methodologies and if they started taking eye appeal into account more......
......I mean geeze....
"that Monet there, it's really not good enough for my collection even though the subject matter is awesome, it's coloration and use of light is fantastic, it's execution is delightful....it's a classic piece for the period and it's in fabulous condition except for one thing........it's got a single hairline under the patina that you can see with a 75 watt halogen light keeping it from being a fabulous masterpiece....."
......I mean geeze....
"that Monet there, it's really not good enough for my collection even though the subject matter is awesome, it's coloration and use of light is fantastic, it's execution is delightful....it's a classic piece for the period and it's in fabulous condition except for one thing........it's got a single hairline under the patina that you can see with a 75 watt halogen light keeping it from being a fabulous masterpiece....."
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Cameron Kiefer
Didn't say it had to be reasonable.
Funny, I've never heard anyone say they loved slabs at all. Except sample slabs, that is.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...they started grading them to one decimal (67.5), >>
But then how would you know if you are getting a 67.51 or a 67.59 ?
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Tom Pilitowski
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Anyway, I'm sure decimal grading or a new grading scale would come along some day, because think of all the money dealers and grading services could make by getting all those nice ms64's in ms64.5 holders.
<< <i>
<< <i>...they started grading them to one decimal (67.5), >>
But then how would you know if you are getting a 67.51 or a 67.59 ? >>
<< <i>If for what we pay in good faith, the TPGs would take their time(at least 20-30- seconds per coin) and strive for consistency, doing the job right the first time, treating ALL submitters' coins equally. Think about it. Like the recent "outrage" thread....a collector pays hard earned money re-submitting, trying to obtain the coin's rightful grade, gets fed up, quits trying, sells out to a dealer, only to later find his very coin now in the grade he felt it was all along is downright wrong! >>
Total discouragement is what it leads to. I'm also searching for any TPG's coment on this. But all I find is silence.
Jerry
Grader 1 grades the coin a MS66.375 RD
Grader 2 grades the coin a MS67.125 RB
grader 3 grades the coin a MS67.550 RD
Grader 4 grades the coin a MS66.995 RB
Grader 5 grades the coin a MS66.675 RD
You take the the highest and lowest grades (MS67.550 & MS66.375) and throw them out.
You then take the average of the other 3 grades to come up with a cumlative grade of MS66.930
Since 3 graders gave it a Red designation it would be called RD
All this would be put on the slab for everyone to see ...
all the slabbed coins were autheticated by humans and graded by proficient computers. This would eliminate the possibilities of upgrading/downgrading. However, when the computers were upgraded to the newer grading software to accommodate change grading standards, then the upgrading/downgrading issue could still arise but perhaps still lead to improved consistencies. Also computers would make decimal grading to another decimal place a more realistic option due to improved consistency.
A computer grade is only as good as the data fed into it.
With newer and improved techniques, a computer can be shown current coins in current grades (learning how to grade as it sees more and more coins- basically the standard would be set by coins that have already been shown to it) and interpolate the grade of an unknown coin to the standards of the previous coins shown to it.
<< <i>I would love slabs more if... >>
1.They were all the same size and shape.
2.If they were all equally consistent with their grading.
But really, the crackouts and upgrades etc show that the grading isn't consistant now with 11 grades, and you want it expanded to 101??
No. Not with EVERY coin.
Decimal grading makes a lot of sense when the price spread between a single point is enormous..
for example, if an MS64 is a $1000 coin and an MS65 is a $10,000 coin, then it makes sense to certify the "liner" coins as MS64.5.
This would be a higher class of service, would cost more for submission fee, and the graders would take longer than 30 seconds to arrive at the grade.
IMO, it is just a matter of time.. this WILL happen. (decimal grading for expensive mint state coins that truly are between 64 and 65, or 65 and 66, or 66 and 67. IMO, You will never see decimals in the circulated grades, with grades like VF35.5, but you might see in-between grades like VF18 and EF48 someday)
An old thread on this very subject
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The grading company is not keepiing you from owning and appreciating the coin. >>
that's a false statement. a slab obscures the 3d edge of the coin which prevents me from appreciating it.
K S
<< <i>Decimal grading makes a lot of sense when the price spread between a single point is enormous..
for example, if an MS64 is a $1000 coin and an MS65 is a $10,000 coin, then it makes sense to certify the "liner" coins as MS64.5. >>
That's exactly how we got the eleven grades we use today. The official grading stadards originally only had three MS grades 60, 65, and 70 with 70 really only being a theoretical grade. But the price difference between 60 and 65 got to be very large and peole started agitating for an in between grade and a one between 65 and 70 for those coins that were "cleary beter than 65". So 63 and 67 were added. After awhile the difference between 63 and 65 became large and people started pushing for inbetween grades again. They really wanted 64 and 66 but the ANA just decided that once they had tha many they might as wel have all of them and we got all 11 MS grades. Now since there are high jumps between some grades you are once again asking for more inbetween grades. "Give us one decimal point grading!!!"
If you go ahead and start allowing single point grading between 64 and 65, it WILL spread to the other grades as well. Anything to justify asking more money for the coin. Don't believe me? We already have, unofficially, more than eleven MS grades. They are call low end and high end or premium quality. Gives a seller the potential of 30 grades of MS. Even more when you add qualifiers such as Cam, Dcam, PL, DMPL, strike designations, and, in the case of copper, three color variations. But no, we want decimal point grading too.
Not that there is anythong wrong with figure skating....
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>I also wish the top TPGs would certify ancient coinage so non-expert in this area (like me) could buy them with confidence, safe in the knowledge that they weren't fake. >>
So buy lower value pieces at first. Buy the books, read them. Look at as many pieces as you can, talk to other collectors of ancients. BECOME the expert! As you learn more you will be more and more confident buying more expensive pieces. (And you can build a fairly large collection without spending a lot of money per coin.) If you or one of your collector friends runs across a fake pass it around examine it and learn how it was made and how to recognize similar pieces.
If you really want a service that certifies ancients, there is one. In fact all it does is ancients, ACCS (Ancient Coin Certification Service). It is run by David R Sear, the man who wrote the standard references on ancient Roman coins. I think I would trust his authentcation over any of the other TPG's.
However, what about the guy in Boom's comment:
<< <i>...a collector pays hard earned money re-submitting, trying to obtain the coin's rightful grade, gets fed up, quits trying, sells out to a dealer, only to later find his very coin now in the grade he felt it was all along is downright wrong! >>
PCGS should offer the same guarantee on an upgraded coin. As it is now, there is nothing to protect the collector from the "favored dealer upgrades" from occurring. I realiza the logistics of such a guarantee would be very difficult to work out, but I do know one thing for sure: if PCGS had to pay out of their own pocket for these sorts of travesties, you'd see a LOT more consistency and accuracy in grading, I can assure you that!
You take the the highest and lowest grades (MS67.550 & MS66.375) and throw them out.
sounds like figure skating, and you know where that leads!
designset
Treasury Seals Type Set
True, but when you are 60 and you go to sell your collection and "grading standards have changed" (again) and the finishing touches to your retirement fund are now worth about the same as a good haircut, you might forget how much you were "appreciating the coin".
I agree. Glare sucks.
Good point. On a coin worth 50,000 for a 67 and 150,000 for a 68, those .08 points translate to $8,000. Maybe we should grade to the hundreth of a point.
They're gradeable in a replicable way plus or minus .2 if you're using a logical objective methodology of grading.
(among other things, you take eye appeal into account, among other things, the graders don't know who owns the coins and they don't know the grades assigned by the other graders and they don't talk to each other about what they think about the coins, and the grades are average to compute the final grade and you use at least three graders, you don't force the graders to look at Kennedys all day long which woud drive any human to violence)
IF THE COIN IS BID AT 100 IN 65 AND 200 IN 66, 150 WOULD BE A REASONABLE PRICE OR THEREABOUTS FOR A 65.5.
HOW DO WE PRICE CAM DOLLARS OR PL DOLLARS OR SLQS WITH THREE QUARTERS OF A HEAD OR ULTRA CAM COINS...IT'S ALL BETWEEN THE EARS AND HAVING MORE NUMBERS ACTUALLY GIVES US MORE GUIDANCE AS TO VALUE
If anything there are too many MS grades.
THE UNITED STATES IS A WONDERFUL PLACE.
Simple strictly technical grading would mean less disputes.
Eye appeal is subjective .....DO WE ALL THINK THAT CHRISTIE BRINKLEY IS A FOX? DO WE ALL THINK CALIFORNIA IS MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN OKLAHOMA? IS LOBSTER BETTER THAN A BIG MAC?
IF TEN OF US SIT DOWN AND RATE CHRISTIE BRINKLEY ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN, AND THEN TEN MORE OF US DO THE SAME AND THEN TEN MORE THE SAME....HOW CLOSE WOULD THE AVERAGES OF THOSE THREE RATINGS BE?
HOW ABOUT IF WE DID THE SAME FOR ROSIE O'DONNELL?
YES, EYE APPEAL IS SUBJECTIVE BUT IT CAN BE OBJECTIFIED AND THUS QUANTIFIED......HOW DO WE RATE FIGURE SKATERS? HIGH DIVERS? BALLROOM DANCING DONE BY LAURA SPERBER AS COMPARED TO SILVANO DEGENOVA?
so either the market should judge the premium or it should be negotiated IMO.
I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM NOW....DEALERS TAKE ADVANTATE OF COLLECTORS......"LOOK HERE....EVEN THOUGH YOUR MORGAN HAS RAINBOW TONING ON BOTH SIDES IS FULLY STRUCK AND HAS THE MOST BOOMING LUSTER EVER SEEN ON A CC DOLLAR, THE BLUE SHEET SAYS IT'S WORTH x AND THAT'S ALL THE BOSS MAN WILL LET ME PAY YOU!
THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB CORRECTLY ......THAT IT DOESN'T TAKE THAT LONG TO GRADE A COIN....THEY PROBABLY TAKE A WHILE TO GRADE EXPENSIVE COINS....BUT WHAT REALLY IS THE DIFFERENCE ON A MODERN GRADED 69 DCAM VS. 68 DCAM?
treating ALL submitters' coins equally.
THEY PROBABLY DO THAT BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE PUBLIC HAS ROOM FOR DOUBT....THE GRADING SERVICES SHOULD DO MORE TO ASSUAGE THE PUBLIC'S CONCERN ABOUT FAVORITISM...IF THEY DID, THEY WOULD HAVE MORE CREDIBILITY
Think about it. Like the recent "outrage" thread....a collector pays hard earned money re-submitting, trying to obtain the coin's rightful grade, gets fed up, quits trying, sells out to a dealer, only to later find his very coin now in the grade he felt it was all along is downright wrong!
SOME TIMES THINGS THAT HAPPEN LOOK BAD WHEN IN FACT SOMETHING WRONG HAS NOT TAKED PLACE.....OF COURSE THE OPPOSITE CAN ALSO HAPPEN......ONE CAN GET CAUGHT IN BED WITH THEIR SECRETARY AND NOTHING BAD CAN BE GOING ON. IT'S RARE BUT IT COULD HAPPEN. (BESIDES, "WHO ARE YOU GOING TO BELIEVE, ME OR YOUR EYES?"
TRUE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG...WE TOO SHOULD NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS BUT GIVE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. (SAID BY SOMEONE WHO ONLY BUYS PQ COINS AND NEVER SUBMITS COINS OR DOES CRACKOUTS.)
FOR WHATEVER IT'S WORTH...THE OTHER DAY I LOOK AT 4 DOUBLE ROW BOXES OF COINS AND BOUGHT THREE COINS.
Grader 1 grades the coin a MS66.375 RD
Grader 2 grades the coin a MS67.125 RB
grader 3 grades the coin a MS67.550 RD
Grader 4 grades the coin a MS66.995 RB
Grader 5 grades the coin a MS66.675 RD
You take the the highest and lowest grades (MS67.550 & MS66.375) and throw them out.
You then take the average of the other 3 grades to come up with a cumlative grade of MS66.930
Since 3 graders gave it a Red designation it would be called RD
All this would be put on the slab for everyone to see ...
I SEE WHERE YOU'RE GOING AND SUFFICE IT TO SAY.....
I THINK YOU SHOULD PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET AND IT SHOULD BE KNOWN. YOU HAVE AN EXPENSIVE COIN AND WANT 10 GRADERS AND THUS GREAT CREDIBILITY AS TO THE GRADE? YOU PAY $15 PER GRADER AND IT ENDS UP THAT THE COIN WAS GRADED BY 10 GRADERS. G10-MS68
GREAT IDEA. I THINK WE COULD HAVE EXACTLY THAT IF WE COULD ALL PITCH IN ABOUT $5,000,000. OF COURSE, IF WE WANT TO TWEAK THE STANDARDS SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THE COMPUTER STARTED GRADING COINS...........
BINGO. (MAKES ME WANT TO SING....."AND BINGO WAS HIS NAME....OH!)
THE PROBLEM ISN'T THE NUMBER OF GRADES, IT'S THE METHODOLOGY.
IF THE PROBLEM WERE THE NUMBER OF GRADES, WE WOULD NEVER HAVE THE PROBLEM OF DECIDING WHETHER SOMETHING WAS UNC OR NOT. THAT'S JUST TWO STATES OF BEING.
Not that there is anythong wrong with figure skating.... "
I LIKE FIGURE SKATING. AND THE WAY YOU SAID "ANYTHONG" MAKES ME THINK THAT MAYBE YOU LIKE FIGURE SKATING TOO AND THAT MAYBE....OH FORGET IT, I HAVE TO GO TUCK THE GIRLS IN AND I'VE ALREADY POSTED SO MANY TIMES TO THIS THREAD THAT FRATTLAW'S PANTIES ARE FLOSSING HIS BICUSPIDS.....
NO COMPLAINT AGAINST YOU BUT THIS HOBBY HAS A CADRE OF FULL TIME WHINERS WHO IF THEY'RE NOT WHINING ABOUT THE LOUSY GUARANTEES WILL NEXT BE WHINING ABOUT THE HIGHER FEES THEY'RE HAVING TO PAY FOR THE (BETTER) GUARANTEES THAT THEY FORGOT THAT THEY USED TO COMPLAIN ABOUT
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I agree.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein