A Paypal Flaw / I also need some help

bigd349

I thought that you would all like to know about the little flaw I found in Paypal protection. Lets say that person B is the buyer and person S is the seller. Person B buys a coin from person S for lets say $50 dollars. Person S sends the coin out with insurance to person B. The coins transaction was done on paypal. Now person B says that he never got the coin and files a complaint. You better have a tracking number other wise the buyer is going to get their money back. Now you have insurance, thinking your going to get your money back anyways. Person B ( according to paypal ) doesn't have to fill out the insurance paperwork if they don't want to. They are not obligated to do so under their policy. So my problem then is if the buyer gets his money returned to him and says the hell with you on filling out the insurace paperwork, then you out your money. Even if you had a delievery conformation number, that just means that it was stuck in the mailbox, not that the person got it. Now by now I'm sure that you guys ( and gals ) have figured out that I'm person S. What course of action should I take now. The person will not answer any of my emails. I know that I got scammed because the complaint was filed with paypal the day I mailed the coin out. I can prove that he is a lier with the emails that I have from the beginning and paperwork from the postoffice. But all paypal cares about is a tracking number that I don't have. To make a long story short, the buyer wanted a refund because I didn't give him a tracking number (my mistake). I said ok, just send the coin back to me and I'll be happy to refund your money. Well by now he has his coin and now paypal has given him is money back. So now he has it all and I have nothing. IS THERE ANY THING I CAN DO!!!! Believe me all I want is my coin back from this person. I would be greatful for any help someone might beable to give me.

Thanks
Dave

kieferscoins

Thats why you should always send it delivery confirmation for cheap $50 and under deals for paypal payments.

You gotta keep your receipts and there isn't much you can do in this case except chalk it up and learn from the mistake.

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

<< <i>Thats why you should always send it delivery confirmation >>





<< <i>Even if you had a delievery conformation number, that just means that it was stuck in the mailbox, not that the person got it. >>



READ, Kiefer!

Russ, NCNE

kieferscoins

<< <i>But all paypal cares about is a tracking number that I don't have. To make a long story short, the buyer wanted a refund because I didn't give him a tracking number (my mistake). >>



What do you mean by tracking number?

What type of shipment other then Delivery confirmation (for cheap items) have tracking #'s then Russ?

Cameron Kiefer

BAJJERFAN

If you saved your insurance receipt the P.O. can use that as a tracking number. You or the buyer can't but if you go to your post office they can tell from that number if it was delivered. Maybe PorkPal will accept that as proof of delivery.

telecoin

I have had a friend have this same thing happen to them before. Although Paypal will not be any help, the PO may be able to take action. What you describe is considered mail fraud by the PO. It is illegal to buy something and then falsely claim it wasn't delivered and cancel payment. If you take this to the PO they may investigate it. Also, the new insurance claim forms (PS Form 1000) do not require that the receiver fill out or sign it. You must just provide a phone # of the receiver. With solid documentation of the transaction and value of the item, you should be able to get your refund and possibly nail the buyer with a fraud charge. Talk with your local PO and be willing to agressively persue the claim. Good luck!

ms70

Call the postal inspectors & tell them he used the US mail to scam you. If nothing else maybe a phone call from them will shake him loose.

Russ

<< <i>What type of shipment other then Delivery confirmation (for cheap items) have tracking #'s then Russ?

Cameron Kiefer >>



The number with Delivery Confirmation is not a tracking number. All it does is tell you when the item arrived somewhere, and that may not be the intended recipient. It could be arrival at the local post office, stuffed in a mailbox, left on a doorstep, or dropped at the neighbor's. In other words it's useless since, to reverse a claim, you must have a signature demonstrating that the package was received by the purchaser.

Russ, NCNE

kieferscoins

That makes sense. Do you do signature confirmation on every sale then Russ?

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

<< <i>Do you do signature confirmation on every sale then Russ?

Cameron Kiefer >>



I never sell anything of value.

Russ, NCNE

kieferscoins

Thanks for answering the question. You just wanna slam me and run.

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

<< <i>You just wanna slam me and run.

Cameron Kiefer >>



Run? Not so! I'll be happy to stick around and slam you some more.

Russ, NCNE

bigd349

A delivery conformation is just that, it tell you that they stuck it in the mail box and nothing else. It doesn't mean that they got it. The blue insurance slips I was also told don't have to be signed for either. But it seems funny that I always have to sign for mine. I was told it has to be a signature receipt, which means to me it has to be certified mail ( I guess ). So I asked the person at paypal, all the items that I buy on ebay and receive with no signature or a delivery conformation I could turn around and file a complaint with paypal and get my money back from them all. Not that I would do that but I had to ask to see what kind of answer I would get. And you wouldn’t believe the answer that I got. My answer was and I quote "if that is the kind of person that you are then yes you would get all your money back". I couldn’t believe that he told me this. I asked a couple more questions and I got the run around. But I told him that maybe paypal should start protecting the seller a bit more from this kind of stuff. With the answers that I got I'm ready to pull my account, but its to bad there isn't anyplace else to go and they are the only game in town.

Dave

Peaceman

insure it for $ 51..... then they have to sign........

Russ

<< <i>I was told it has to be a signature receipt, which means to me it has to be certified mail ( I guess ). >>



There is also Signature Confirmation, which is different than Delivery Confirmation.

Russ, NCNE

bigd349

Then I guess that is the way everything has to be sent in order to be protected by paypal.

bigd349

Any other suggestions

bearcave

Since paypal has went the way they have, I always do Signature Confirmation on everything I sell. I just had one that was delivered to the wrong address and because no one at that address could sign for it the PO discovered it was the wrong place and then sent it on to the correct address where it could be signed for. When checking the tracking number online it even said delivered to wrong address and rerouted to correct address.

BAJJERFAN

Its a damn shame that a seller has to go thru all the hassle and pay for extra services for the one buyer in 100 who is a low down cheatin scumbag AS$HOLE!!

ldhair

Signature Confirmation - Is that $1.80?
Can you do it with a bubble mailer?

zzzz

I'm sorry ... BUT ..
Here we have someone with well over 400 posts on these boards so it's highly unlikely he hasn't read something like this discused before.
IMHO ... I guess he just ignored the advice given
Now it happens to him and whine .. whine .. whine .. boo hoo ..
Sending items on the CHEAP ...

At the minimum anything should be sent Priority Mail WITH Signature Confirmation cost $5.65 (Insurance is extra)

If the buyer isn't happy paying $6 for getting the package to him then maybe you don't want that person as a buyer ...

PRIORITY MAIL with SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION
and most these posts would be avoided ..

JoeHolt

Let me add another to this person a sends coin person B dont receive it but the tracking shows it takeing 18 days on a priorty mail package and dont show the address where it was delivered but paypal plan syay all they need to know is it was delivered right adderss dont mater case closed. I am still waiting on that coin Im person B also had ins on it but seller never replies to me so I guess that is shot also


paypal will accept the conformation number as a proof of delivery dont have to be signed for unless over 250.00 per paypal also Beware of the 3rd party shipping they do not show the address the item really went to just where the sender entered the item going too. Example if using a 3rd party to ship even stamps.com you enter where the package is going and to who and print the lable. Well then you change the address to who you ship it to to someone else and mail package Itme will goto the address you switched to not the one the lable and conformation number are for but in USPS tracking of the number it will show going to the City, State and zip of what you entered on stamps.com or other 3rd party shipper. so be very aware of this have been dealing with this scince Sept on a coin from Ebay and paypal coin value 244.95 so did not need to be signed for I also had Ins I purchased for it but that has to be filed by shipper.


here is the auction

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11980&item=3926932780

LindeDad

Teletrade sends me my items in bubble mailers with signature Confirmation all the time. Good for valued items as the postman can't leave them in the bax when I'm not home. If had him leave insured coin worth a couple hundred dollars in the box.

ldhair

<< <i>I'm sorry ... BUT ..
Here we have someone with well over 400 posts on these boards so it's highly unlikely he hasn't read something like this discused before.
IMHO ... I guess he just ignored the advice given
Now it happens to him and whine .. whine .. whine .. boo hoo ..
Sending items on the CHEAP ...

At the minimum anything should be sent Priority Mail WITH Signature Confirmation cost $5.65 (Insurance is extra)

If the buyer isn't happy paying $6 for getting the package to him then maybe you don't want that person as a buyer ...

PRIORITY MAIL with SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION
and most these posts would be avoided .. >>


Maybe you should do a little more reading before you attack someone.
A $50 coin and you feel a buyer should pay 5.65 +1.30 = 6.95
Get real

ccex

Here's my summary of this thread: PayPal offers no protection in alleged cases of non-shipment via USPS if the seller buys postal insurance or delivery confirmation, or both. The postal carrier could toss it on any doorstop in the destination zip code and USPS considers it delivered. Signature Confirmation or Registered mail constitute necessary proof for PayPal, even though buyers do not always want to pay for these services.

Is it better to offer cheap shipping and play the odds of the coin somehow making it to the recipient?

bigd349

Hey zzzzzz, your probably one of these guys that complain about people charging to much for shipping. I think that charging $7.00 for a $50 or less item is alot. But it looks like if you don't want to get burned that's the way it’s got to be. Also I'm not whining, I'm looking for another avenue to pursue to hopefully get my money or coin back. I've sold to hundreds of people on ebay, and never had a problem with the USPS. Every one of my packages has gotten to its designation with out a problem. Every person that I've dealt with, on this board and on ebay, have been honest and upstanding people. This is the first person that I've had a problem with. It’s too bad that there has to be that one a$$hole to wreck it for everyone. I will change my shipping practices a little bit though. For the more expensive stuff ( $100 or more ) I will start using signature confirmations.

See my biggest problem with paypal right now is that the person filed a complaint the day I mailed out the item. All you have to do is look at the insurance slip with the sales slip and look at the date. They match the date he filed. So first off he is lying. Right there that should be a decision for me. He filed a false complaint and that right there should be grounds for a decision for the other person. Maybe I'm wrong or my vision is clouded, but lying is usually the worst thing you can do. If he lied about this, then what else is he lying about?

Dave

UncleJoe

What date did the auction end and what date did you mail the package?

Joe.

bigd349

The auction ended 10/13/04 and I shipped it out on the 10/14/04

bigd349

Ok I just got off the phone with paypal. It seams just as long as you have a delievery conformation saying that it was delievered, in their eyes they will side with the seller. They ( and you ) can't be held responsable for items stolen out of the mailbox. That's a job for the postal inspector and police and such. If the buyer had insurance than it than be claimed, if not then the buyer would be out the money.

Dave