Proof 1944 Mercury Dime? A Treat For The Mercury Fans... UPDATE 12/2/04: GRADE IS IN!!!

JadeRareCoin

We recently purchased a "special" Mercury Dime (images below). It is a 1944 Mercury Dime that is very prooflike and actually looks like a genuine proof coin. What makes this coin special is the fact that the U.S. Mint only struck proof Mercury Dimes from 1936 through 1942. Now the mystery begins. PCGS does not designate P/L on Mercury Dimes, however NGC does. Of the handful of P/L Mercury Dimes certified by NGC, none are Philadelphia Mint. Actually, it looks as if only 4 Mercury Dimes have been certified as P/L by NGC; 3 1941-S and 1 1942-S.

It would be naive to think that this is the only 1944-P Dime that is P/L, since this die was obviously polished at some point and the first 50 or so dimes would show mirrored fields before the fields became marred. Or........or......is this a reworked 1942 proof die? Hey, it sounds crazy, but we know that the Mint reused a 1941 die to make 1942 dimes (the famous 1942/1 at both P and D). Heck, by the looks of the radical overdate on the 1942/1-P dime, the Mint was obviously 1) in a big hurry and 2) in short supply of working dies.

We shipped this coin to NGC for encapsulation (PCGS does not slab P/L on Mercs). We will update everyone on NGC's decision. Have any of you Mercury specialists seen a 1944 P/L Dime? Our coin does have a few minor hairlines, but it will grade for sure. We just don't know if NGC will designate it as P/L. The obverse is a bit more P/L than the reverse, but both sides have a light cameo affect. The fields (especially the obverse) are nice and "watery". Our images are not the greatest, but they get they give you the general idea of this coin. Enjoy:

fountainheadgold

Wow, very nice winged liberty

eyoung429

Very sweet!!!!!!!

FC57Coins

Awesome - not only does it look proof - it looks cameo too! Congratulations!

LucyBop

Grooovy!

jmccarthy1983

I love the Michael jackson glove, gotta get me a few of those.

dorkkarl

say, did they ever find michael jackson's OTHER glove?

K S

JadeRareCoin

I love the Michael jackson glove, gotta get me a few of those.

The fact that I am wearing 100% cotton gloves to handle a proof coin proves that I could never get a job at a TPG company.

JrGMan2004

Pretty cool!

XpipedreamR

kryptonitecomics

Very nice coin, and no I have never seen a 1944 PL merc dime before

robertpr

Un-Freaking believable!!!!!!!!!!!! GREAT coin!

MAYBE NGC will actually designate it as a proof. Keep your fingers crossed!

jonesy

WoW!!!!!!!!!!!

Yousri

Very nice coin.

drdja

Thanks for the post- that's an extraordinary coin and it's great to see this additional variation in the mercury dime series. I'll be looking forward to seeing the submission results.

cohodk

Very nice. Keep us posted on the results.

solid

Very nice coin, and it may be the only one in existance. As you stated, the one
minted just before this one, and the one after probably had the same look (unless
this was a polished planchet?), but it's quite possible that none of the others
have survived!

Keep us posted, please!

Ken

Conder101

<< <i>Hey, it sounds crazy, but we know that the Mint reused a 1941 die to make 1942 dimes (the famous 1942/1 at both P and D). Heck, by the looks of the radical overdate on the 1942/1-P dime, the Mint was obviously 1) in a big hurry and 2) in short supply of working dies. >>


The 42/1 dimes were NOT the result of reusing 1941 dies. During the latter part of the year it is standard practise for the mint to be making dies for both the current and the coming year at the same time. The overdate dimes were the result of a die receiving a first hubbing from a hub with one date and then after annealing being accidently hubbed a second time with a differently dated hub. The only case of dies being used and then overdated and put back into use in the US series happened with the 1806/5 coins. And those dies didn't hold up well because of the internal strains created by the two hardening processes they were forced to endure.

CoinAddict

Sweet coin!!!

JadeRareCoin

Thank you for all of the friendly comments and opinions. The coin looks much better in person, for some reason. Probably because the coin is smaller in person. The enlarged photos show everything (good and bad). We will keep you posted on the grading results.

relayer

Nice - I think proof Mercs and WLH are good short registry sets

bestclser1

Very cool merc.Will be interested to see the grade.

Elcontador

Dennis,

Not only that, but PL surfaces will magnify any minor imperfection on its surfaces. I have an 1883 Seated Half 9that's PL) in MS 65 which is similar in this regard.

MICHAELDIXON

That's a fantastic coin! I'm very interested to know what NGC says!!!!!

ChuckC

I bet if you could get PCGS to stick "PL" on the slab, you'd be rich! Who says they won't do it?

Coinosaurus

Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to see new "discoveries".

wingedliberty

Has to be the first one off that die. WOW!!

fcloud

That coin is a real beauty! Thanks for sharing!

MERCS

The PL Mercs I've seen always are mint marks with one exception. I have a 1945-P in PL with full bands (only one I ever have seen)This 1944-P is the only other PL Philadelphia I have seen in 25 yrs of Collecting Mercs. My 45-P is PL this 1944-P looks DMPL

Bill Dominick

Tonelover

There's a 1940-D NGC MS-66 PL on this guy's website for $250. He tried it twice on ebay and don't think it broke $100. One thing I liked about his was that it's in a pre-NCS era NGC holder. NCS likes to give coins the PL designation after conserving them and that's cheating in my book.

http://www.capewaycoin.com/dimes.htm

mnmcoin

Wouldn't a proof have full split bands?

morris <><

michael

a neat coin wild!!!!!!!


michael

wingedliberty

Morris:
I don't think its a proof, but rather a prooflike early diestate.

keets

hey Dennis

we sure love mystery in Numismatics, don't we??? Condor seems to have cleared up most of the intrigue and probably gave the answer most would argue with while solid helped with part of the answer-------polished planchet. that would explain why there are so few found and would also negate any suspicion that there should be multiples from previous and subsequent strikings off the same die.

i'd say it's probably not the result of die preperation and definitely not some kind of proof despite the fact that it was struck in Philadelphia. of course, that determination will be made by the experts at NGC and their judgement will be fact, fact that we'll be forced to live with.

al h.

airplanenut

<< <i>Wouldn't a proof have full split bands? >>

Surprisingly, not all proofs actually have full bands...

JadeRareCoin

i'd say it's probably not the result of die preperation (polished planchet)


Keets, we considered that posibility. However, how would you explain why all of the devices are frosty and only the fields are mirrored? Simple: the die was lapped. We see this phenomenon in early US coinage often.

BTW, we know that this coin is rare with regard to condition (having P/L surfaces), but we also know that rarity in numismatics does not always equate to high value. It's a supply/demand thing. While there may very well be more 1804 dollars known than there are 1944 P/L Dimes, it does not make our dime worth $5,000,000. As tonelover pointed out, the branch mint P/L examples are selling in the $100 to $200 range.

The purpose of this post was to generate some discussion amongst the Winged Liberty Dime specialists in the hopes of trying to understand how a P mint dime could be found with P/L surfaces (with a light CAM affect). How did it happen? How many are known? Have you seen others? Etc, etc.

MichaelDixon searched his records and found a transaction involving a 1944-P Mercury Dime that was P/L. Was that coin a second specimen? According to his notes, it may be the same coin that we now own.

So you see, the mystery remains........

Any additional thoughts on this matter? Any theories? Any resources we could tap into?

Thanks, Dennis

keets

how would you explain why all of the devices are frosty and only the fields are mirrored?

hey Dennis

i had to go back and re-read your first post, i missed the mention of light cameo. still, judging from the pictures it looks just like other PL coins i've seen where the devices look cameo due to the contrast of the fields. you have the coin in hand, so i'll accept your statement that they're indeed frosted. though the picture below is of a clad Roosevelt, the effect is the same and further accentuated by the blue/pink tone in the fields-----and it's also a "P" mint issue, though i doubt seriously that it's anything sinister and PCGS agreed since they holdered it as MS64.

you certainly know what a proof should look like regarding rims and lettering. what's your opinion about those strike aspects?? i have two 1957-P Jeffersons in the submission pile right now, they should holder at MS65-66FS and both have highly polished PL fields and i assume they are the result of a new die. i think the only thing that makes your Merc interesting is it's production at Philly two years removed from proof strikes.

al h.

Merc

This is an interesting 1944 dime. I have never seen a PL or DMPL mercury dime. I wonder if it is like the special mint sent coins that occasionally came out as a mirrored cameo coin even though they were not proofs. Looks like the blank planchet was pollished and was struck under high pressure.

jom

<< <i>NCS likes to give coins the PL designation after conserving them and that's cheating in my book. >>



I don't understand this. Why is it cheating? Either the coin is P/L or it isn't...

jom

tradedollarnut

Perhaps a better explanation is an errant proof planchet struck by regular dies?

JadeRareCoin

Perhaps a better explanation is an errant proof planchet struck by regular dies?

But why are the devices frosted and only the fields mirrored? I am going with lapped dies on this one.

coinguy1

Dennis, as I'm sure you are aware, there are many Proof coins without frosted devices and a good number of business strikes that do display some frost on the devices.

So, the fact that this coin has frosted devices might make it highly uncommon for a business strike Mercury Dime, but that's the end of the story. It is not a Proof!

Not all Proof Mercury Dimes have FB, but they do typically possess better detail than your coin does.

I have seen many PL Mercs over the years, including some original rolls that were mostly PL. These coins are certainly not "common", but they can be found and I believe the published populations will increase significantly, given enough time.

Your coin looks really cool, but, in my opinion, at least, any discussion about it being a Proof is wishful thinking and dreaming. That said, I guess dreaming is part of what makes this hobby fun.

Stuart

Dennis: That's a very cool Mercury Dime! Thanks for sharing and please do update us on what grade & designation NGC attribute to this very special dime.

JadeRareCoin

any discussion about it being a Proof is wishful thinking and dreaming

Mark, I don't think that you read the info in the post. We never said it was proof but rather prooflike. The last year for proof Mercury dimes was 1942. We said that it was prooflike. Furthermore, we never claimed that it was a high dollar coin or an extreme rarity. I stated ealrier in this post that this thread was posted to inspire conversation and share knowledge. In other words, to help solve a small numismatic mystery: Why would there be P/L 1944 dime with a slight CAM?

Edited to sound more friendly..

UncleJoe

Joe.

coinguy1

Dennis, I read the thread. Now, it's YOUR turn to read your own thread's title. And, my comments were not directed only at you - my apologies if I gave that mistaken impression.

JadeRareCoin

Now, it's YOUR turn to read your own thread's title.

The title has a question mark, meaning that I was just teasing. The body of the initial post clearly indicates that we know it is not a proof.

keets

hey Dennis

a couple of us have given reasonable and soundly based explanations which you seem to want to reject in favor of something more sinister, something that a Merc specialist might provide, perhaps something akin to Numismatic Folklore. Mark's experience of seeing other coins seems to indicate that it may indeed be a re-polished die or perhaps a new die, though re-polished seems more likely. also, the fact that Mercury collectors aren't going nuts over coins like this one or the one at the site linked by tonelover on page two seems to indicate that they may be more widespread than widely known. the fact that the coin most likely came off of a polished die as opposed to a polished planchet---which is what coinguy seems to have shown from having seen an entire roll---tells me they would be graded lower and maybe not submitted when found.

the grade your coin receives will help solve that riddle.

al h.

coinfreak499

JadeRareCoin

a couple of us have given reasonable and soundly based explanations which you seem to want to reject in favor of something more sinister

Huh? Perhaps you would care to give your definition of the word "sinister". Some quick facts:

1) the coin is not for sale
2) this was just a friendly thread to show something that is not very common in numismatics (Have you seen one? I have not.)
3) the 2 coins linked in this thread by others comprise approximately 50% of the entire population of Mercury dimes graded P/L at NGC
4) we stated emphatically in this thread that the coin was not a valuable coin, as we researched sales history of P/L Mercs prior to submitting the coin to NGC

You and a couple of others suggested "polished planchet". Not so. It was likely struck with a pair of freshly lapped dies. Does that increase the value? No, of course not. You offered your explanation, but I don't know how "sound or reasonable" it really is. It's okay to have different opinions and we can still all be friends.

This is really just an exercise in understanding the mechanics of coin production at the U.S. Mint. Prooflike coins go back to the very first days of the U.S. Mint. I own several P/L Bust coins (half dimes and halves) that were struck from freshly lapped business dies. My "theory" is that our new Mercury dime was struck with a pair of dies that had recently been serviced at the Mint, perhaps to remove die lines, scratches or damage otherwise. By lapping dies, only the highest points of the dies are polished. The high points of the dies are the fields on the struck coin. That explains the light Cameo effect.

wingedliberty

Sand blasting?