I got ripped!!!

mnmcoin · October 20, 2004 7:34AM

About two weeks ago I bought what I thought were 26 tenth ounce platinum Amer. Eagles...turned out they were counterfeit. I heard something about some story on them in Coin World, but too late. Anybody know anything about these fakes...real platinum just fake coins...or what?

I bought them at my shop and had no idea they were counterfeitable. Bought them from a walk in woman with her son (about 12 years old my guess) She said he got them from his grandmother when she passed away. I had no inkling at all that they would be fake.

I wrote her a check that she deposited in her account. I have her address and phone #.

Anybody have any idea if there is any recourse in this situation. Either with her or the authorities.

What do I do with the coins when I get them back? Turn them in to the Secret Service?

morris <><

dthigpen · October 20, 2004 7:37AM

Secret Service would be a good place to start.

XpipedreamR · October 20, 2004 7:39AM

Sorry to hear this. How did you find out they were fake? Definitely report it to the authorities, SS or whomever. I'm sure they would be interested in someone passing quantities of counterfeit loot.

Russ · October 20, 2004 7:43AM

<< How did you find out they were fake? >>

<< What do I do with the coins when I get them back? >>

Russ, NCNE

lordmarcovan · October 20, 2004 7:45AM

Maybe this was the story?

I remember reading about it somewhere in the trade publications.

CarlWohlforth · October 20, 2004 7:53AM

Yikes! I'm sorry to hear about this Morris.

DominusDeus · October 20, 2004 7:56AM

Interesting... this is the first I've heard of this...

kranky · October 20, 2004 7:56AM

On the fake, the R in LIBERTY is on top of the ray. On the genuine, it's beneath the ray.

rcmlgm89 · October 20, 2004 8:00AM

Try the FBI and see if your Bank will send your check back.
Good luck

relayer · October 20, 2004 8:16AM

Bummer - I'd start with the local police - and stop payment on the check

Purple73 · October 20, 2004 8:17AM

Man, Now that sucks!

I offen wondered what I could do with a CNC Lathe and CadCam and Other CNC equipment that is in the shop. Only thing I ever made was Quarter slugs and put them in the Vybrodyne to smooth them up but never tried them out. I know they were the same weight and diameter. They Probably would have worked. My conscience kept me from trying them out and I just chucked them. But ohhh the Possibities.

Reading the link Lord M posted kinda confirmed what can be done with good equipment. To make a good set of dies that would produce Very believable coinage would not be hard at all with the software and machine technology we have today. I wouldn't use CadCam though. It's pretty clunky. SurfCam would be good. There's other software out there that( coupled with with another program) that would would be fabulous.

It's too bad people actually do this kinda thing. Guess they don't have a clue what kinda of trouble they get into doing this.

Chris

coinguy89 · October 20, 2004 8:20AM

Take em down!

Myqqy · October 20, 2004 8:43AM

I'm sorry to hear that you got taken by somebody. Let us know about what process you end up going through with the authorities. I hope you get your money back!!

kieferscoins · October 20, 2004 8:49AM

Keep us updated and contact your local Secret Service field office This large of a deal will attract their attention.

Cameron Kiefer

Neptune · October 20, 2004 9:03AM

OUCH! Sorry to hear of your woes. If you haven't, I would definitely call the lady first and foremost. If she does not offer a resolution, then let her know that you will be contacting the appropriate authorities and she will probably end up in a cell with Martha.

Good luck!

mnmcoin · October 20, 2004 4:13PM

<< Sorry to hear this. How did you find out they were fake? Definitely report it to the authorities, SS or whomever. I'm sure they would be interested in someone passing quantities of counterfeit loot. >>

I am pretty much just passing any bullion type stuff that I get over the counter to one of two or three large dealers near me...so I shipped them out to one of them about a week or so ago and he called me up today and told me the news.

morris <><

mnmcoin · October 20, 2004 4:15PM

<< Bummer - I'd start with the local police - and stop payment on the check

>>

Check already cleared my bank...at least that is what it says on my online statement.

morris <><

mnmcoin · October 20, 2004 4:21PM

<< OUCH! Sorry to hear of your woes. If you haven't, I would definitely call the lady first and foremost. If she does not offer a resolution, then let her know that you will be contacting the appropriate authorities and she will probably end up in a cell with Martha.

Good luck! >>

Thank you all for your concerns and ideas on this. As soon as I receive the coins back from the dealer I shipped them to I am going to try and call the lady and work it out with her (I have no idea if I have any recourse at all with her, but I will try) I have to at first give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she meant no malicious intent. I am just bummed because it was cool to see her and her son's eyes light up when I told them how much they were worth...and now I have to ask for the money back.

If this does not work out without any kinks I suppose I will try the local authorities first then see what they suggest.

If all else fails, at least I will have learned something from this...that is to cover my butt a little more when purchasing something like this. Perhaps getting id and phone info on a purchase invoice along with a signature stating I have the right to return items if counterfeit.

I'll try and keep everyone posted on what I learn.

morris <><

Rampage · October 20, 2004 7:11PM

Sorry to hear of your loss.

zzzz · October 20, 2004 7:45PM

I really doubt you have any recourse. As a "Dealer" I would think you'd know the differance between real and fake ...

As it stands now, the way I see it, she came in and on good faith and the proffesional dealer (you) offered and she excepted.

If she does reimburse you anything feel very greatful.

You know her name and where the check was, I hope, deposited.
Are their any other dealers in a 50 mile radias of her home?
Contact those dealers to see if she approached them with similar coins?
If yes and they told her they were fakes and she still came to you then you might have recourse.
If she sold them some then there might be a pattern of her knowingly passed the fakes.

Don't expect the government to do much leg work for you. I was given 2 $100 counterfeits I had recieved from a payout at a casino. when I went to the bank it confiscated the notes. Was anything done .. NO .. Even though I knew exactly were the notes came from.

pharmer · October 20, 2004 11:10PM

I would try to be absolutely sure they are counterfeit, rather than having one opinion. Maybe you were right to begin with. It is a serious charge, and should be pursued if true, but make sure it is. Seems only the original issuer, the government, can make an iron-clad determination.

bushmaster8 · October 20, 2004 11:21PM

<< 
Don't expect the government to do much leg work for you. I was given 2 $100 counterfeits I had recieved from a payout at a casino. when I went to the bank it confiscated the notes. Was anything done .. NO .. Even though I knew exactly were the notes came from. >>

Are you saying that the Federal Government of the USA is apathetic?!

Ohhh, man, you're leaning on my dream! Say it ain't so!

XpipedreamR · October 20, 2004 11:42PM

Al least you can probably gt the face value of the coins back as a tax deduction...isn't that what happens

Conder101 · October 21, 2004 3:21AM

If by contacting other dealers you can determine that there is a pattern of knowingly passing fakes you might be able to have her charged with passing the fakes. As for getting you money back, well if she is honest she might do so. If she doesn't there is probably not much you can do as if you bought them as a dealer it would be presumed that you should have known if they were real of fake. If you get the secret service or the federal government involved they will simply confiscate the fakes and you get nothing. If they are like the ones in the ICg story they are not even platinum so there is not even scrap value. Your best chance is if you are a dealer will be to write them off as a business loss on your taxes.

relayer · October 21, 2004 3:44AM

Unfortunately, Morris is the "expert" compared to the woman who sold them since he is in the coin business.

If he couldn't tell they were fake, I'm not sure the woman who sold them would be held to the standard of knowing they were fake. It depends where she got them from and if she knew they were fakes.

bengals · October 21, 2004 3:58AM

maybe the dealer that you've sent the coins to is lying?

291fifth · October 21, 2004 4:55AM

How are you going to prove that the counterfeits are the coins she sold you? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

TWQG · October 21, 2004 5:09AM

I don't think the secret service will get involved with a $2200 crime.

dthigpen · October 21, 2004 5:10AM

<< I don't think the secret service will get involved with a $2200 crime. >>

When it comes to counterfeiting, I've seen them get involved in cases that involved a much lower face value of counterfeited goods.

itsnotjustme · October 21, 2004 6:19AM

<< really doubt you have any recourse. >>

I strongly disagree. Passing counterfeit US Coin/Currency is a felony. I feel you should contact authorities first and let them sort out if she was just a victim as well or involved in a scheme. If she is in a scheme, she will likely claim ignorance but refund your money to keep from being reported. Authorities should have the best data to learn if there is a pattern. If it is not reported, they will not have this sample data.

You may only be able to get your money back if she is convicted, but you need to try to protect others.

Topdollarpaid · October 21, 2004 6:24AM

This is Randy from Sun city Coin I am located about 15 miles from Morris’s shop.

The lady with the 27 fake platinum coins came here and I told her they were fake.

They are positively Counterfeit

The wholesaler that Morris sent them to is 100% Honest.

I don't think it is a good idea to question his honesty.

The coins weigh only about 2.6 grams and when you look at them with a 10x loop you can see they are crudely made.

I also told her not to sell them and she is well aware that it is a felony.

She absolutely knows the coins she sold are counterfeit.

I have contacted Morris and tried to help, but if she won't refund the money it is most likely a lost cause.

Mistercoinman · October 21, 2004 7:29AM

The same thing happened to me with some gold mexican coins about 6 years ago. They turned out to be silver but nontheless I was already out the cash. At the very least you wrote a check so you have a paper trail. I hope it all works out for you. Fred

oreville · October 21, 2004 8:59AM

Ah, now the story evolves. This poor innocent woman has now been witnessed as attempting to sell conterfeit $ as real.

Topdollarpaid sound like a key witness in a felony perpretrated on Morris.

I would not back down so easy, Morris. This woman must be stopped.

robertpr · October 21, 2004 9:14AM

I agree. If she really did try to sell them elsewhere and were informed they were fake, and took the coins to Morris and sold them without even disclosing that she was informed they were fake, I would tell her that is a felony and if she doesn't refund you completely she will be reported to the Secret Service and will most likely face charges. I'd bet she'll be in the shop five minutes after hanging up the phone, refunding your money.

Just be sure to get cash from her, and not a check or another instrument that can be stopped or reversed. Also, when she does lay down the cash, inspect it carefully

Conder101 · October 21, 2004 10:05PM

<< I agree. If she really did try to sell them elsewhere and were informed they were fake, and took the coins to Morris and sold them without even disclosing that she was informed they were fake, >>

My turn to play devils advocate.

If you take some coins to a dealer and he tells you they are fake, but you don't think so and take them elsewhere, are you obligated to inform the second dealer of what the first dealer said? I don't think so. (After all the first dealer might have been trying to lowball you and buy them for scrap.)

mrearlygold · October 21, 2004 10:13PM

Wow sorry to hear about this.

But it's probably a lost cause. Does anyone really think that law enforcement is going to get involved? Seriously?

Tom

XpipedreamR · October 21, 2004 10:22PM

<< I bought them at my shop and had no idea they were counterfeitable. Bought them from a walk in woman with her son (about 12 years old my guess) She said he got them from his grandmother when she passed away. I had no inkling at all that they would be fake. >>

Based on what I've heard, I'm just guessing that the lady knew they were fake.

I ran a coffee shop for a while, and that was a pretty common MO for various scammers who came into the shop, i.e., to incorporate the kid into the scam somehow.

Pretty low, in my opinion

XpipedreamR · October 21, 2004 10:28PM

<< 

<< I agree. If she really did try to sell them elsewhere and were informed they were fake, and took the coins to Morris and sold them without even disclosing that she was informed they were fake, >>

My turn to play devils advocate.

If you take some coins to a dealer and he tells you they are fake, but you don't think so and take them elsewhere, are you obligated to inform the second dealer of what the first dealer said? I don't think so. (After all the first dealer might have been trying to lowball you and buy them for scrap.) >>

This dealer in this case told her that they were fake, refused to buy them, and told her it would be a felony to try to sell them. Clearly, he wasn't trying to lowball her.

So, in this case, if I were her, I would probably think there was a good chance they were fake, and I would feel really odd about going and selling them to another dealer without mentioning this concern

tgilliams · October 21, 2004 11:01PM

the obverse rays on the the fake are incorrect. can't remember whether the rays are over or under the word LIBERTY. also the luster looks different and was not comparable to the real coin. ICG had a story on their site also. not sure if it's still, but they were the ones that found the counterfeit. check their site-think its icg.com. i'm so sorry, but the SS WILL hopefully assist you

agentjim007 · October 21, 2004 11:29PM

How do you prove they were the same coins she sold you?

EVillageProwler · October 22, 2004 12:40AM

How do you prove they were the same coins she sold you?

Randy can testify that that woman came to him w/ counterfeit plats. Morris bought counterfeit plats from the same woman. I think this circumstantial evidence is strong enough that most jurors will infer the obvious.

EVP

I got ripped!!!

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