Why there aren't more AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
People have probably been artificially toning coins as long as there has been a huge premium assigned to monster toned coins.
The people who would be most able to determine what is artificially toned and what is not artificially toned are the folks who were around before there were too many AT coins floating around.
From what I know, small premiums have always been assigned to nice originally toned coins but the premiums have only grown large over the past 10-15 years for monsters.
When bags of Morgans were released, many of the toned coins were dipped because there wasn't a premium paid for toned Morgans.
There were many people who were around when the bags were released. Many of them are still around in the coin business.
John Albanese and David Hall (the owners/managers of the two largest grading services) are two people that have been in the coin business a long time. I bet you my dollars to your donunts that they have seen many toned coins before artificially toning coins was the industry it is today - they have probably pulled many Morgans out of bags sealed by the mint in the late 1800s.
I assume that John Albanese and David Hall have been able to properly pass along their knowledge to their employees in the identification of AT coins especially Morgans. They also serve as quality control to their quality control. They also have the resources and incentive to retain and acquire information about what has and is currently being done in the way of ATing coins and what they look like.
Do they make mistakes? They will admit they do. Do they make many? Probably not.
But with regard to the very best AT coins that slip through PCGS and NGC ......who cares? If looks good enough for PCGS and NGC, it's good enough for me.
Now, that logic is applicable to coins and not necessarily everything else. In other words, I don't want to be seen with a woman, no matter how beautiful she is, if 'she' is really a transvestite.
The people who would be most able to determine what is artificially toned and what is not artificially toned are the folks who were around before there were too many AT coins floating around.
From what I know, small premiums have always been assigned to nice originally toned coins but the premiums have only grown large over the past 10-15 years for monsters.
When bags of Morgans were released, many of the toned coins were dipped because there wasn't a premium paid for toned Morgans.
There were many people who were around when the bags were released. Many of them are still around in the coin business.
John Albanese and David Hall (the owners/managers of the two largest grading services) are two people that have been in the coin business a long time. I bet you my dollars to your donunts that they have seen many toned coins before artificially toning coins was the industry it is today - they have probably pulled many Morgans out of bags sealed by the mint in the late 1800s.
I assume that John Albanese and David Hall have been able to properly pass along their knowledge to their employees in the identification of AT coins especially Morgans. They also serve as quality control to their quality control. They also have the resources and incentive to retain and acquire information about what has and is currently being done in the way of ATing coins and what they look like.
Do they make mistakes? They will admit they do. Do they make many? Probably not.
But with regard to the very best AT coins that slip through PCGS and NGC ......who cares? If looks good enough for PCGS and NGC, it's good enough for me.
Now, that logic is applicable to coins and not necessarily everything else. In other words, I don't want to be seen with a woman, no matter how beautiful she is, if 'she' is really a transvestite.
0
Comments
<< <i>
But with regard to the very best AT coins that slip through PCGS and NGC ......who cares? If looks good enough for PCGS and NGC, it's good enough for me.
Now, that logic is applicable to coins and not necessarily everything else. In other words, I don't want to be seen with a woman, no matter how beautiful she is, if 'she' is really a transvestite. >>
Would it be fair, then, to infer that if it doesn't look good enough for PCGS or NGC, then it isn't good enough for you?
That's not really how it works IMO. You cannot easily pass along the knowledge or experience you gain in 20-30 of looking at coins. I would suspect that PCGS hires graders that are already very skilled at identifying bad coins on their own.
And yes, I have also pulled many Morgan dollars out of original mint sealed canvas bags, including some really cool toned ones, and that definately gives you a bit of experience, but it takes a lot more to become proficient in spotting the bad ones IMO.
That's a very dangerous line of thinking.
1. If you think the coin is AT, or if you later learn that it is or may be AT, you're probably not going to enjoy owning it nearly as much as you would an NT coin.
2. When the time comes to sell, you're not going to be selling to the grading service. A collector will need to like the coin and buy it.
3. If you sell the coin to a collector who mistakenly thinks the coin is NT, and then he finds out that it's not, your relationship with that collector suffers.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No. Not everything that floats is a duck. (Witches float and they're not ducks.)
BTW - this is NOT a commentary on your ebay coin. I don't find it at all attractive, but I have no opinion on the origin of its toning.
The high premiums on toned coins are probably causing the destruction of a lot of coins with orignal white luster. As times goes on and this practice continues, the coins with original luster and very little toning, if any at all, will become increasingly harder to find. Supply and demand will dictate price.
I am trying to stay away from toned coins with the high premiums and build my collections with clean, bright coins with original surfaces.
-Snoodle
<< <i>Could the premiums being paid for toned coins be a passing fad? Will the pendulum swing the other way in 10 to 15 years and place a higher premium on original surfaces that are clean white and bright?
The high premiums on toned coins are probably causing the destruction of a lot of coins with orignal white luster. As times goes on and this practice continues, the coins with original luster and very little toning, if any at all, will become increasingly harder to find. Supply and demand will dictate price.
I am trying to stay away from toned coins with the high premiums and build my collections with clean, bright coins with original surfaces.
-Snoodle >>
If the surfaces are clean bright white then chances are the coin is not original but a doctored coin unless you collect recently minted moderns.
Hits the nail on the head.
I relate this no differently than buying and selling: When buying it is one grade lower and when selling it is one grade higher. It all depends on which side of the fence you are on. Similar to politics.
Joe.
<< <i>Why there aren't more AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders >>
Is it because you don't submit coins for grading?
(Just kidding)
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i><< Why there aren't more AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders >> >>
Because if they have any question about the toning they bag it. Why not, they already have your money whether they slab it or not. Bagging a bunch of NT coins won't hurt them becase someone else will send them in and they'll get paid again.
<< <i>
<< <i><< Why there aren't more AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders >> >>
Because if they have any question about the toning they bag it. Why not, they already have your money whether they slab it or not. Bagging a bunch of NT coins won't hurt them becase someone else will send them in and they'll get paid again. >>
I have to humbly disagree Conder. If you send in enough authentic, NT coins to PCGS that bag you are likely to stop using their Services. Sure, someone might come along after you but your business with PCGS has then severely decreased.
I would think the best business course is to get it right the first time and to be consistent.
peacockcoins
Also, I've said this before and it's worth repeating.........many of the artificially toned coins are done so to hide or mask OTHER problems or doctoring with the coin such as light cleaning, tooling, puttying or otherwise filling bagmarks, hairlines, scratches, spots and stains, poor lustre, etc........they are not artificially toned to make the coin worth a premium as an attractively toned coin necessarily.
<< <i>The people who would be most able to determine what is artificially toned and what is not artificially toned are the folks who were around before there were too many AT coins floating around. >>
I agree totally- I started getting serious about coins in the late 70's and early 80's as a teenager and I never ever saw the amount of color toned coins that can be seen at shows today. I bet it's 10X compared to what it was. mike
<< <i>Also, I've said this before and it's worth repeating.........many of the artificially toned coins are done so to hide or mask OTHER problems or doctoring with the coin such as light cleaning, tooling, puttying or otherwise filling bagmarks, hairlines, scratches, spots and stains, poor lustre, etc........they are not artificially toned to make the coin worth a premium as an attractively toned coin necessarily >>
I strongly agree with Dragon. Many people don't realize how often it is the reasons above (rather than the high prices which beautifully toned coins bring), which account for so many of the AT coins on the market.
Many of those AT coins on the market are not even that attractive in terms of the AT because their reason for existance is to hide problems and not to make beautiful coinage.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The idea of "if it's good enough for ____ (fill in the blank grading service), it must / should be market acceptable," is NOT acceptable to me. For every coin on which I submit a bid, on average, I'll pass on three of them which are the same denomination, same date & mintmark, and same grade & holder.
There are plenty of coins which the majors deem to be market acceptable that to me are about as 'desirable' as a potential spouse who is half-way through a sex change operation, or the wrestler that calls her / itself "The Beast."
Coins which come to mind are the majority of slabbed Bust $s in the AU 50-55 range, most Seated $s in Ms 64 & MS 65 and most Trade $s in MS 65 & MS 66 which I have seen (note, I have not seen TDN's Seated or Trade Dollars).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
"If looks good enough for PCGS and NGC, it's good enough for me."
Andy Lustig said:
That's a very dangerous line of thinking.
1. If you think the coin is AT, or if you later learn that it is or may be AT, you're probably not going to enjoy owning it nearly as much as you would an NT coin.
2. When the time comes to sell, you're not going to be selling to the grading service. A collector will need to like the coin and buy it.
3. If you sell the coin to a collector who mistakenly thinks the coin is NT, and then he finds out that it's not, your relationship with that collector suffers.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
My responses, one at a time so as to allow you to gut me, one by one:
"1. If you think the coin is AT, or if you later learn that it is or may be AT, you're probably not going to enjoy owning it nearly as much as you would an NT coin."
First of all, I think the question is bad because you have two potentially incorrect assumptions in it:
Why would I think the coin is AT if PCGS or NGC has concluded that it is not market acceptable? How would I find out that the coin is AT?
I have indeed looked at some coins and thought, "Hmmmm......looks like it might be AT to me" or "I would not be surprised if they body bagged the coin if it were sent in again"
HOWEVER......I have seen quite a number of incredibly (and you might want to look that word up in the dictionary) toned coins that would get body bagged if they were sent in again which look original to me. They body bag some coins that look NT to me and they holder some coins that look AT to me.
Other folks have just the opposite opinions. AND, my opinions can change from time to time. Take tradedollarnut's tradedollar that appears at the bottom of his postings. I would give my left...uh....well, suffice it to say that at least the icon of the coin makes the coin looks TO DIE FOR. However, I bet many people, judging soley from the image would render an opinion that the coin is AT, and believe me, I'm sure the coin isn't, simply based upon the fact that it is owned by TDN.
So, yes, I have opinions about coins and whether they are AT or NT when they are in holders.....however....how many times have we told newbies "if you want to learn about natural toning, take a look at what the major grading services put into holders" and if you haven't told a newbie that, then what would you tell them....to take an ANA course on grading coins?
It's all an opinion. And, when it comes to opinions, I have mine but while I may be called many things on this board, I certainly have not been called arogant, which is what I would be called if I said that my opinion about AT and NT was better than PCGS and NGC.
So, with regard to enjoyment, if it's in a holder, I'll enjoy it because I won't think it's AT (whatever that is). And that's the truth.
A) There is no such term as 'market acceptable', it's either good or it's not.
That may be a lack of experience which will correct itself with time in most cases.
C) All of the PCGS holdered coins I've seen online that you have in your inventory look good. You may be making too much of this IMO.
That's true but you're incorrectly assuming that the tastes of graders at the grading services differs from that of collectors. Most graders started out as collectors of coins.
Again .....you have placed another incorrect assumption in your statement which is that somehow a collector has or will have access to information that a grading service doesn't. How is a collector going to come to the conclusion that a coin is AT when a grading service doesn't have access to this information?
I take coins seriously but we must keep things in perspective - we are dealing in coins, not human kidneys or lungs. No one needs coins.
When I sell a coin, my clients see an image of it and they see it in hand. If they don't like it when they get it, they can return it. I own every single coin that I offer for sale. I sell what I like because I buy what I like. I don't buy coins for people and I don't service want lists. It has to pass my approval.
My clients are not children. Most of the coins I sell are not cheap. They can formulate their own opinions. I volunteer enormous quantities of information about coins (get me on the phone and you'll see.) If they ask me a question about a coin, I answer it honestly.
If I knew someone was artificially toning coins and was able to pass them through the services, I would alert the grading services to the activities and try to help them not holder the coins.
I would not buy a coin that I knew to be artificially toned however, I have only on one occasion seen coins in holders that I KNEW had been artificially toned. Have I seen coins in holders that I thought may have been artificially toned?...Yes, but very few. (I saw a seated quarter with some rim toning in a PCGS holder that looked suspicious. I didn't buy it because it was ugly.) Did I know them to be AT...No.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><< Why there aren't more AT coins in PCGS and NGC holders >> >>
Because if they have any question about the toning they bag it. Why not, they already have your money whether they slab it or not. Bagging a bunch of NT coins won't hurt them becase someone else will send them in and they'll get paid again. >>
I have to humbly disagree Conder. If you send in enough authentic, NT coins to PCGS that bag you are likely to stop using their Services. Sure, someone might come along after you but your business with PCGS has then severely decreased.
I would think the best business course is to get it right the first time and to be consistent. >>
Actually, human nature and the business model would go the other way - PCGS and NGC indicate with their grading guarantee, that if they "get it wrong" they will either down-grade the coin (or presumably if its AT, de-certify it) and pay you the difference in value - so in that scenerio, if they make the wrong call, THEY PAY you. On the other hand, if they bag it or put it in the lower grade you will have to re-submit it and YOU PAY them - So, from a business prospective, whcih model would you adopt: The one they you have to pay for your mistakes, or they have to pay you when you "get it wrong".? Second, the graders KNOW that there are people out there trying to ""slip one by" and they really don't like the "doctors" to get away with fooling them, so they would rather bag your coin and be "wrong" than grade it and be made a "fool" - (Dumb professional grader! - I cooked it in my basement yesterday & he can't tell the real stuf from the "shake & bake"). I don't think it would take too long to figure out which way you should grade if you have a grade guarantee.
It's very easy - as a grader, if you even think its not the real deal - you bag it - they're consistent, they consistently would rather err on the side of NOT slabbing a questionable coin, (and get paid when it gets re-submitted again & sometimes again) - then have the boss come in and tell 'em what an idiot they are for grading coins that are now in their (the TPGS's ) holder and being laughed at by us sharp-eyed " forum image graders as being AT. Not too many graders for PCGS or NGC would want to be know as the grader who consistently got snookered and cot the company a whole lot of money and embarrassment. Not exactly the ticket to job longevity or promotion
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>How is a collector going to come to the conclusion that a coin is AT when a grading service doesn't have access to this information? >>
They try and cross it or crack it and try for an upgrade, but this time it comes back bagged as AT.