Sick of everyone worshipping PCGS's butt. Some of the classic greatest rarities, like this 1933 eagle, are in the slab of NGC. Some of the classic rarities are NOT even listed as existing at all in the PCGS price reports, because they have NOT HAD THE PLEASURE OF EVEN GRADING ANY OF THEM. I LOVE seeing switches on classic big time rarities to NGC from PCGS. PCGS is not God. I think NGC got the grade correct, not PCGS.
Another thing, coynclecter. That coin going to auction I THINK realized WAY more than it would of if just "placed in an add". For it to have bid that high, there HAS TO BE AT LEAST TWO BIDDERS. Not just one person making an offer. Some day, you'll get it.
I think you are trying to be funny, but the truth is, I lived in LA for 6 years, and the 2000 Long Beach show from heritage was MY FIRST BIG AUCTION I EVER ATTENDED!!! I thought the Indian Eagle's were (and still are to me) the prettiest coins, with that strikingly strong eagle, and liberty indian head dress!!! I DID see it, and I don't remember much except that I knew I held in my hand back then, one of my dream coins. I thought, with a glass even, it was PERFECT. I mean, I have seen probably 4 live, and many others in pictures. Heck, the Richmond Collection sold a MS64 NGC for $276,000, and I thought (from pictures) it was chopped up with an ax.
I'd pay a million for that coin, if I had the extra laying around.
Lloyd, you made a good point. You cannot bring together 2 "must have it" bidders via fixed price lists. You can't do it through a display case at a show either. There are a number of well-heeled buyers out there who will not buy direct in a private sale (dealer or collector) unless the price can be proven to be at current market. However, in an auction environment, these people feel much safer when bidding in real time. The gloves come off and the wars start...for the right coins.
Though the prices often seem high at first coming out of auctions, they often turn out to be bargains. Again, it's why so many dealers shop there. I always find it interesting which major players do not bid at auction (Legend is not in that group). They either claim the prices are always too high or they can buy it elsewhere and still sell it cheaper. Right! Unfortunately the real answer also includes the fact that some of those other dealers cannot compete at those levels without losing their shirts, and that they cannot grade quite good enough to survive. Hence they rely on getting coins far cheaper from sacrificial sellers who don't know any better.
Don't put too much weight into it!!! Back then, I wasn't even thinking of coin grades as that big of a deal. (Like today). I just simply recall that being the first one I had ever seen, and every specimen AFTER it, nicked up pretty good...
You said the seller may not have had 50 bidders/buyers interested. ALL HE NEEDS IS TWO!!! Maybe the seller expected $500,000 when he put it up for sale!! Wouldn't you think he would GLADLY pay and thank the middleman auction in this case???
You know I contemplated long and hard about whether to post anything here again regarding this topic but what Laura at Legend sent me privately today was so unprofessional, rude and insulting that I have taken offense by it and was so shocked that I can't believe they are still in business with that demeanor. I am not posting it here (although I probably should) because I am used to taking abuse as I am a debt collector by trade and I take it all day long every day so have become numbed by it. But NOT from people I consider business professionals and certainly not from people I choose to do business with. I have a multi-million dollar collection of 20th Century gold coins with some really nice and desirable coins and I am MUCH CLOSER TO SELLING than buying any more coins. I think you made a mistake today Laura and you owe me an apology!
Whether you agree or disagree with my OPINION about any coin I am still entitled to my opinion. I stated specifically I had not seen the Stack's 1933 coin and that I was relying on the photos to draw my conclusion. Furthermore I said I felt the coin was worth the money paid and said nothing negative about your coin other than it was probably a PCGS MS65 upgrade (evidently it is). I also stated that although I was not a grader, I believed (and have been told) my coin is a shot MS66 (I am sure it has been tried maybe more than once even) and that it could be the finest known. I suspect Heritage would not let an upgrade opportunity just pass them by but this coin was brokered for a fee so they may not have tried it for that reason and not wanted to tie up that kind of money. Who knows?
BTW, Heritage took the photo of my 1933 $10 Indian not I. I do not believe you were EVER offered my coin as you would definitely have bought it at the price I bought it for or even less maybe if you were lucky. Perhaps it was a different MS65 coin you were offered as there was more than one 1933 recently available.
I just can't believe you took this out of proportion like you did. I am done ranting and raving now and will get back to enjoying my weekend.
<< <i>You know I contemplated long and hard about whether to post anything here again regarding this topic but what Laura at Legend sent me privately today was so unprofessional, rude and insulting that I have taken offense by it and was so shocked that I can't believe they are still in business with that demeanor. I am not posting it here (although I probably should) because I am used to taking abuse as I am a debt collector by trade and I take it all day long every day so have become numbed by it. But NOT from people I consider business professionals and certainly not from people I choose to do business with. I have a multi-million dollar collection of 20th Century gold coins with some really nice and desirable coins and I am MUCH CLOSER TO SELLING than buying any more coins. I think you made a mistake today Laura and you owe me an apology!
Whether you agree or disagree with my OPINION about any coin I am still entitled to my opinion. I stated specifically I had not seen the Stack's 1933 coin and that I was relying on the photos to draw my conclusion. Furthermore I said I felt the coin was worth the money paid and said nothing negative about your coin other than it was probably a PCGS MS65 upgrade (evidently it is). I also stated that although I was not a grader, I believed (and have been told) my coin is a shot MS66 (I am sure it has been tried maybe more than once even) and that it could be the finest known. I suspect Heritage would not let an upgrade opportunity just pass them by but this coin was brokered for a fee so they may not have tried it for that reason and not wanted to tie up that kind of money. Who knows?
BTW, Heritage took the photo of my 1933 $10 Indian not I. I do not believe you were EVER offered my coin as you would definitely have bought it at the price I bought it for or even less maybe if you were lucky. Perhaps it was a different MS65 coin you were offered as there was more than one 1933 recently available.
I just can't believe you took this out of proportion like you did. I am done ranting and raving now and will get back to enjoying my weekend. >>
JP....
It would be unfortunate if you let a remark Laura made run you away from the forum, because you said not one thing wrong that I saw. Sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt around here.
<< <i>I accept being called names. I accept being rude and crude. I LOVE being called a blow hard by people with chips on their shoulders.
The fact is, things have been distorted here. I love it that jpkinla is crying wounded by me.
My last statement is: he doesn't think I was offered his coin? Well I WAS. I was offered it BEFORE Heritage was. I was offered it as partial trade for my 1913 Nickel. I was also offered (but couldn't agree on price) the Ultra High Relief.
I did PM him. And yes, I was nasty, but hey, I am angry. He didn't even have the courage to reply. He comes here and whines in public. Then calls me rude. If thats how he feels, YES, I AM!
All I can do is state my case. I CAN add even more facts if I have too. But regardless for what people think of me here, I have my limits of what I'll say-even if its in my defense. There are MORE facts, serious facts that I could say that would NOT make jpkinla happy.
So yet again I am made out to be the big evil b*tchy dealer. Its ok, because I will still answer every PM I get from any one who needs help. I will still be here-like it or not. I know the REAL facts and I can sleep at night. I felt a need to defend a major purchase. That is why I attacked.
I do want to make one thing clear, I am NOT knocking the quality of his coin. He has a PCGS MS65. Its a great coin. I am infuriated that he thinks its equal or better than mine-it is a KNOWN fact it is NOT.
So flame away at me. At this point is childish for me to let this thread go on. I do appologize to the public for insulting you for having this stuff posted, but you all know I will always defend myself if I know I'm wronged. >>
I have no chip on my shoulder but you sound like a sore loser.
Does anyone know whose coin is on the ANA's site? The WAV radio on that page gives a great gistory of the series, and estimates a gem would sell for $500,000 (in 2002). So this 2004 price for an NGC 66 sounds like a bargain (gulp).
Interesting discussion about a pair of phenomenal coins. If you filter out the bickering and negativity, there is a lot of wisdom in this thread! Congrats to Laura for buying a really cool coin, and congrats to jpkinla for assembling such a fine set. To me, it does not matter one bit whose is first or second--I am quite impressed with both coins.
First of all show me where I DIMINISHED the NGC coin. ......... If it is indeed the best and only MS66, why wouldnt it be in a PCGS holder?
Asked and answered in the same paragraph! Don't you agree the second sentence is laden with negative connotation? Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but it is indeed how it reads.
It's interesting to note Heritage's auction description from 2000 [my bolds]:
While all known 1933 eagles are Uncirculated, most specimens display heavily abraded surfaces. In stark contrast, the present example boasts frosty, essentially mark-free features that are indicative of the Gem level.
You are right Bruce. And I respect your fairness. May I suggest that you get all of your traded dollars crossed into NGC holders?? They would still be the best!
I'm not sure who is most qualified to render an unbiased opiion of the merits of these coins, but it clearly isn't the owner of either of them regardless of their experience or how many years they have been at this.
I personally believe the MS66 example would be in a PCGS holder if it could be. Maybe it will be, soon, but it isn't now.
First off I understand a little more about not competing at auction and attempting to aquire after, that's fine. I don't see anyone who truly wanted the coin not having time to bid on it but rather offering 25,000 the next day. Takes the same amount of time.
Secondly In an uptrend market we can ignore the 15% because it will be run over in the appreciation but in a normal market like 1990 through 1999 if a coin got sold three times and each time 15% got taken then it would be hard to say no one would notice. MY other point being that if the coin was truly as desirable and noticable as is stated then it needed no hype before auction, certainly not one that cost 90K(ok maybeit was less), Instead the word of its availability would have gotten out to those who were interested and a bidding war would have commenced. I'm sure that those who offered Laura the quick profit would have heard about it and the owner would have saved the commission and made the extra 25,000 flip Laura could pocket. Obviously by the comments here I could deduce that there were others willing to pay MORE for the coin and . that the seller did NOT get maximum price from the auction and paid a big commission on top of it. Please justify this auction commission when the guy could have called 10 of the biggest dealers in the country and gotten 750+ instead of 675. Or are we now gonna hear that they would pay Legend that but not that much to the original owner.
Third, My point on the 31_S cent was justa jest not on the on the price of the coin NOW but on what the 40 buck tag would have bought in 1933. Trying to stimulate a little thought that got lost in the "who's got the better dog" dialog
Four: The coin stands on its own NGC or PCGS doesn't matter. If NGC put it in a 64 holder then they could say that NGC was the "better" service since around here tighter means better.
Last , I think, I want to settle this whole thing, If both parties would send me their coin I will make a final decision.
<< <i>Raw the coin would have sold for the same money. Why can't people here understand that? >>
Because they are slaves to the grading services. Ultimately, the slab is meaningless if all who bid on a coin are KNOWLEDGABLE about the series and how to price it.
I know what's next. Heritage and PCGS will talk about the sale price of this coin. Heritage will meet with PCGS, and will promise to share the profits after the sale if PCGS will grade another one 66. You will see a ms66 from PCGS soon...
What I find amazing about all this is that I NEVER said my coin was better! Clearly the Stacks coin is a MS66 because NGC says it is and mine is a MS65 because PCGS thinks so. Anything beyond that is opinion only.
Who I am and for whom I work is akin to Israel having nukes. However, I infer from your statement that you question my objectivity or accuracy. If so, JB, please elaborate.
As for your being even-handed, well, I'm sure Arafat really wants what's good for his people!
<< <i>It's stupid of Laura to take such an attitude in public - even the limited public that these forums represent. It's equally stupid for collectors to make decisions, or put forth comments about relative quality, off of images - or holders.
Most of us don't collect gold, let alone $10 Indians. We have no idea regarding the grading nuances of these coins. Even jpkinla has only been at this for less than a year [fantastic job in such a short time, by the way!] and therefore hasn't had the necessary time to gain the experience necessary to make definitive assertions regarding relative quality. He's relying upon the 'selling patter' of a dealer ... granted a dealer that just about aced the grading test, but a dealer nonetheless. Comments such as that received really need to be taken with a large grain of salt. [did I tell you about the time a dealer told me he had a coin in that was a 'lock 64, shot 65'? When it came back 65, his story changed to 'it was a lock 65, shot 66'! Yeah, right. ]
Laura has seen both coins in hand, has been doing $10 Indians for decades, is well aware of the stature of both coins in the dealer community, and is quite rightly put off by many of the comments made in this thread. However, that does NOT excuse the beechy attitude.
The coin in question is a great coin. Two who have held it in their hand say the grade is right. Those who haven't seen it say it's not right until it crosses. That's B.S. - great coins don't have to cross to be great. I prefer PCGS, but I recognize that many times the finest coin resides in NGC plastic.... for a time. Everything is transient in this hobby of ours. >>
Bruce.... that is one of the fairest least biased opinions I have ever seen made on this forum....My hat's off to you!
I chuckle at the idea that for a coin to be nice for the grade it has to be in a PCGS holder. What a crock. Even more comical is that Joe Seller can solicit the 10 biggest dealers in the country and get the same price (or more) he would at auction....and save the "juice." What a crock! In reality this does not happen very often.
Had the seller of the NGC66 $10 Indian offered that to individual dealers, they would have likely asked him to quote a price. If the dealer quoted they most likely would have low-balled to some extent. Does anyone here think that if that coin were offered to any major dealer prior to the sale for $700K that it would have sold? I don't. I think it takes the auction environment to pull out all the stops and bring out heated competition...and my pockets are deeper than yours. Everyone wants to be "winner" and auctions are one place you always can win.....until it comes time to sell the coin. For every auction coin that becomes a winner for the buyer, you probably have at least as many that become losers for the new owners.
There's something to be said for bidding at auction knowing Major Dealer A or B is right in the thick of it with you. When you stick your neck out all alone on the bourse floor, you usually don't get that kind of backup unless you walk a client's coin around the floor. The auction floor is often the ultimate decision-maker of a coin's quality. Dealers stretch to their limits for the right coins at auctions...but not very often on the bourse where they are looking to score quick.
If there is a translator in the house, would he please help Villageboy make a point. Frankly I don't want to speak to underlings. I prefer Bruce and Laura.
By the way, using Israel and Arafat as analogies is akin to using Little Black Sambo and Buckwheat. You ought to be a little more thoughtful in your composition.
Never know who you are speaking to on these boards and you may offend someone Jewish...oh YOU DID!
Yes, me using just dollar figures may seem flawed to judge the BEST. But is it? Don't use an analogy that is unrealistic. If a 1933 eagle goes for $2,000,000, OBVIOUSLY IT MUST BLOW AWAY ANY OF THE OTHERS. SO IT WOULD be the BEST. ???
1804 silver dollars have gone from $1,000,000 to over $4,000,000. Wouldnt it be safe to say the $4 mil 1804 (Childs) is the best (available), since none of the others have come close in price range??? A theory with flaws, anyone can argue, but I just have to say... PROVE IT WITH PRICE!!!
I bet there isn't another 1933 $10 that will sell for anything close to that one. SHOW ME!!!
Roadrunner, I agree totally. Life shouldnt be PCGS for coins. We should NOT have a monopolistic grading service. For fair play, like in business, we really need THREE top reputable services. I mean, come on, David Hall was just a coin dealer like many of you at one time. Turned grading into a RACKET.
Laura's 1870-s Half dime is in an NGC holder. look at the PCGS price guides, and it doesnt even acknowledge the 1870-s exists!!! BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GRADED IT! (boo, hoo).
I guarantee that if you had called the top 10 dealers before hand, NO WAY WOULD ANY of them offered $625,000 for it!!! But if they knew what someone else was willing to pay, they still wouldnt believe it, or shy away. Well then we have the auction! Stirs up ego's, price jumping higher than expected better than any other avenue. I once sold a buffalo nickel for 50% MORE than what I thought I would get through auction! heritage told me to relax, and I even didnt bother with a reserve. Thought it would sell for less than I paid. Auction made it jump so high.
Your little rant about being Jewish -- while I'm sure is true -- is nothing more than a cover (or deflection) for your own ridiculous comment to me on here. My point about Israel's nuke capability pertains to the widespread belief that they have 'em, yet won't own up to it. (The metaphor being that many around here think I'm trying to keep secret that I work for Legend, when it's no secret when a very large %-age of the membership already know and say "hi" to me at shows.)
And, my comment about Arafat is a sarcastic metaphor about your claim to being even-handed in this thread. That's as much bull as Arafat's claim to being good for his people.
As for your taking offense, well that's a head-scratcher for me since I made no racist remarks. Not against Israelis, Jews, Palestine nor Palestinians. My comments were against you, your comment to me (in an earlier post) and even against Arafat. (If I were to endeavor to make a real political comment re the Mid East situation, it would be in favor of the Israelis and certainly against Arafat. Being Jewish, I think you would not mind that sentiment too much.)
And, next time, I will try to speak at a level more in tune to your intellectual capacity. I'll try to use simple words and little to no subtext.
+1 to this thread. Oh, yeah, let's talk about coins again. How much do you think a '33 Saint will be worth if the Smithsonian were able and willing to release one to the public?
Sorry, Russ, but like you, EVP and SaintGuru are both message board "friends" of mine, and I do not like to see my friends squabble over what amounts to nothing. Guys, please consider not pursuing this conflict.
'm not sure why some assume that half or more of thier profits in a coin should automatically be lost to a company that printed a fancy catalog. I agree that there was probably some share with the seller. Otherwise I'd find it hard to believe that with coins of this nature that word of its availability would not spread fast to those who collect this type of item. As far as dealers earning thier fees, that is not an issue here. A huge fee for printing a catalog and slamming a hammer is. I don't know what business you're in but if you don't question fees and look for the best options to market product you won't be in business long. Blindly paying a going rate because" that's the way it is" will allow it to continue "the way it is" and all the cream in the deal will continue to get sucked off the top by the auction house. Travers wrote, Auctions are a good deal.........for the auction company.
If I were a buyer or seller in the caliber of this coin, I would be willing to pay the fees simply for the ability to remain anonymous. I certainly would not want to take out full page adds advertising my interest in buying or selling such a high value coin. You would be inviting too much riff raff and trouble to do so. Don't believe me? Take out an ad in coin world saying "I have $625,000 in ready cash ...call me" and see how much fun you have.
If you have to have a coin like this in a certain services holder-YOU SHOULD NOT BE BUYING COINS!
The flip side of this is that if you have average coins (i.e. "product" or "stuff"), far better for that coin to be in a PCGS holder. In all likelihood it will bring a touch more, and be far easier to move. As much as I hate to admit it, NGC coins need to be solid or PQ for the grade to command attention. If you haven't tried selling lower end NGC coins, you ought to give it a whirl for your own "market" education. Fact of the matter is, it is tougher to sell identical NGC coins. One only has to look at the inventory of major dealers on this forum to see the higher % of PCGS coins. They stock what sells and turns over more quickly. I know I'm much more apt to buy PCGS coins because of that liquidity factor. It has nothing to do with being able to grade. How many major dealers brag that they only stock "NGC" certified coins? My own collection is around 80% NGC....but if I could snap my fingers and turn them into PCGS coins, I would.
Lloyd, the sale of my 1867-s quarter (NGC) highlights the usefullness of an auction venue. That coin brought 50% more than I thought it would. Had I offered that for sale I would have underpriced it by a lot. My reserve was less than half of the PR!
One only has to look at the inventory of major dealers on this forum to see the higher % of PCGS coins. They stock what sells and turns over more quickly.
My inventory is probably 70% PCGS, but it has nothing to do with a preference based on "what sells".
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, are you sure that subconsciously you are not favoring PCGS coins? You have to admit that if a pair of identical coins are offered to you at the same price, and you can only buy one, which one is it going to be??? Would you also say that at some point in time you may have 70% NGC coins in stock? If not, I'd have to ask why not? If this were purely random, most dealer's inventory's should run about 50/50 PCGS and NGC. At 70% or higher that looks suspiciously like a predilection to me, especially considering that in the over $1000 category, NGC coins "appear" to outnumber PCGS in the market place.
I watched 2 different major retailers proclaim NGC coins as good as PCGS (basically they are...but....) and then started increasing their % of NGC coins. Guess what coins sat the longest? Guess how long it took for them to start whittling back down the NGC coins? This was the market talking. It's no coincidence to me that they carry mostly PCGS coins again.
Brian - It's not about bias. It's about the coins. I don't hold coins for retail sale unless I believe in the grade and the value. (Everything else gets wholesaled or auctioned, quickly.) The fact that 70% of my retail inventory is in PCGS holders is simply a function of the fact that it's easier to find PCGS coins I like. But the 30% in NGC holders are every bit as good as the 70% in PCGS holders.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
OK. So you are basically saying PCGS grades closer to your likes than NGC. I think we could infer from that on the whole PCGS seems to grade more conservatively in the areas you seek? Or in other words, nice NGC coins are in shorter supply than nice PCGS coins in the areas you buy coins from.
So you are basically saying PCGS grades closer to your likes than NGC. I think we could infer from that on the whole PCGS seems to grade more conservatively in the areas you seek?
Brian - You should already know my answer, but I'll play along.
1. No, I don't prefer one grading standard over the other. I couldn't care less what standard anyone else uses.
2. In general, yes, PCGS grades a little more conservatively than NGC. However, that changes from day to day and coin to coin. That's because grading is subjective and graders are human. So it's always best to keep your eyes and mind open and just buy the best coins you can find for your money, regardless of the slabs in which the coins reside.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sorry Andy, but this thread moved in the direction that seemed to state that NGC is every bit as good as PCGS. And I wanted to see who of the responders was on which side. With all the flip-flopping spreading from the Open Forum I wanted to make sure no one was tainted.
I do agree that PCGS has graded somewhat more conservatively than PCGS over the past several years. I think that the % of PCGS coins in top inventories bears this out. Another point of contention: if one was allowed to get first cracks at coins returning from PCGS or NGC, and could buy them at the listed grades at CDN bid, which service would you pick. (you don't know what the coins are nor the grades). I know you and I would take PCGS, most others probably would too.
Comments
Another thing, coynclecter. That coin going to auction I THINK realized WAY more than it would of if just "placed in an add". For it to have bid that high, there HAS TO BE AT LEAST TWO BIDDERS. Not just one person making an offer. Some day, you'll get it.
<< <i>I think NGC got the grade correct, not PCGS. >>
-Have you seen the coin?
I think you are trying to be funny, but the truth is, I lived in LA for 6 years, and the 2000 Long Beach show from heritage was MY FIRST BIG AUCTION I EVER ATTENDED!!! I thought the Indian Eagle's were (and still are to me) the prettiest coins, with that strikingly strong eagle, and liberty indian head dress!!! I DID see it, and I don't remember much except that I knew I held in my hand back then, one of my dream coins. I thought, with a glass even, it was PERFECT. I mean, I have seen probably 4 live, and many others in pictures. Heck, the Richmond Collection sold a MS64 NGC for $276,000, and I thought (from pictures) it was chopped up with an ax.
I'd pay a million for that coin, if I had the extra laying around.
Though the prices often seem high at first coming out of auctions, they often turn out to be bargains. Again, it's why so many dealers shop there. I always find it interesting which major players do not bid at auction (Legend is not in that group). They either claim the prices are always too high or they can buy it elsewhere and still sell it cheaper. Right! Unfortunately the real answer also includes the fact that some of those other dealers cannot compete at those levels without losing their shirts, and that they cannot grade quite good enough to survive. Hence they rely on getting coins far cheaper from sacrificial sellers who don't know any better.
roadrunner
Don't put too much weight into it!!! Back then, I wasn't even thinking of coin grades as that big of a deal. (Like today). I just simply recall that being the first one I had ever seen, and every specimen AFTER it, nicked up pretty good...
Who would want 80 rolls of a 1931-s penny???
You said the seller may not have had 50 bidders/buyers interested. ALL HE NEEDS IS TWO!!! Maybe the seller expected $500,000 when he put it up for sale!! Wouldn't you think he would GLADLY pay and thank the middleman auction in this case???
I'm working on you, Coynclecter!!!
Whether you agree or disagree with my OPINION about any coin I am still entitled to my opinion. I stated specifically I had not seen the Stack's 1933 coin and that I was relying on the photos to draw my conclusion. Furthermore I said I felt the coin was worth the money paid and said nothing negative about your coin other than it was probably a PCGS MS65 upgrade (evidently it is). I also stated that although I was not a grader, I believed (and have been told) my coin is a shot MS66 (I am sure it has been tried maybe more than once even) and that it could be the finest known. I suspect Heritage would not let an upgrade opportunity just pass them by but this coin was brokered for a fee so they may not have tried it for that reason and not wanted to tie up that kind of money. Who knows?
BTW, Heritage took the photo of my 1933 $10 Indian not I. I do not believe you were EVER offered my coin as you would definitely have bought it at the price I bought it for or even less maybe if you were lucky. Perhaps it was a different MS65 coin you were offered as there was more than one 1933 recently available.
I just can't believe you took this out of proportion like you did. I am done ranting and raving now and will get back to enjoying my weekend.
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
<< <i>You know I contemplated long and hard about whether to post anything here again regarding this topic but what Laura at Legend sent me privately today was so unprofessional, rude and insulting that I have taken offense by it and was so shocked that I can't believe they are still in business with that demeanor. I am not posting it here (although I probably should) because I am used to taking abuse as I am a debt collector by trade and I take it all day long every day so have become numbed by it. But NOT from people I consider business professionals and certainly not from people I choose to do business with. I have a multi-million dollar collection of 20th Century gold coins with some really nice and desirable coins and I am MUCH CLOSER TO SELLING than buying any more coins. I think you made a mistake today Laura and you owe me an apology!
Whether you agree or disagree with my OPINION about any coin I am still entitled to my opinion. I stated specifically I had not seen the Stack's 1933 coin and that I was relying on the photos to draw my conclusion. Furthermore I said I felt the coin was worth the money paid and said nothing negative about your coin other than it was probably a PCGS MS65 upgrade (evidently it is). I also stated that although I was not a grader, I believed (and have been told) my coin is a shot MS66 (I am sure it has been tried maybe more than once even) and that it could be the finest known. I suspect Heritage would not let an upgrade opportunity just pass them by but this coin was brokered for a fee so they may not have tried it for that reason and not wanted to tie up that kind of money. Who knows?
BTW, Heritage took the photo of my 1933 $10 Indian not I. I do not believe you were EVER offered my coin as you would definitely have bought it at the price I bought it for or even less maybe if you were lucky. Perhaps it was a different MS65 coin you were offered as there was more than one 1933 recently available.
I just can't believe you took this out of proportion like you did. I am done ranting and raving now and will get back to enjoying my weekend. >>
JP....
It would be unfortunate if you let a remark Laura made run you away from the forum, because you said not one thing wrong that I saw. Sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt around here.
<< <i>jpkinla, don't let the "Major blow hard" run you off. >>
heh...I second that one.
jom
<< <i>I accept being called names. I accept being rude and crude. I LOVE being called a blow hard by people with chips on their shoulders.
The fact is, things have been distorted here. I love it that jpkinla is crying wounded by me.
My last statement is: he doesn't think I was offered his coin? Well I WAS. I was offered it BEFORE Heritage was. I was offered it as partial trade for my 1913 Nickel. I was also offered (but couldn't agree on price) the Ultra High Relief.
I did PM him. And yes, I was nasty, but hey, I am angry. He didn't even have the courage to reply. He comes here and whines in public. Then calls me rude. If thats how he feels, YES, I AM!
All I can do is state my case. I CAN add even more facts if I have too. But regardless for what people think of me here, I have my limits of what I'll say-even if its in my defense. There are MORE facts, serious facts that I could say that would NOT make jpkinla happy.
So yet again I am made out to be the big evil b*tchy dealer. Its ok, because I will still answer every PM I get from any one who needs help. I will still be here-like it or not. I know the REAL facts and I can sleep at night. I felt a need to defend a major purchase. That is why I attacked.
I do want to make one thing clear, I am NOT knocking the quality of his coin. He has a PCGS MS65. Its a great coin. I am infuriated that he thinks its equal or better than mine-it is a KNOWN fact it is NOT.
So flame away at me. At this point is childish for me to let this thread go on. I do appologize to the public for insulting you for having this stuff posted, but you all know I will always defend myself if I know I'm wronged. >>
I have no chip on my shoulder but you sound like a sore loser.
FROM YOUR FIRST CIGARETTE, TO YOUR LAST DYIN' DAY"
Is this the THRILLA in MANILLA??
The RUMBLE in the JUNGLE??
Stay tuned sportsfans...and Musical sissies..!!
What is a "BEECHY" attitude? I don't have that in my insult guide??
<< <i>Bruce,
What is a "BEECHY" attitude? I don't have that in my insult guide??
It's how most of us feel here on the way to Boca Grande
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Asked and answered in the same paragraph!
It's interesting to note Heritage's auction description from 2000 [my bolds]:
While all known 1933 eagles are Uncirculated, most specimens display heavily abraded surfaces. In stark contrast, the present example boasts frosty, essentially mark-free features that are indicative of the Gem level.
I personally believe the MS66 example would be in a PCGS holder if it could be. Maybe it will be, soon, but it isn't now.
Nice to have an opportunity to banter
First off I understand a little more about not competing at auction and attempting to aquire after, that's fine. I don't see anyone who truly wanted the coin not having time to bid on it but rather offering 25,000 the next day. Takes the same amount of time.
Secondly In an uptrend market we can ignore the 15% because it will be run over in the appreciation but in a normal market like 1990 through 1999 if a coin got sold three times and each time 15% got taken then it would be hard to say no one would notice. MY other point being that if the coin was truly as desirable and noticable as is stated then it needed no hype before auction, certainly not one that cost 90K(ok maybeit was less), Instead the word of its availability would have gotten out to those who were interested and a bidding war would have commenced. I'm sure that those who offered Laura the quick profit would have heard about it and the owner would have saved the commission and made the extra 25,000 flip Laura could pocket. Obviously by the comments here I could deduce that there were others willing to pay MORE for the coin and . that the seller did NOT get maximum price from the auction and paid a big commission on top of it. Please justify this auction commission when the guy could have called 10 of the biggest dealers in the country and gotten 750+ instead of 675. Or are we now gonna hear that they would pay Legend that but not that much to the original owner.
Third, My point on the 31_S cent was justa jest not on the on the price of the coin NOW but on what the 40 buck tag would have bought in 1933. Trying to stimulate a little thought that got lost in the "who's got the better dog" dialog
Four: The coin stands on its own NGC or PCGS doesn't matter. If NGC put it in a 64 holder then they could say that NGC was the "better" service since around here tighter means better.
Last , I think, I want to settle this whole thing, If both parties would send me their coin I will make a final decision.
<< <i>Raw the coin would have sold for the same money. Why can't people here understand that? >>
Because they are slaves to the grading services. Ultimately, the slab is meaningless if all who bid on a coin are KNOWLEDGABLE about the series and how to price it.
jom
If I pay 2 million for the next one does that mean mine is the best?
who knows, we may see this particular coin in a pcgs ms66 soon, in all my years this would not surprise me.
.
They are both monster coins.
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Who I am and for whom I work is akin to Israel having nukes. However, I infer from your statement that you question my objectivity or accuracy. If so, JB, please elaborate.
As for your being even-handed, well, I'm sure Arafat really wants what's good for his people!
(That's my one little tit for your implied tat.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>It's stupid of Laura to take such an attitude in public - even the limited public that these forums represent. It's equally stupid for collectors to make decisions, or put forth comments about relative quality, off of images - or holders.
Most of us don't collect gold, let alone $10 Indians. We have no idea regarding the grading nuances of these coins. Even jpkinla has only been at this for less than a year [fantastic job in such a short time, by the way!] and therefore hasn't had the necessary time to gain the experience necessary to make definitive assertions regarding relative quality. He's relying upon the 'selling patter' of a dealer ... granted a dealer that just about aced the grading test, but a dealer nonetheless. Comments such as that received really need to be taken with a large grain of salt. [did I tell you about the time a dealer told me he had a coin in that was a 'lock 64, shot 65'? When it came back 65, his story changed to 'it was a lock 65, shot 66'! Yeah, right.
Laura has seen both coins in hand, has been doing $10 Indians for decades, is well aware of the stature of both coins in the dealer community, and is quite rightly put off by many of the comments made in this thread. However, that does NOT excuse the beechy attitude.
The coin in question is a great coin. Two who have held it in their hand say the grade is right. Those who haven't seen it say it's not right until it crosses. That's B.S. - great coins don't have to cross to be great. I prefer PCGS, but I recognize that many times the finest coin resides in NGC plastic.... for a time. Everything is transient in this hobby of ours. >>
Bruce.... that is one of the fairest least biased opinions I have ever seen made on this forum....My hat's off to you!
What a crock! In reality this does not happen very often.
Had the seller of the NGC66 $10 Indian offered that to individual dealers, they would have likely asked him to quote a price. If the dealer quoted they most likely would have low-balled to some extent. Does anyone here think that if that coin were offered to any major dealer prior to the sale for $700K that it would have sold? I don't. I think it takes the auction environment to pull out all the stops and bring out heated competition...and my pockets are deeper than yours. Everyone wants to be "winner" and auctions are one place you always can win.....until it comes time to sell the coin. For every auction coin that becomes a winner for the buyer, you probably have at least as many that become losers for the new owners.
There's something to be said for bidding at auction knowing Major Dealer A or B is right in the thick of it with you. When you stick your neck out all alone on the bourse floor, you usually don't get that kind of backup unless you walk a client's coin around the floor. The auction floor is often the ultimate decision-maker of a coin's quality.
Dealers stretch to their limits for the right coins at auctions...but not very often on the bourse where they are looking to score quick.
roadrunner
By the way, using Israel and Arafat as analogies is akin to using Little Black Sambo and Buckwheat. You ought to be a little more thoughtful in your composition.
Never know who you are speaking to on these boards and you may offend someone Jewish...oh YOU DID!
Yes, me using just dollar figures may seem flawed to judge the BEST. But is it? Don't use an analogy that is unrealistic. If a 1933 eagle goes for $2,000,000, OBVIOUSLY IT MUST BLOW AWAY ANY OF THE OTHERS. SO IT WOULD be the BEST. ???
1804 silver dollars have gone from $1,000,000 to over $4,000,000. Wouldnt it be safe to say the $4 mil 1804 (Childs) is the best (available), since none of the others have come close in price range??? A theory with flaws, anyone can argue, but I just have to say... PROVE IT WITH PRICE!!!
I bet there isn't another 1933 $10 that will sell for anything close to that one. SHOW ME!!!
Laura's 1870-s Half dime is in an NGC holder. look at the PCGS price guides, and it doesnt even acknowledge the 1870-s exists!!! BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GRADED IT! (boo, hoo).
Just my opinion....
I guarantee that if you had called the top 10 dealers before hand, NO WAY WOULD ANY of them offered $625,000 for it!!! But if they knew what someone else was willing to pay, they still wouldnt believe it, or shy away. Well then we have the auction! Stirs up ego's, price jumping higher than expected better than any other avenue. I once sold a buffalo nickel for 50% MORE than what I thought I would get through auction! heritage told me to relax, and I even didnt bother with a reserve. Thought it would sell for less than I paid. Auction made it jump so high.
Your little rant about being Jewish -- while I'm sure is true -- is nothing more than a cover (or deflection) for your own ridiculous comment to me on here. My point about Israel's nuke capability pertains to the widespread belief that they have 'em, yet won't own up to it. (The metaphor being that many around here think I'm trying to keep secret that I work for Legend, when it's no secret when a very large %-age of the membership already know and say "hi" to me at shows.)
And, my comment about Arafat is a sarcastic metaphor about your claim to being even-handed in this thread. That's as much bull as Arafat's claim to being good for his people.
As for your taking offense, well that's a head-scratcher for me since I made no racist remarks. Not against Israelis, Jews, Palestine nor Palestinians. My comments were against you, your comment to me (in an earlier post) and even against Arafat. (If I were to endeavor to make a real political comment re the Mid East situation, it would be in favor of the Israelis and certainly against Arafat. Being Jewish, I think you would not mind that sentiment too much.)
And, next time, I will try to speak at a level more in tune to your intellectual capacity. I'll try to use simple words and little to no subtext.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Bwahuahahahahaha!!!
Nice attitude. Taking lessons on arrogance? BTW, what do you do?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Russ, NCNE
Your new avatar is throwing me for a loop.
+1 to this thread. Oh, yeah, let's talk about coins again. How much do you think a '33 Saint will be worth if the Smithsonian were able and willing to release one to the public?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
And, on that note, it's off to do something else for a while!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
If I were a buyer or seller in the caliber of this coin, I would be willing to pay the fees simply for the ability to remain anonymous. I certainly would not want to take out full page adds advertising my interest in buying or selling such a high value coin. You would be inviting too much riff raff and trouble to do so. Don't believe me? Take out an ad in coin world saying "I have $625,000 in ready cash ...call me" and see how much fun you have.
The flip side of this is that if you have average coins (i.e. "product" or "stuff"), far better for that coin to be in a PCGS holder. In all likelihood it will bring a touch more, and be far easier to move. As much as I hate to admit it, NGC coins need to be solid or PQ for the grade to command attention. If you haven't tried selling lower end NGC coins, you ought to give it a whirl for your own "market" education. Fact of the matter is, it is tougher to sell identical NGC coins. One only has to look at the inventory of major dealers on this forum to see the higher % of PCGS coins. They stock what sells and turns over more quickly. I know I'm much more apt to buy PCGS coins because of that liquidity factor. It has nothing to do with being able to grade. How many major dealers brag that they only stock "NGC" certified coins? My own collection is around 80% NGC....but if I could snap my fingers and turn them into PCGS coins, I would.
Lloyd, the sale of my 1867-s quarter (NGC) highlights the usefullness of an auction venue. That coin brought 50% more than I thought it would. Had I offered that for sale I would have underpriced it by a lot. My reserve was less than half of the PR!
roadrunner
My inventory is probably 70% PCGS, but it has nothing to do with a preference based on "what sells".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I watched 2 different major retailers proclaim NGC coins as good as PCGS (basically they are...but....) and then started increasing their % of NGC coins. Guess what coins sat the longest? Guess how long it took for them to start whittling back down the NGC coins?
This was the market talking. It's no coincidence to me that they carry mostly PCGS coins again.
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
roadrunner
Brian - You should already know my answer, but I'll play along.
1. No, I don't prefer one grading standard over the other. I couldn't care less what standard anyone else uses.
2. In general, yes, PCGS grades a little more conservatively than NGC. However, that changes from day to day and coin to coin. That's because grading is subjective and graders are human. So it's always best to keep your eyes and mind open and just buy the best coins you can find for your money, regardless of the slabs in which the coins reside.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I do agree that PCGS has graded somewhat more conservatively than PCGS over the past several years. I think that the % of PCGS coins in top inventories bears this out. Another point of contention:
if one was allowed to get first cracks at coins returning from PCGS or NGC, and could buy them at the listed grades at CDN bid, which service would you pick. (you don't know what the coins are nor the grades). I know you and I would take PCGS, most others probably would too.
roadrunner
<< <i>He has no choice to spank me softly >>
Russ, NCNE