George III Death medal

cosmicdebris · October 13, 2004 9:39AM

Should I? Or Should I not?

I have a chance to buy the below "Death Of George III" Medal. It comes from Matthew Boulton's personal Collection.

hookedoncoins · October 13, 2004 9:43AM

If the price is reasonable, I would go for it. Looks like a very nice piece.

boz · October 13, 2004 9:44AM

Definitely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

spoon · October 13, 2004 9:47AM

Even if the price is unreasonable!!

Awesome!

Aethelred · October 13, 2004 9:50AM

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!

cosmicdebris · October 13, 2004 9:51AM

<<OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!! >>

I'll take that as a yes

lordmarcovan · October 13, 2004 9:53AM

Obviously in the original shell. What's the paper? The envelope the shell was in? Boulton's handwriting, perhaps?

A most droolworthy item.

ColinCMR · October 13, 2004 9:55AM

Beauty! Let us know when you decide!

python · October 13, 2004 9:58AM

I can't believe you even have to think about it.

Buy it!!

cosmicdebris · October 13, 2004 10:02AM

One other thing I should note.

This image is not the exact medal being offered. The medal pictured is from Watt's collection. There is not yet a picture of the Boulton example. However, I have been assured the Boulton example is a great specimen too.

goldrush00013 · October 13, 2004 10:04AM

That's awesome!!!!!

Sorry but I didn't know who Matthew Boulton was. So I did a search on him and got this Matthew Boulton for others who don't know Unless I'm the only one?

cosmicdebris · October 13, 2004 10:08AM

John you got the right Matthew Boulton. Both him and James Watt had an extensive collection of coins. medals and tokens they produced. Many were kept in the metal shells which preserved them in the same condition from the day they were minted.

P.S. Token in my sig line is from Boulton too.

Aethelred · October 13, 2004 10:09AM

<< <i><<OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!! >>

I'll take that as a yes

>>

Friggin well buy it first and ask us about it later!!!! What are you waiting for? ORDER IT!!!!!

farthing · October 13, 2004 10:27AM

OMGY!

laurentyvan · October 13, 2004 11:42AM

My heart skipped six beats when I saw the photo with the accompanying documentation and case... but then read your later post.

It's an opportunity which may not come again. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes-such a special piece but how special is the price?

I hope you're not in an agony of indecision.

wildjag · October 13, 2004 12:09PM

Definitely buy it

CoinAddict · October 13, 2004 12:23PM

If you can afford it you might as well pick it up.

MacCrimmon · October 13, 2004 12:34PM

If you don't buy it, we'll hunt you down........

.....and no, it can't be slabbed!!!!

cosmicdebris · October 13, 2004 6:10PM

Update on the piece being offered not the one pictures. It comes with only half the shell and no paper wrapper. It is, however, still a Boulton piece and almost as nice as the Watt piece pictured.

jonesy · October 13, 2004 6:42PM

Go fer it!!!

theboz11 · October 13, 2004 6:59PM

Knock a few quid off for being incomplete ,Then buy it. Or at least tell us where we can buy it

AuldFartte · October 13, 2004 10:50PM

If you don't, give us a shot at it !!!

elverno · October 14, 2004 2:32AM

A beautiful example of British Historical Medals #991. BHM notes that the obverse was by Kuchler, an engraver who died 10 years before the king. Kuchler's dies were often used in this way after his death. The provenance and condition makes this piece valuable. Copper strikes are relatively common but of course only a few can come from the Boulton and Watts private collections. Also the metal cases are very scarce; more valuable than the medals they contain for most British medals of the Napoleonic period. There's no explanation I can find, other than an engraver in a hurry, for the reversed C's in the dates.

Go for it! (Or give me a chance!)

Conder101 · October 14, 2004 2:58AM

Buy it, or let me buy it! Beautiful medal, great pedigree, shame about the missing shell.

What really burns me is that a bunch of the Conder tokens for the Boulton and Watt collections got slabbed and the dealers submitting them just discarded the shells. Those close fitting metal shells (18th century Kointains!) were a work of art in their own right and had preserved those tokens for over 200 years. They were a part of the history of the tokens, and just casually tossed aside.

cosmicdebris · October 14, 2004 4:13AM

I too find it very disheartening that the slabbing of some of the Watt and Boulton collection lost so much. I really think the shells are part of the whole package. If I had bought any of the slabbed pieces and they still had the shells I would of coarse deslab them and put them back where they belong.

MacCrimmon · October 14, 2004 4:19AM

<< <i>What really burns me is that a bunch of the Conder tokens for the Boulton and Watt collections got slabbed and the dealers submitting them just discarded the shells. Those close fitting metal shells (18th century Kointains!) were a work of art in their own right and had preserved those tokens for over 200 years. They were a part of the history of the tokens, and just casually tossed aside. >>

Knowing that does more than "BURN ME"!!!

cosmicdebris · October 14, 2004 4:30AM

So anyone know where I can get half a shell?

Seriously I am having the medal sent out on approval to me and if I keep it, which I most likely will, I will need to find the other half. If any of you come across one please let me know.

JadeRareCoin · October 14, 2004 5:23AM

Bill, do NOT buy that medal. Let me take all of the risk and purchase it.

What a wonderful opportunity! Congratulations. I was also disgusted with the slabbing of the Watts coins. They went from historic works of art, to ugly chunks of plastic. Crack em out!

MacCrimmon · October 14, 2004 9:05AM

<< <i> So anyone know where I can get half a shell? >>

Contact Mr. Eureka. He may know where some shells reside as I believe he purchased some of the Watt material directly from the original Morton sale. Odds are you'll have to buy a whole shell though.....

Anyone know the going price for a shell? Actually, these things would be extraordinarily easy to manufacture in todays world. The only kicker would be the initial tooling, otherwise, it's an item that would cost maybe triple the materials even at low quantites.

Were these shells precisely fitted around the coin with no envelope, etc., or did they also have a wrapping of some kind? Conder101? Andy? Anyone?

cosmicdebris · October 14, 2004 9:13AM

If I were still an hourly employee and still working in the tool room I could whip up a modern version in less than an hour myself.

However, I want the real deal.

MadMarty · October 14, 2004 9:19AM

Go for it!!!

MrEureka · October 14, 2004 10:35AM

Contact Mr. Eureka. He may know where some shells reside as I believe he purchased some of the Watt material directly from the original Morton sale.

Sorry, I can't help. The only shells I have from that sale surround various coins.

cosmicdebris · October 14, 2004 6:22PM

<< surround various coins>>

Details MAN! We want details.

Conder101 · October 15, 2004 3:10AM

I'm not sure but I believe the shell is fitted to the coin, so a shell for a different coin may not fit and mismatched shells may not fit together. Like I said these shells were works of art in their own right.

cosmicdebris · October 15, 2004 4:17AM

Were they stamped out or turned on a lathe?

MacCrimmon · October 15, 2004 6:22AM

The shot of that inner shell looks to be turned on a lathe. I doubt they would have had stamping down at that point.......maybe a little research, eh?

cosmicdebris · October 15, 2004 6:25AM

I could take measurements and ask the local technical high school to turn one on a lathe for me.

Askari · October 15, 2004 12:11PM

So, are you going to start a Boulton collection to go with your Goetz?? It's a beauty for sure!

Conder101 · October 15, 2004 7:03PM

I kind of doubt they had to much in the way of stamp forming either. I would think that would have required he use of the power of the steam press which was just then coming into use for the striking of the coins themselves. Now I suppose that Boulton, since he had the presses and was experienced at the metalworking needed to create such small formed objects, could have developed the stamping techniques.

cosmicdebris · October 15, 2004 7:33PM

Plus Now that I think of it I have no clue as to how they would have held the piece to turn it on a lathe and do both sides with something that thin.

MacCrimmon · October 16, 2004 1:51AM

<< <i> Plus Now that I think of it I have no clue as to how they would have held the piece to turn it on a lathe and do both sides with something that thin. >>

Ah, but that begs the question, how did the pocket watch industry make the watch shells? Many were gold and thus more 'workable', but there were a fair amount of silver casings being made in England (and Europe) in the late 1700s.

Maybe they did have screw press forming dies designed by then (after all, they are fairly thin, so it wouldn't take a great deal of tonnage)....of course, with steam, they could really get serious...

cosmicdebris · October 16, 2004 3:09AM

When I finally have it in hand I can examine the shell more closely.

George III Death medal

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