The most comprehensive grading comparison test of PCGS vs NGC ever made!

relayer

The estate of Emanuel Trompeter was kind enough to pay for grading the same high-end coins both through PCGS and NGC.

I think the results are extremely interesting. I saw it from this post about an estate dispute.

Grade Number of Coins--PCGS Number of Coins--NGC
60 0 1
61 3 0
62 17 12
63 69 21
64 78 71
65 12 51
66 1 22
67 1 5
68 0 1
69 1 1
------- --------------------- --------------------
Total 182 185

kieferscoins

What year? All the same type of coins?

Cameron Kiefer

ziggy29

I saw that -- I breezed through that very long passage but did stop there for a moment. It certainly tells us there was a distinct difference in how they graded mint state gold 12 years ago.

But if it were really a "comprehensive" test, it would consist of more than just mint state gold, and at more than just one snapshot in time a dozen years ago.

kieferscoins

<< <i>But if it were really a "comprehensive" test, it would consist of more than just mint state gold, and at more than just one snapshot in time a dozen years ago. >>



I agree.

Cameron Kiefer

coinguy1

Gentlemen, the coins were Proof!!!!!!, not mint state.

Unless they were graded by NGC and PCGS during the same time period, I don't think the comparisons mean much. By the way, I (believe I) saw most of them when I worked for NGC and many of them were spectacular.

relayer

Ok, so the estate of Emanuel Trompeter didn't conduct a grading comparison for our benefit.

Howerver, Ira Goldberg of Superior submitted the same coins (or 95% the same coins) to both PCGS and then to NGC.

If you want the details you have to read the other post.

The point is almost 200 of the SAME coins were graded by both PCGS and NGC within 1 month of each other (in 1991) - do you know of any other such results?

Edited - as Mark said, these were all proofs. But it's a large number of the same coins graded by both PCGS and NGC

kieferscoins

<< <i>The point is almost 200 of the SAME coins were graded by both PCGS and NGC within 1 month of each other (in 1991) - do you know of any other such results? >>



There are no other results close to this but the info is outdated. I wish we had one within the last year and then we could have seen a much more up to date result.

We don't use drunk driving stats from 1991 and the same applies with coin grading results. Its neat seeing the difference back then but doesn't help us now.

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

It's interesting to see the distribution of the grades below Gem compared to above Gem.

Russ, NCNE

relayer

Statistics is a branch of mathematics that allows us to make inferences about the whole from a sample.

Since it is not possible for PCGS and NGC to each grade every coin, a controlled sample can still provide information. Since this sample only used proof coins, the results can only be for proofs.

Statistics can also be used to present your case in a better light.

For example, there are three “measures of central tendency” or what people call an “average”

1) Mean – The sum of all scores divided by the number of samples
2) Median – The score in the middle
3) Mode – This is the most frequently occurring score

The mean grade at PCGS is 63.50 and NGC 64.38
The median grade at PCGS is 64 and NGC 64
The mode grade at PCGS is 64 and NGC 64

So, if you wanted to say NGC is almost a point over PCGS, you could cite the mean.
If you wanted to say PCGS and NGC grade the same you could cite the median or mode.

There are other things like standard deviations, that let you zoom in on where the differences are, but PCGS could use this to advertise that NGC over-grades by almost 1 point, and NGC could advertise they grade the same as PCGS – and both would be correct.

relayer

<< <i>It's interesting to see the distribution of the grades below Gem compared to above Gem. >>



Look what happens when the NGC grades get shifted up one column (so a PCGS 60 compares to a NGC 61, etc.)

Grade PCGS NGC
60 0 0
61 3 12
62 17 21
63 69 71
64 78 51
65 12 22
66 1 5
67 1 1
68 0 1
69 1

Longacre

Relayer:

Now I know why I got a "C" in statistics in college (and hated every minute of it)

coinguy1

For those who don't already know, Mr. Trompeter supposedly applied Freon (or something similar) to his coins, as a way of preserving them.

And, as I recall, most of them had a very distinctive look as a result. Perhaps NGC liked that look better than PCGS did or maybe the grading differences were the result of something else.

coynclecter

The relevance of this is questionable at this point. Most PCGS coins from 1991 have been upgraded (if possible) and I don't know if many of the NGC coins have. PCGS standards have relaxed. My guess is that the results would be considerably different if attempted at this time.

relayer

I guess we'll just have to wait for the next rich collector to die off so his wife, mistress and kids can fight over the estate.

michael

tromp coins where all proofs


also he dipped all his coins in tolyunie or however you spell it

this gave the coins a distinctive look to them

also most importantly sight seen in person buy the coin not the holder


michael

khayse

> and NGC could advertise they grade the same as PCGS – and both would be correct.
Correct? I suppose if they were politicians. But anyone with an 8th grade education would laugh at them for their conclusions.

Very interesting.

-KHayse

sliderider

I posted this in the other thread, but I'll post it again here for those that missed it.


How incredibly stupid of the decedent to include the coins in his will in the first place. If I were close to death, I'd give the key to my deposit box or the combination to my safe to my heirs and tell them to clean me out and either sell or hide everything before the taxman cometh.

coinguy1

<< <i>How incredibly stupid of the decedent to include the coins in his will in the first place. If I were close to death, I'd give the key to my deposit box or the combination to my safe to my heirs and tell them to clean me out and either sell or hide everything before the taxman cometh. >>

Sliderider, it sounds as if you are confusing "stupid" with "honest". And, being dishonest doesn't make one smart.

ziggy29

<< <i>How incredibly stupid of the decedent to include the coins in his will in the first place. If I were close to death, I'd give the key to my deposit box or the combination to my safe to my heirs and tell them to clean me out and either sell or hide everything before the taxman cometh. >>

Hope they have a safe deposit box in prison where you can visit those coins after being convicted of tax evasion.

RYK

How incredibly stupid of the decedent to include the coins in his will in the first place. If I were close to death, I'd give the key to my deposit box or the combination to my safe to my heirs and tell them to clean me out and either sell or hide everything before the taxman cometh.

How incredibly stupid to post something like that on a coin message board. Not only does it make you look like a tax cheat, it draws a red flag to the rest of us collectors. If you are going to play loose with the IRS, it is best not to broadcast your intentions publicly. And finally, do not assume that the rest of us are cheaters.

Fairlaneman

Some statements that are made around this place are sad.

Agreement about waste within the use of tax dollars is probably 100% but without taxes we could have living conditions like some 3rd world countries. People that have not seen these conditions need to be put on a boat for a look see immediately. Certainly the attitude would change fairly rapidly after the boat landed.

Ken

Conder101

<< <i> but without taxes we could have living conditions like some 3rd world countries. People that have not seen these conditions need to be put on a boat for a look see immediately. Certainly the attitude would change fairly rapidly after the boat landed. >>


So the living conditions in third world countries would improve if their govenments taxed their citizen at a higher rate?