Some authentic bag toned Morgans

K6AZ

With all the debate over AT and NT coins, I thought I would post some pictures of some Morgans that do have natural bag toning. These coins all have a certain characteristic of natural bag toning, which I will explain later.

kyleknap

All of those are definitely NT pieces. Good examples and beautiful coins Eric!

Kyle

K6AZ

Thanks Kyle. I am looking to see if anyone can see what all these coins have in common. What they have in common is something that tells you these are NT coins that came out of a bag. If no one gets it, I'll explain later.

Vet

Im going to say there all cresent tonned. Very nice

ddbird

All follow the same color pattern...

btw I know I have said this before but that 85 cc is the most attractive coin I have seen in a while. I would hold onto that forever!

JRH

A specific color sequence.

K6AZ

<< <i>All follow the same color pattern... >>



Bingo! There was a progression of colors when these coins toned in the bag. The first sign of toning is a golden color. As the toning spreads, this initial color separates the untoned portion of the coin from the deeper colors. This band can range from light gold, to a golden brown, to a brownish orange. The band will be very well defined on the sharp crescents, but more subtle on the loose crescents or simply bag toned coins. Look closely at each one of these coins and you will see it.

TonedCoinTrader

Nice group of Natural Bag Material sulfer outgas Toned Cresent's Eric

Sandhawk

Hey Eric,

I really like that first crescent toner

K6AZ

<< <i>Nice group of Natural Bag Material sulfer outgas Toned Cresent's Eric >>



Yeah, and I'm sure one looks very familiar!

K6AZ

<< <i>Hey Eric,

I really like that first crescent toner >>



I thought you might!

mrearlygold

<< <i>Hey Eric,

I really like that first crescent toner >>






Ditto

Tom

ER

mmmmhh, crescent toners

K6AZ

Thanks to a Braddick post about a coin he just bought, we have another perfect example of the band between the toned and untoned areas of the coin:

K6AZ

And here is another perfect example of a coin that Bajjerfan bought and posted in another thread. There is a very small area on the left side of the reverse that is untoned, near UNITED. As you work your way to the right, you get a gold color which deepens and then into the colors of the rainbow.

BigE

I like the stars obverse brilliant and colored DDO look----------------------BigE

BigE

What am I saying? look at the obv stars on the 82------------------------BigE

K6AZ

<< <i>What am I saying? look at the obv stars on the 82------------------------BigE >>



Are you speaking of the shadowing effect? A lot of bag toned coins will show this, but there are some that don't. When you do see it, you can be virtually certain the coin is NT.

BigE

Why do you think I brought it up Eric, Quit telling me crap I already know------BigE

CarlWohlforth

I like the '87s. Thanks for the post.

K6AZ

<< <i>Why do you think I brought it up Eric, Quit telling me crap I already know------BigE >>



You may know it, and I may know it, but I suspect a lot of people don't know it. Remember, this isn't a bashing thread, it is an educational thread.

Sandhawk

Yeah, Some of us need an edumacation!

BigE

As Russ would say, "Hey doofuss, you think you are the only one who knows what a real coin is--------------------BigE

K6AZ

Well, from what I have seen in the last few days, there are many who don't. Now they do.

XpipedreamR

Thanks for the info!

TonedCoinTrader

<< <I>What am I saying? look at the obv stars on the 82------------------------BigE</I> >>


If you are talking about the area where it is untoned from the stars, it's because the metal is stretched while struck. The surface area is a different texture than the rest of the coin so it does not Tone the same nor as easy.

Scott

K6AZ

<< <i><< <I>What am I saying? look at the obv stars on the 82------------------------BigE</I> >>


If you are talking about the area where it is untoned from the stars, it's because the metal is stretched while struck. The surface area is a different texture than the rest of the coin so it does not Tone the same nor as easy.

Scott >>



Exactly. But when a coin is AT'ed, these areas do get "toned". So when you see the shadowing effect you can be pretty confident the coin is NT.

BigE

Exactly what I was saying!, thanks for posting these Eric--------------------------BigE

TonedCoinTrader

<<<Exactly. But when a coin is AT'ed, these areas do get "toned". So when you see the shadowing effect you can be pretty confident the coin is NT.>>>


We are all on the same page

BigE

If someboby could post a pic of the recently discovered dollar, the" bag" toned one, we may all be closer--------------BigE

JRocco

Great post Eric. Your pics show what you are explaining perfectly. Thanks.

ElectricEye

<< <i>Yeah, and I'm sure one looks very familiar! >>



One looks vaguely familiar....

majorbigtime

I was looking for impressions of the bag, as in textile toning.

Can someone explain the difference between textile toning and bag toning?

Rob790

These high stressed areas 'can' get toned depending on the technique used to AT the coin. Some AT techniques can be used to either mask these areas (probably with an inert grease or other substance) or the AT method could also follow an NT process close enough from a physics viewpoint to also NOT tone these areas. There is no one foolproof characteristic to determine AT/NT, just another point to consider when making an assesment. It really depends on the overall look of the piece. There is no one foolproof bullet to mark a coin as NT. Remember that tone docs are as smart as anyone here and the accomplished ones can probably work out some method to dupilicate any single characteristic you are looking at - it is probably a lot harder to make all the charcteristics match so this is what really has to be considered. You are making a grave mistake if you see that no toning patch and saying "A-HA" it's NT!

BTW, nice coins.

K6AZ

<< <i>Great post Eric. Your pics show what you are explaining perfectly. Thanks. >>



You're welcome. I'm glad that people are getting something out of this.

ElectricEye

Did someone say shadows?

BigE

I treepeat, look at the stars on the 82, try and AT that, holdher all the time

stman

OK, first of all those twin ladies look kinda iffy to me. Second, how come coins like these that are bag toned don't start with the yellow/brown color?....

K6AZ

<< <i>These areas 'can' get toned depending on the technique used to AT the coin. Some AT techniques can be used to either mask these areas (probably with an inert grease or other substance) or the AT method could also follow an NT process close enough from a physics viewpoint to also NOT tone these areas. This is no one foolproof characteristic to determine AT/NT, just another point to consider when making an assesment. It really depends on the overall look of the piece. There is no one foolproof bullet to mark a coin as NT. Remember that tone docs are as smart as anyone here and the accomplished ones can probably work out some method to dupilicate any single characteristic you are looking at - it is probably a lot harder to make all the charcteristics match so this is what really has to be considered. You are making a grave mistake if you see that no toning patch and saying "A-HA" it's NT!

BTW, nice coins. >>



You are of course right, nothing can be 100% fool proof. When I look at toned coins, I have seven things I look for, and make my determination based on the sum of those seven points. Some carry more weight than others. The color progression and graduation between the colors is the most important. Some of these points are quite complicated, and I wanted to avoid getting into very detailed points. The color transition and the delineation between the toned and untoned parts of a bag toned coin is a pretty simple matter as I have outlined and shown.

K6AZ

<< <i>OK, first of all those twin ladies look kinda iffy to me. Second, how come coins like these that are bag toned don't start with the yellow/brown color?....

>>



This coin is a perfect example of one that was flush up against the bag. On coins like this where the entire obverse toned, you will find the yellow/gold/brown at the rims and "flowing" over onto the reverse. Look at the lower reverse periphery of this coin, it has the exact toning I am talking about. If this coin had remained undisturbed for another twenty or so year, the obverse would have turned the color of my 87 pair.

K6AZ

<< <i>I was looking for impressions of the bag, as in textile toning.

Can someone explain the difference between textile toning and bag toning? >>



No one can be certain, but the presence of textile toning has a lot to do with the type of bag used (there were several different suppliers of mint bags from 1878-1904) and the atmospheric conditions where the bag was stored. Vivid textile toned dollars are among the most expensive, and the type of toning that is most often doctored.

The simple answer to your question is textile toning is bag toning with the pattern of the bag reflecting on the pattern of the toning.

TonedCoinTrader

I was looking for impressions of the bag, as in textile toning.

Can someone explain the difference between textile toning and bag toning?


Bag Toning and Textile Toning actually come from the same "source" "the Bag" the difference is that the "Textile Toning" is due to Direct contact with the Canvas "Bag" that the coin was stored in. Bag toned coins are Toned via the sulfer outgas from the material the bag is made out of (when stored for very Long periods of time) as are Textile Toned coins. The only difference is " the Textile Toned" coins were in "direct contact" with the Canvas Bag.

Hope this helps,


Scott


EDITED to say Canvas instead of Burlap (was on the sauce)

Rob790

<< <i>You are of course right, nothing can be 100% fool proof. When I look at toned coins, I have seven things I look for, and make my determination based on the sum of those seven points. Some carry more weight than others. The color progression and graduation between the colors is the most important. Some of these points are quite complicated, and I wanted to avoid getting into very detailed points. The color transition and the delineation between the toned and untoned parts of a bag toned coin is a pretty simple matter as I have outlined and shown. >>



Good points K6AZ.

I'm curious thought cause I have never seen one, are there ANY Peace dollars with bag toning or textile? Anyone got pics? I know they are a lot harder to find but I've never even seen one, I have seen a pic of a 1921 Morgan with beautiful textiles so there has to be Peace dollars with a nice textile or even a creasent toning.

stman

<< <i>On coins like this where the entire obverse toned, you will find the yellow/gold/brown at the rims and "flowing" over onto the reverse. >>



Hey very good. Now, in those threads of conflict, I brought up did anybody pay attention to the reverse of both coins that had full obverse tone?

Perhaps not every time, but most of the time with full obverse tone (as you have pointed out) there will be some kind of tone at least on the periph on the reverse. Now I DID say MOST of the time. That "Textile" one had some dark type crescent at the bottom edge of the coin.
One would think and more-so when it's that dark that it would have some kinda yellow/brown on the reverse.

Both coins looked blast white on the reverse. Interesting.

K6AZ

<< <i>

<< <i>On coins like this where the entire obverse toned, you will find the yellow/gold/brown at the rims and "flowing" over onto the reverse. >>



Hey very good. Now, in those threads of conflict, I brought up did anybody pay attention to the reverse of both coins that had full obverse tone?

Perhaps not every time, but most of the time with full obverse tone (as you have pointed out) there will be some kind of tone at least on the periph on the reverse. Now I DID say MOST of the time. That "Textile" one had some dark type crescent at the bottom edge of the coin.
One would think and more-so when it's that dark that it would have some kinda yellow/brown on the reverse.

Both coins looked blast white on the reverse. Interesting. >>



Exactly. While some coin doctors can be very good playing with colors, they often overlook little facts, like most bag toned coins will show that little bit of color on the reverse. What we had there were coins that were AT'ed to look like bag toning on the obverse, but the reverses looked like something you would expect on an end roller.

ss350camaro

Great thread Eric !!

Beautiful Morgans too !

K6AZ

<< <i>I'm curious thought cause I have never seen one, are there ANY Peace dollars with bag toning or textile? Anyone got pics? I know they are a lot harder to find but I've never even seen one, I have seen a pic of a 1921 Morgan with beautiful textiles so there has to be Peace dollars with a nice textile or even a creasent toning. >>



As you know, the coinage of silver dollars was halted in 1904. By the time coinage resumed in 1921, the mint had undergone many changes in the way they produced silver coins, and also the bags that they used. The primary reason you do not see 1921-1935 dollars toned like earlier issues was that the mint changed their annealing process and also the process for rinsing the planchets. Not only did the rinsing process inhibit the vibrant toning you see on earlier dollars, it is also the cause of the unsightly "milk spots" you see on a lot of Peace dollars.

stman

BTW, as you know my comment on the twin ladies being "iffy" was in jest. I know I know, NOT FOR SALE!!!!

K6AZ

<< <i>BTW, as you know my comment on the twin ladies being "iffy" was in jest. I know I know, NOT FOR SALE!!!! >>



I know, and you know my answer, so I saw no point in mentioning it!

stman

<< <i> If this coin had remained undisturbed for another twenty or so year, the obverse would have turned the color of my 87 pair. >>



Perhaps... but don't let the appearance of the dark fields mis-lead you. The obverse is very proof-like, with a nice cameo and with just a slight tilt those obverse colors (and the field) brighten up and the mirrors light up the colors.

puff

I like these toned Morgans I stole from stman.