get over the "AT vs NT" obsession
dorkkarl
Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
where slabing of coins is concerned, "AT vs NT" is meaningless, pure, aimless, meandering nonsensical empty rubbish.
the question is "slabable vs not slabable", which equates to "mkt-acceptable vs mkt-unacceptable" (for those of you who think the "market" consists of slabed coins).
K S
the question is "slabable vs not slabable", which equates to "mkt-acceptable vs mkt-unacceptable" (for those of you who think the "market" consists of slabed coins).
K S
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If I bop you in the eye and you get a shiner, is that AT or NT????
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>And following that logic.........................if you are a collector of rare autographs or documents, it doesn't matter if they're original signatures and documents or if they were forged, as long as they were well done and market acceptable.....right?? >>
Only if your CBS......
dorkkarl, I think anyone that has read these threads for less than a week knows that you have different opinions and dislike slabs. No argument there, that works for you. But with all due respect I don't think you show due respect to those that do clollect coins that happen to be or prefer them to be slabbed. I think that is something you have to let go of.
In that respect, NT or AT becomes very relevant (even though IMO this is probably as tricky as assigning MS grades)
If this thread was an offshoot of those "other" threads, then again for me I think the point has been missed. If any other seller (pick one of the many that have been toasted on these message boards) had listed an auction claiming the coin was almost certainly NT and I'm too lazy to slab, and suggest a grade (especially one higher than the coin had previously) and big bonus or reward if YOU can slab it at a specific grade etc etc, that seller would have been torn to shreds by nearly every member here.
My concern was why are the "rules" different for board members?
Joe.
If ET had a loose alien girlfriend would the mean she's EZ?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>And following that logic.........................if you are a collector of rare autographs or documents, it doesn't matter if they're original signatures and documents or if they were forged, as long as they were well done and market acceptable.....right?? >>
adding a forged signature is akin to adding a forged mintmark, not to adding tone. therefore, you are not "following that logic".
<< <i>dorkkarl, I think anyone that has read these threads for less than a week knows that you have different opinions and dislike slabs >>
ironically, i DO NOT dislike slabs. what i dislike is the blatant over-hyping of slabs & the way they marketed to newbies in such a way that they believe that simply "buying slabs" is equivalent to being a coin collector.
very, very few folks seem to have the guts to point this out.
K S
"meaningless, pure, aimless, meandering nonsensical empty rubbish"
These types of statements are typical and widespread of people who either don't understand beautifully toned coins, can't tell what is original from bogus with any accuracy, or just plain don't like them for whatever reason. They will say anything to try and convince others that toning is a fad, a ripoff, no one can tell the difference, not worth the money, etc, etc.
In any case, your claims are 100% false and rather amateurish. What are you going to claim next, that dates and mintmarks are meaningless nonsensical pure rubbish too?
<< <i>I disagree!
If I bop you in the eye and you get a shiner, is that AT or NT???? >>
It 's artificially induced naturally toned.
A common date MS-65 Morgan can be had for less then $100
If a chemical reaction on the surface causes light to be reflected at different wave-lengths, it will change the way the eye sees the coin.
If that change makes it more pleasing to the observer, the coin is then sold for MANY multiples of a coin with a pure original surface.
So there is a financial incentive to alter the coins appearance.
AT vs. NT does make a big difference - but unless you have followed the coin since it left the mint, there is no way to know for sure how the surface was altered.
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That's another untrue statement.
<< <i>That's another untrue statement. >>
Not at all.
All you can do is compare the coin to "known" coins that were "discovered" say in an un-opened mint bag that were declared NT.
You can also compare bad AT coins to other known bad AT coins.
Those, in-between become "market-acceptable"
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since 8/1/6
<< <i>what i dislike is the blatant over-hyping of slabs & the way they marketed to newbies in such a way that they believe that simply "buying slabs" is equivalent to being a coin collector. >>
I think you can be a "slab" collector if that's all you do, but you can't be a *numismatist*. In that case, you're buying the plastic more than the coin. There's nothing wrong with "buying the plastic" as long as you're buying the coin first and foremost, and the slab secondarily.
You can be a coin collector by buying slabs, and in some cases it's reasonable protection for a newbie from being horribly burned, BUT it's no substitute for picking up the books, learning to grade coins on your own, refining your own sense of eye appeal and being selective, understanding and appreciating the history behind the coin...even if you still only buy slabbed coins.
Even when I look for slabbed stuff, I still insist on looking at the *coin* and seeing if I like it enough at that grade level and the money being offered. I don't just say "I want this coin in that grade" and buy the first slab I see (even it's cheap, because there's probably a reason it's cheap). I think a true numismatist wants to know all there is to know about coins, including the history, the grading, the detection of fakes and more. Without that, you are little more than an accumulator of coins embedded in plastic. Nine times on ten I pass on a coin I need in the slabbed grade I'm looking for because I *don't like the coin* enough to want it to represent one of the types in my collection.
<< <i>I was following your logic exactly, you are claiming that something as valuable, significant, and sought after as beautiful original toning as opposed to the work of a coin doctor is:
"meaningless, pure, aimless, meandering nonsensical empty rubbish" >>
no, you are NOT following my logic, because you put my comment out of context. you forgot that i ALSO said "(for those of you who think the "market" consists of slabed coins)"
my point IS that for those of you collecting by the plastic, the issue of AT VS NT IS BOGUS.
all that matters is it's in plastic.
sorry, but the rest of your argument is void since you did NOT follow my logic.
(unless you seriously believe there are no AT coins in plastic)
<< <i>AT vs. NT does make a big difference - but unless you have followed the coin since it left the mint, there is no way to know for sure how the surface was altered. >>>
That's another untrue statement >>
i agree. however, it is true that there is NO CONSISTENT 100% ACCURATE test for what most of you are calling "at".
however, there IS a 100% accurate test for mkt-acceptable (again, for plastic collectors) - if it's in pcgs or ngc plastic, it is by def'n M-A.
K S
Now, because of the huge market premiums being placed on colorfully toned coins, there's a large commercial incentive for doctors to tone coins just for the color...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i> think you can be a "slab" collector if that's all you do, but you can't be a *numismatist*. In that case, you're buying the plastic more than the coin. There's nothing wrong with "buying the plastic" as long as you're buying the coin first and foremost, and the slab secondarily.
>>
Um, you're overstating your case. I have no interest in being a numismatist and I do not buy the plastic more than the coin. I am a person who appreciates coins and their history/preservation but has zero interest in knowing the level of detail that others enjoy. I do get very tired of the attitude here that you are only "serious" about coins if you can recite the EAC pledge of allegiance or can describe in endless detail some minor die variety. Some people enjoy the deep details. More power to them. Others like me don't care. Those of us who don't care aren't any less of a collector or so clueless as to get duped by plastic. These generalities really are just silly at this point.
Neil
<< <i>Um, you're overstating your case. I have no interest in being a numismatist and I do not buy the plastic more than the coin. >>
Um, if you're not buying the plastic more than the coin, I believe what I said does not apply to you.
The issue with toning is not trying to determine whether a coin is AT vs. NT. I admit I know very little about metal chemistry, but when I hear the explanation about whether a coin is AT or not it sounds like circular reasoning to me. For example, "I just know the coin is AT and here's are my reasons to support what I already "know". Not exactly the scientific method, IMO.
The issue with toning is "intent". In other words, did a collector and/or coin doctor intentionally tone a coin, either by storing the coin in a particular environment, putting it in a potato in an oven, etc. Or did the coin unintentionally tone over time in a mint bag, album, or paper envelope.
And this IMO is the problem with the toning debate. No matter how much we try, in most cases it's impossible to determine "intent". Sure the coin doctor is easy, his/her intent is to AT. But what about the collector who puts a SAE in a paper envelope? Was it intentional or not? No one knows for sure.
So based on my limited knowledge of this very strange segment of the hobby, I agree with DK. The only judge is the market and whether the market accepts the toning on the coin. The plastic surrounding the coin is a professional opinion that the toning is acceptable.
Remember professional graders are not chemical engineers.
<< <i>Sorry, but artificially toned coins have altered surfaces in my opinion and should be rejected outright by the grading services as well as the public. >>
you are including coins stored in whitman albums, in original mint packaging, in paper tubes, in basements, in attics - all are arenas for altering the surfaces of coins.
yet those same coins frequently are considered market-acceptable.
regarding intent, yep, your danged right i intend to get tone on certain coins. that's why i put 'em in my whitman classics & store 'em next to the water heater. here again, i satisfy a proposed def'n of "a-t".
yet my coins, put in artificial environments w/ the explicit intent to tone 'em - are STILL market-acceptable.
again & again, the facts support the contention that "a-t vs n-t" is NOT the argument at hand.
K S
only to find out when I go to sell it that it is only worth cents on the dollar.
I only buy PCGS coins, from reputable dealers , that are classical type, in very
high grade that I believe are NT. Even so, I always wonder if it tis or it taint.
Its getting tougher to know for sure every year. All one can do is be extra careful.
Camelot
K S
the question is "slabable vs not slabable", which equates to "mkt-acceptable vs mkt-unacceptable" (for those of you who think the "market" consists of slabed coins).
K S "
I agree. It's always been my contention that if it's in an PCGS or NGC holder, that's good enough for me.
adrian (in London and man am I tired)
[Gotta go or wife will get majorly made at me (we're celebrating out 10th wedding anniversary)]
<< <i>Bag toning aka BT is just one type of natural toning or NT. Not all NT coins are eye appealing as you well know. There are a lot of NT coins that are downright ugly no matter which TPG slab they are in. I would think that most AT coins could be dipped and allowed to retone if the colors bother you. The sad thing about AT is that so many coins are ruined trying to get one nice one. >>
AT coins cannot always be dipped. And even if you did, you'd only end up with dip toning as you've stripped off so much of the coin surface. Not to mention the devastating effect on luster.
>The sad thing about AT is that so many coins are ruined trying to get one nice one
This I completely agree with!
<< <i>AT coins cannot always be dipped. And even if you did, you'd only end up with dip toning as you've stripped off so much of the coin surface. Not to mention the devastating effect on luster. >>
True which is why I said most and not all. Maybe I should have used some or many. Either way depending on how the toning was created it may or not be removable without ruining the coin. Since I don't AT or dip coins I have no experience in the area.
I spose if you wanted to split hairs you could say that bag toning is a form of AT since the chemical residues on/in canvas are not normally a naturally occurring environment anywhere else. The reason that it is widely accepted as NT is because the bags were used for storage and not for the express purpose of toning the coins.
1) Not all "AT'd" coins turn black a few years later.
2) Some "NT" coins turn black after a few years.
3) The TPG's slab "AT" coins.
4) Slabs define what is "acceptable" NOT what is supposedly "AT". Two different things. Which is why 3) is true.
However....
5) Most important of all there really is NO set definition of "AT". Is it "live" or is it "Memorx"? Is it "intent" or is it "length of time"? Who knows? Who cares? Therefore, just based on THAT alone the statements above are rather moot...until you do come up with a definition.
<< <i>do you ever buy a coin just because you like it, & to he11 w/ what anyone thinks, & to he11 w/ the price? >>
Well I DO care what the price is. In fact, it is part of the criteria of whether I "like" the coin. I've got to like the price too. Does that makes sense?
jom
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
If I like the coin, I buy it. I don't care what anyone else thinks.
If I don't like the coin, I don't buy it. Again, I don't care what anyone else thinks.
I collect coins, not opinions.
1) Not all "AT'd" coins turn black a few years later.
2) Some "NT" coins turn black after a few years.
3) The TPG's slab "AT" coins.
4) Slabs define what is "acceptable" NOT what is supposedly "AT". Two different things. Which is why 3) is true.
However....
5) Most important of all there really is NO set definition of "AT". Is it "live" or is it "Memorx"? Is it "intent" or is it "length of time"? Who knows? Who cares? Therefore, just based on THAT alone the statements above are rather moot...until you do come up with a definition.
AMEN!
<< <i>where slabing of coins is concerned, "AT vs NT" is meaningless, pure, aimless, meandering nonsensical empty rubbish.
the question is "slabable vs not slabable", which equates to "mkt-acceptable vs mkt-unacceptable" (for those of you who think the "market" consists of slabed coins). K S >>
It may even be more than that: Whether slabbed or raw - isn't the real question: Is it "saleable" ie - will another collector or dealer buy it because they are comfortable that the toning on the coin is original natural toning and not a "cooked" coin that was made in someone's chemistry lab last week?
Bryan Sonnier has many toned coins that are NOT in slabs that I would love to own - I don't believe the issue is whether it's slabbed, but whether the coin is saleable in the open market to a knowledgeable coin collector or dealer - Maybe we're saying the same thing, because salability and market acceptable may be the same concept.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Karl the coins in question weren't in slabs, so your anti-slab propaganda on a slab board isn't relevant!
K S
<< <i>If I bop you in the eye and you get a shiner, is that AT or NT???? >>
Natural toning; artificially induced.
It's important because people who artificially tone do not disclose that fact. They hide it. So it matters to that segment of collectors who cares/appreciates/wants color on their coins how it got there. Same thing could be said about tooling. If it makes the coin look better, who cares if it is tooled?
Here's the best definition I can come up with. If I stuck my coin in a paper envelope and left it ina hot safe for 10 years as an investment and it comes out toned , that natural.
If I stuck my coin in a paper envelope and put it an oven to make it toned , that AT.
What's the difference, the intent?
Maybe what we need is to have some good recipies for color. A book on "how to custom color your coins" would be a great seller, then we could have contests for the prettiest colors, best design etc.
Probably won't happen too soon. There much more to be made making and selling them at multiples of value then there would be in book royalties.
<< <i>That was a joke. >>
it was a mean joke.
you're mean!
K S
I like PCGS and NGC in that I don't have to go through as many coins as in the pre-slabbing era to find one or more that are acceptable to me. Their authentication is good if I'm dealing with a coin which is often counterfeited and I want an insurance policy on the purchase.
I do not like AT'd coins, and I don't care whether they are not they are slabbed. Karl, let me put it this way. You're looking for a girlfriend. Wouldn't you prefer someone who was born as a human female versus a guy who had a sex change operation?
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Wouldn't you prefer someone who was born as a human female versus a guy who had a sex change operation? >>
I wonder if DK would consider her market acceptable?
Michael
<< <i>Wouldn't you prefer someone who was born as a human female versus a guy who had a sex change operation? >>
If I married her(him, IT) and found out later she was "AT", she would definitely end up in a body bag.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wouldn't you prefer someone who was born as a human female versus a guy who had a sex change operation? >>
If I married her(him, IT) and found out later she was "AT", she would definitely end up in a body bag. >>
Likw the coin collectors say "As long as you like it what does it matter if it real or not?"
K S