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Is manning awesome or what ?

dtkk49adtkk49a Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭
How about Peyton Manning today ? The guy was lights out today.

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Comments

  • I just do not get why anyone thinks he is that great. I mean he has Never won the big game. Not at Tennessee, not at Indy. Never. Like Joestalin likes to say, how many Rings does he have? He never beat Florida in his 4 years at Tennessee, and Did not win a National Title or Heisman trophy. Constantly hearing how great he is, with all of the inflated media hype that has always surrounded Peyton Manning, I found those remarks by announcers and fans of, "Peyton Manning is the best quarterback ever to play the game" just plain stupid.

    IMO, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Sonny Jurgensen, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, Steve Young and even Brett Farve were all much better quarterbacks. Each of those QBs played with injuries, excelled under pressure, and led their teams to either conference or Super Bowl championships.

    Manning has never played well under pressure and, as far as I know, has never played injured. In last year's AFC Championship game, the Patriots got his happy feet dancing, just like they used to dance in those Florida games, by throwing numerous blitz packages and keeping the pressure on.

    Before Peyton Manning is crowned as "the greatest QB of all time," I would like to see him (1) win a game where he is playing under constant blitz pressure; (2) absorb a crushing hit and rebound on the very next play; (3) play a game injured and win; and (4) win a championship game. Every one of the NFL quarterbacks I listed above accomplished each of those four tasks.

    Until he wins a Super Bowl, IMO, he will always be ranked right with Dan Marino - Just a QB with great stats but who could never win the big game!

    Right now, he's this decade's Dan Marino, while Tom Brady is the Joe Montana. Peyton might shatter the records, but Brady leads him by 2 in the one that really counts.
  • yawie99yawie99 Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    That's a pretty good analogy, I'd say. Doesn't mean Manning or Marino aren't great, but I'd rather have a quarterback with Brady/Montana greatness than Manning/Marino greatness.
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  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    If Indy can ever get home field throughout the playoffs I'd expect Manning to at least get to the bowl. I believe the Rams are still the only dome team to win a championship.
  • kobykoby Posts: 1,699 ✭✭
    He had a great season no doubt, but some players just don't rise to the occassion.
  • So you are saying that Peyton is a good QB when he plays at home? Well to me, to be a GREAT player you do it when times are tough (bad weather, on the road, injured, without protection, whatever) but Peyton is not doing that. He is evidently only able to do well when it is at home, in the dome, when he is in perfect health.
  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    I'm saying that team is built for the dome, it's not all on Manning. It's a team game and today he didn't make his team lose, didn't much to help them win but he didn't cause the loss. Manning has laid an egg in big games but then alot of quarterback's have. Only one can win. It took Elway 4 super bowl losses before he won (when the team around him improved). Since the Colts are built as a dome team they either need to win home field advantage or change the makeup of their team.
  • Teams win Super Bowls, not one player. Marino got there rather quickly when he had a top flight defense behid him. Then they ran into a better team and lost. After that season, Miami would normally have a very poor defense, and that is what kept them from getting there again, not from ineptness from Marino.

    Once again, people do that same thing of rating individuals in team sports on championships won by their team. There are a thousand variables that go into deciding on a championship team, yet people always say, "well he knows how to win", "He can win the big one," "He rises to the occasion." Blah Blah Blah.

    I used to hear this with Cowboy fans all the time and Aikman. Well answer this, how come after 1995 Aikman did crap in the playoffs(the scan few times he made it there) the rest of his career? Did he forget how to win? Did he no longer remember how to rise to the occasion? Was he no longer able to win the big one? Or was it because his team wasn't as good, and he didn't have as many talented players around him. Or because they didn't have home field advantage and they were playing better teams? Gee, what do you think?

    Same thing with Elway. All I heard during his first super bowl appearances was that he couldn't win the big one. He couldn't make the proper decisions, and he ran too much. He was a choker. Then all of a sudden a few years later they get one of the best offensive lines ever, and a superb running back, and the same Elway was now able to win a super bowl. Did he somehow take Aikman's "intangibles' with him? NO! Go through history and figure out more examples. Go through history and see how many teams have won with below average defenses.

    That 'ring' talk is all garbage. By saying he is a winner, or he doesn't win the big one, is just an easy way to make sense of a complex equation on what actually does win a championship. Kind of the same way the Greeks created Gods to explain the 'unexplainable' at the time.

    Trent Dilfer, and Jim Plunkett.
    Dan Marino, and Dan FOuts.

    Gee, given equal teams, and equal situations, does anybody honestly believe that Dilfer and Plunkett would have a better chance of taking the team to a super bowl over Marino and FOuts? Yet those to QB's 'know how to win', and the other two 'can't win the big one'.



    Peyton Manning is overrated, not because of a lack of a title, but because he is helped immensely by having many talented offensive players around him, and he gets to air it out indoors without wind as a factor. Take those variables away, and he doesn't sniff 30 TD's. Use those arguments to debunk him, not the mythical 'ring' argument.

    P.S. Don't forget that Manning really hasn't had too many super years as it is either. I believe this is the first year where he was the best QB in the league.
  • he did well... add in the 6 dropped passes and the bogus "fumble" that turned into a 14 pt swing (making a 13/10 final) and i'd not bother counting the INT w no time left. They got beat up and run over all day but Peyton didn't have a bad day, did better than Brady. the outcome, Colts had some REALLY BADLY timed penalties that cost them a ton of time and kept handing the 1st downs to NE.

    No matter, ATL will beat them to hell in the SB


  • << <i>Peyton Manning is overrated, not because of a lack of a title, but because he is helped immensely by having many talented offensive players around him, and he gets to air it out indoors without wind as a factor. Take those variables away, and he doesn't sniff 30 TD's. Use those arguments to debunk him, not the mythical 'ring' argument.

    P.S. Don't forget that Manning really hasn't had too many super years as it is either. I believe this is the first year where he was the best QB in the league. >>

    I did not just use the ring arguement. I mentioned that he has never ever won the big one. Even in college he was all flash, and they did have a good team around him then. In fact the year after he left, they won the National Title.
    I also want to point out that he did have a Record Setting rookie year. - He set the record for most Interceptions in a season! image
  • I'm a huge Packer fan, and Brett Favre and the Packers have been terrible in the playoffs the last five/six years. Did Favre somehow forget how to win? Can he no longer rise to the occasion? Or maybe because he has just had a few bad games in a row like anybody is capable given the chance that often. Or maybe because the Pack no longer has the best defense in the league like they did when Reggie White was there. Or maybe they are now facing superior teams in the playoffs.

    Faver has been considered the ultimate gamer, the ultimate clutch man, yet given enough games he has shown that he is still the same QB that he is in the regular season. It was just lucky for him that he was on a super team, and he played some good games in his early post season tries as that has now cushioned the blow for this latest stretch of badness. Well, what if he had never been on those early Packer teams, and he had his first taste of post season on these teams? He would then be considered a choker, or not capable of winning the big one either. It would be a false assessment.

    Elway was fortunate that he got on one of those good teams later on, as his situations is the reverse of Favre's. Had Elway retired two years earlier he would have gone down in falsely in history as a choker.

    If Manning continues to be good, and he never gets a chance to be on a team as well rounded as Favre's early on, or Elway's later on, then he will go on to be unfairly labled as 'choker'.

    Lets see if Manning is ever on a team that is in the top three no doubt in defense, and they aren't forced to go on the road all the time in the playoffs against superior teams, before anyone even makes those dumb arguments. If he goes five straight years with the best defense, and with home field advantage, and still doesn't go to the bowl, THEN you may begin formulating your argument as a choker. Until then, try and figure out why Atlas really doeesn't hold up the Earth.
  • a Packer fan in Hiding, welcome. Maybe grow a set and speak up next season ehh image
    Am I speaking Chinese?



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  • I said it on this boards some time ago.... Atlanta and New England in the big one.
    That being said, going into this game 3 out of 4 "experts" in the national media were picking the Colts.
    It's as simple as they got outplayed as a team. Just like last year. It's not all Mannings fault.
    but he is the leader and it all starts and ends with him.
    give me liberty or give me death
    my hotelsimage
  • You Boston fans are so dammmn spoiled right now, must suck!
    Am I speaking Chinese?



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  • LOL dabeef, yeah its been a fine run here the last couple of years.
    Makes up for the 2-14 seasons we suffered!
    give me liberty or give me death
    my hotelsimage
  • Actually Manning wasn't that bad.

    But seemingly EVERY time a player with gaudy statistics in a team sport plays a "team", a loss follows.

    They will handle Pittsburgh, easily.


  • << <i>he did well... add in the 6 dropped passes and the bogus "fumble" that turned into a 14 pt swing (making a 13/10 final) and i'd not bother counting the INT w no time left. They got beat up and run over all day but Peyton didn't have a bad day, did better than Brady. the outcome, Colts had some REALLY BADLY timed penalties that cost them a ton of time and kept handing the 1st downs to NE. >>

    You sound like joestalin, being a freaking crybaby about penalties. They deserved every one. If they were "poorly timed" maybe they should practice more so they do not happen as much. The fumble was a fumble. Quit trying to blame the refs for their piss-poor play!


  • << <i>Lets see if Manning is ever on a team that is in the top three no doubt in defense, and they aren't forced to go on the road all the time in the playoffs against superior teams, before anyone even makes those dumb arguments. If he goes five straight years with the best defense, and with home field advantage, and still doesn't go to the bowl, THEN you may begin formulating your argument as a choker. Until then, try and figure out why Atlas really doeesn't hold up the Earth. >>

    and maybe his Father can pay some of the linemen to Hold his hand and walk him through the offense so nothing bad can happen at all? image (how easy do we need to make it for this guy to be able to win? I mean, the great QBs in history, did not need "perfect conditions" - they just went out there and kicked ass!
  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    Manning beat the Chiefs last year at KC in the playoffs. KC is a very tough place to play, so I wouldn't say he can't win anything on the road, he just can't beat the Patriots. I'm not a Manning fan, but I do believe the day will come when he wins the big game, he is just too good too keep losing - same way with McNabb.


  • << <i>I do believe the day will come when he wins the big game, he is just too good too keep losing >>

    People have been saying that about him since grade school. He never did yet, so what are you basing this speculation on? Blind hope?
  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    Not hope, like I said I'm not a fan so it won't bother me if his day never comes. I just think if the Colts management remains committed to winning and puts good player around him it will happen. If not he'll just be the Marino of our era and itstead of the Marino/Montana argument we'll have the Brady/Manning argument.
  • GobravesGo, would you like to back up your statments with evidence? Here is your first assignment, go ahead and find a NFL quarteback that won the Super Bowl with a defnese ranked near the bottom. Heck, go ahead and see how many QB's won the Super Bowl with a defense that is ranked below the top ten. Your not going to find too many. You will find plenty of outstanding QB's who were good enough to get weaker teams into the playoffs, but not be able to overcome superior teams on the road, ala Manning.

    Tom Brady wins super bowls because he is a good QB, and his defense is among the top three in the league. Put Tom Brady on the Bears this year, and I highly doubt he wins the bowl, just like Joe Montana was not able to do with the Kansas City Chiefs. If the almighty Joe was such a winner, then he should have carried that over to the Chiefs and done the same thing. Oh wait, he forgot to bring Jerry Rice or John Taylor or Roger Craig. HE ALSO FORGOT TO BRING THE ENTIRE SECONDARY OF LOTT, WRIGHT, WILLIAMSON, AND HICKS WHO WERE ALL PRO BOWLERS in 1984!!! Do you think those guys had a hand in stopping Dan Marino in the Super Bowl? San Francisco had the clear number one defense in 1984. They allowed 227 points. best in NFL. Had they ranked 20th in the NFL, I tend to believe they don't do quite as well as 15-1. Examples are abound of what I am talking about, and almost nonexistant of what you are saying(and other myth believers).

    In 1982 SF was 2nd best in NFC in points allowed. In 1988 they were fourth. .

    Check Bradshaw and his defnese, Staubauch, Brady, Aikman, Favre...everyone. Put Minnesota's defense of this year on any of those teams and none of them win the Super Bowl, as they would lose more games to begin with, and they would also have to play superior teams on the road in the playoffs. Yeah, if they get lucky and have an upset from somebody else, it may allow for it, but to say it is up to the QB is ridiculous. Judge Jimmy Connors, and Mcenroe, and Navritilova, and Billy jean King, and Nicholson, and Trevino on titles, BUT NOT TEAM SPORT PLAYERS!


    Then find a QB that won the Super Bowl with a bottom ranked defense, AND winning on the road in the playoffs. You need to reread my earlier posts.

    Here is a clue for everyone, includiing the morons on ESPN talk shows who continue to say all this stuff... it isn't true! It is always said for the ease to explain the difficult, and it makes for better TV than the truth! So stop spewing the garbage announcers, and stop repeating (fans) who don't have a clue themselves.
  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    Nice post Skinpinch,
    I did the research back to 1980 and in terms of points allowed only 1983 Raiders won the bowl without a top ten D, they were 13th. They also won it in 1980 with 10th best, but besides that the majority of winners had a top 5 defense. The Colts did have the #7 D in 2002 the year they got routed by the Jets in the opening round, but since then they've been 19th, and 20th.
  • Thanks cardsfan. You know what amazes me? When announcers/fans/broadcasters constantly say defense wins championships etc.., and then the next breath they say "Peyton Manning can't win the big one." They put the blame on the QB for lack of winning, and forget the other half of the equation.

    Actually offense isn't even half, as special teams take a percentage too. Come to think of it, a QB is basically a non factor in all running plays, so what percentage does he actually play and make a difference. Then consider when the QB goes to pass, that every complete pass means that somebody was good enough to get open and actually catch the ball, so the WR gets credit too. Then consider when a pass is completed, the high majority of the time is because the QB had enough time to throw because the offensive line did the blocking, so they too get credit.

    On every completed pass the QB, WR, and offensive line all have a hand in the play. Then consider that the ability of the RB also has a hand in the play as the defense must put focus on him and his running. The QB has no play at all in his defense. Next time I see Tom Brady sack the other QB, then we can give him a little more credit.
  • CardsFanCardsFan Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭
    WOW image Why would anyone draft a quarterback in the first round?


  • << <i>GobravesGo, would you like to back up your statments with evidence? >>

    The fact that he has NEVER EVER WON THE BIG GAME - EVER EVER EVER in his career in college or pro. (I do not even think that he did in High School). That is evidence enough. Now you can go ahead and continue to post all the EXCUSES, but come on, ALL those teams could not all suck, since they all got Close, but in the end PEYTON screwed it up IN THE BIG GAME! Last weekend, after setting a NFL RECORD For TD passes in the Season, he scored exactly 0. How did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
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  • GBG,

    Let me ask you this question, had Elway not played his final two years would you have branded him a loser like Payton Manning?

    Did the fact that his last two years in the NFL he won the Super Bowl erase the three losses he had in the 80's and never winning an NCAA championship?
  • Gobravesgo, you need to read the posts again. Just by saying he has never won is absolutely no evidence at all. That is exactly what I am educating you about. The fact that one QB has never won doesn't at all mean that he can't win a big game. I am showing you that there are too many variables that play extremely large roles in determining a championship team, yet you just pin it all on one man.

    I am trying to tell you that ALL NFL QB's that have won super bowls NEEDED a top ranked defense behind them to accomplish it! What part of that don't you understand? By having a number one defense, AND a HOF QB and offense, that means you will probably have the best record, and you will get home field advantage. Then once you get in the playoffs your road to the Super Bowl becomes soo much easier. If Tom Brady has the Colts defense for the whole year, and Manning the Pats defense, then the Colts will undoubtedly win more games than the pats, then that means the Colts play at home all playoffs.

    I am still waiting for you to find a QB that has won a super bowl with a defense ranked below 20. I'm waiting....Still waiting....

    Then there is the whole factor of probability and chance of equal(or near equal) teams when they square off in the playoffs. If the Colts and Pats were equal(which they are clearly not), then it is quite possible that the pats win three in a row just based on probability. If they played 30 more times in the playoffs, and they were equal, it would start to even out. But these are very small sample sizes, and I didn't even get into that aspect of the variables, as I have been concentrating on the ELEMENTARY aspects that anyone with logic would see.

    "Defense wins championships." "Colts lose in playoffs, it's all Mannings fault." "Pats win the bowl, Brady is best ever." "It takes a team effort to win." You yourself have probably uttered everyone of those phrases, but they are totally contradictory.
  • Evidence he is not that good:
    In his rookie year he set an NFL RECORD for Most Interceptions thrown EVER in a season. How exactly did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
    Last weekend, after setting a NFL RECORD For TD passes in the Season, he scored exactly 0. How exactly did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
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  • Boy your evidence is overwhelming.

    I went to a bar for the first time and got drunk and threw up by drinking WHiskey and Water. Next time I tried a different drink, Vodka and water, and got sick as a dog again. Next time I tried a new drink so I drank Gin and water, and threw up again. I guess I learned my lesson and I will NEVER drink water again because it makes me throw up!!

    Did you ever hear of the word variables?

    You need to make a case that an elite pro athlete who has been through all types of pressure packed situations and environments throughout his career, can all of a sudden not know how to play in a big game. You need to take into account all of the variables. You need to use MANY examples to show your evidence. The evidence of just saying Manning has never won is something a second grader would say. There are plenty of things to explain why he may not have won anything. So what you need to do is find many other examples where guys have not been able to nail down a big one.

    One important variable that you will find is that the guys who have won have had super defenses, and the guys who haven't won, have not. THat is one varaible. Probability and chance are another. See how many more you can come up with.

    In Manning's case, you wil then have to explain how a guy who can't handle pressure somehowe beat the chiefs in the playoffs on the road. Does he remember how to play under pressure one week, and then forget the next? Aren't all NFL games played in some degree of pressure? You do not even make it to the NFL if you cannot handle pressure, as you would get weeded out before you even get out of high school, as some of those games are more pressured than anything. GO do some homework and see what you come up with.

    I'm going to go get drunk on my glasses of water as that has been doing the trick lately based on my bar experiences.
  • I have to agree.
    Payton is tottally overrated,
    BUT he did win the SEC Championship
    game against my Auburn Tigers to
    give the Vols the Conference championship
    His Senior year in college (in like 1996).
    So that is at least ONE "Big Game" he did win.
    imageimage
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