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Is manning awesome or what ?
dtkk49a
Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
How about Peyton Manning today ? The guy was lights out today.
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They call me "Pack the Ripper"
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
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IMO, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Sonny Jurgensen, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, Steve Young and even Brett Farve were all much better quarterbacks. Each of those QBs played with injuries, excelled under pressure, and led their teams to either conference or Super Bowl championships.
Manning has never played well under pressure and, as far as I know, has never played injured. In last year's AFC Championship game, the Patriots got his happy feet dancing, just like they used to dance in those Florida games, by throwing numerous blitz packages and keeping the pressure on.
Before Peyton Manning is crowned as "the greatest QB of all time," I would like to see him (1) win a game where he is playing under constant blitz pressure; (2) absorb a crushing hit and rebound on the very next play; (3) play a game injured and win; and (4) win a championship game. Every one of the NFL quarterbacks I listed above accomplished each of those four tasks.
Until he wins a Super Bowl, IMO, he will always be ranked right with Dan Marino - Just a QB with great stats but who could never win the big game!
Right now, he's this decade's Dan Marino, while Tom Brady is the Joe Montana. Peyton might shatter the records, but Brady leads him by 2 in the one that really counts.
Once again, people do that same thing of rating individuals in team sports on championships won by their team. There are a thousand variables that go into deciding on a championship team, yet people always say, "well he knows how to win", "He can win the big one," "He rises to the occasion." Blah Blah Blah.
I used to hear this with Cowboy fans all the time and Aikman. Well answer this, how come after 1995 Aikman did crap in the playoffs(the scan few times he made it there) the rest of his career? Did he forget how to win? Did he no longer remember how to rise to the occasion? Was he no longer able to win the big one? Or was it because his team wasn't as good, and he didn't have as many talented players around him. Or because they didn't have home field advantage and they were playing better teams? Gee, what do you think?
Same thing with Elway. All I heard during his first super bowl appearances was that he couldn't win the big one. He couldn't make the proper decisions, and he ran too much. He was a choker. Then all of a sudden a few years later they get one of the best offensive lines ever, and a superb running back, and the same Elway was now able to win a super bowl. Did he somehow take Aikman's "intangibles' with him? NO! Go through history and figure out more examples. Go through history and see how many teams have won with below average defenses.
That 'ring' talk is all garbage. By saying he is a winner, or he doesn't win the big one, is just an easy way to make sense of a complex equation on what actually does win a championship. Kind of the same way the Greeks created Gods to explain the 'unexplainable' at the time.
Trent Dilfer, and Jim Plunkett.
Dan Marino, and Dan FOuts.
Gee, given equal teams, and equal situations, does anybody honestly believe that Dilfer and Plunkett would have a better chance of taking the team to a super bowl over Marino and FOuts? Yet those to QB's 'know how to win', and the other two 'can't win the big one'.
Peyton Manning is overrated, not because of a lack of a title, but because he is helped immensely by having many talented offensive players around him, and he gets to air it out indoors without wind as a factor. Take those variables away, and he doesn't sniff 30 TD's. Use those arguments to debunk him, not the mythical 'ring' argument.
P.S. Don't forget that Manning really hasn't had too many super years as it is either. I believe this is the first year where he was the best QB in the league.
No matter, ATL will beat them to hell in the SB
<< <i>Peyton Manning is overrated, not because of a lack of a title, but because he is helped immensely by having many talented offensive players around him, and he gets to air it out indoors without wind as a factor. Take those variables away, and he doesn't sniff 30 TD's. Use those arguments to debunk him, not the mythical 'ring' argument.
P.S. Don't forget that Manning really hasn't had too many super years as it is either. I believe this is the first year where he was the best QB in the league. >>
I did not just use the ring arguement. I mentioned that he has never ever won the big one. Even in college he was all flash, and they did have a good team around him then. In fact the year after he left, they won the National Title.
I also want to point out that he did have a Record Setting rookie year. - He set the record for most Interceptions in a season!
Faver has been considered the ultimate gamer, the ultimate clutch man, yet given enough games he has shown that he is still the same QB that he is in the regular season. It was just lucky for him that he was on a super team, and he played some good games in his early post season tries as that has now cushioned the blow for this latest stretch of badness. Well, what if he had never been on those early Packer teams, and he had his first taste of post season on these teams? He would then be considered a choker, or not capable of winning the big one either. It would be a false assessment.
Elway was fortunate that he got on one of those good teams later on, as his situations is the reverse of Favre's. Had Elway retired two years earlier he would have gone down in falsely in history as a choker.
If Manning continues to be good, and he never gets a chance to be on a team as well rounded as Favre's early on, or Elway's later on, then he will go on to be unfairly labled as 'choker'.
Lets see if Manning is ever on a team that is in the top three no doubt in defense, and they aren't forced to go on the road all the time in the playoffs against superior teams, before anyone even makes those dumb arguments. If he goes five straight years with the best defense, and with home field advantage, and still doesn't go to the bowl, THEN you may begin formulating your argument as a choker. Until then, try and figure out why Atlas really doeesn't hold up the Earth.
That being said, going into this game 3 out of 4 "experts" in the national media were picking the Colts.
It's as simple as they got outplayed as a team. Just like last year. It's not all Mannings fault.
but he is the leader and it all starts and ends with him.
my hotels
Makes up for the 2-14 seasons we suffered!
my hotels
But seemingly EVERY time a player with gaudy statistics in a team sport plays a "team", a loss follows.
They will handle Pittsburgh, easily.
<< <i>he did well... add in the 6 dropped passes and the bogus "fumble" that turned into a 14 pt swing (making a 13/10 final) and i'd not bother counting the INT w no time left. They got beat up and run over all day but Peyton didn't have a bad day, did better than Brady. the outcome, Colts had some REALLY BADLY timed penalties that cost them a ton of time and kept handing the 1st downs to NE. >>
You sound like joestalin, being a freaking crybaby about penalties. They deserved every one. If they were "poorly timed" maybe they should practice more so they do not happen as much. The fumble was a fumble. Quit trying to blame the refs for their piss-poor play!
<< <i>Lets see if Manning is ever on a team that is in the top three no doubt in defense, and they aren't forced to go on the road all the time in the playoffs against superior teams, before anyone even makes those dumb arguments. If he goes five straight years with the best defense, and with home field advantage, and still doesn't go to the bowl, THEN you may begin formulating your argument as a choker. Until then, try and figure out why Atlas really doeesn't hold up the Earth. >>
and maybe his Father can pay some of the linemen to Hold his hand and walk him through the offense so nothing bad can happen at all?
<< <i>I do believe the day will come when he wins the big game, he is just too good too keep losing >>
People have been saying that about him since grade school. He never did yet, so what are you basing this speculation on? Blind hope?
Tom Brady wins super bowls because he is a good QB, and his defense is among the top three in the league. Put Tom Brady on the Bears this year, and I highly doubt he wins the bowl, just like Joe Montana was not able to do with the Kansas City Chiefs. If the almighty Joe was such a winner, then he should have carried that over to the Chiefs and done the same thing. Oh wait, he forgot to bring Jerry Rice or John Taylor or Roger Craig. HE ALSO FORGOT TO BRING THE ENTIRE SECONDARY OF LOTT, WRIGHT, WILLIAMSON, AND HICKS WHO WERE ALL PRO BOWLERS in 1984!!! Do you think those guys had a hand in stopping Dan Marino in the Super Bowl? San Francisco had the clear number one defense in 1984. They allowed 227 points. best in NFL. Had they ranked 20th in the NFL, I tend to believe they don't do quite as well as 15-1. Examples are abound of what I am talking about, and almost nonexistant of what you are saying(and other myth believers).
In 1982 SF was 2nd best in NFC in points allowed. In 1988 they were fourth. .
Check Bradshaw and his defnese, Staubauch, Brady, Aikman, Favre...everyone. Put Minnesota's defense of this year on any of those teams and none of them win the Super Bowl, as they would lose more games to begin with, and they would also have to play superior teams on the road in the playoffs. Yeah, if they get lucky and have an upset from somebody else, it may allow for it, but to say it is up to the QB is ridiculous. Judge Jimmy Connors, and Mcenroe, and Navritilova, and Billy jean King, and Nicholson, and Trevino on titles, BUT NOT TEAM SPORT PLAYERS!
Then find a QB that won the Super Bowl with a bottom ranked defense, AND winning on the road in the playoffs. You need to reread my earlier posts.
Here is a clue for everyone, includiing the morons on ESPN talk shows who continue to say all this stuff... it isn't true! It is always said for the ease to explain the difficult, and it makes for better TV than the truth! So stop spewing the garbage announcers, and stop repeating (fans) who don't have a clue themselves.
I did the research back to 1980 and in terms of points allowed only 1983 Raiders won the bowl without a top ten D, they were 13th. They also won it in 1980 with 10th best, but besides that the majority of winners had a top 5 defense. The Colts did have the #7 D in 2002 the year they got routed by the Jets in the opening round, but since then they've been 19th, and 20th.
Actually offense isn't even half, as special teams take a percentage too. Come to think of it, a QB is basically a non factor in all running plays, so what percentage does he actually play and make a difference. Then consider when the QB goes to pass, that every complete pass means that somebody was good enough to get open and actually catch the ball, so the WR gets credit too. Then consider when a pass is completed, the high majority of the time is because the QB had enough time to throw because the offensive line did the blocking, so they too get credit.
On every completed pass the QB, WR, and offensive line all have a hand in the play. Then consider that the ability of the RB also has a hand in the play as the defense must put focus on him and his running. The QB has no play at all in his defense. Next time I see Tom Brady sack the other QB, then we can give him a little more credit.
<< <i>GobravesGo, would you like to back up your statments with evidence? >>
The fact that he has NEVER EVER WON THE BIG GAME - EVER EVER EVER in his career in college or pro. (I do not even think that he did in High School). That is evidence enough. Now you can go ahead and continue to post all the EXCUSES, but come on, ALL those teams could not all suck, since they all got Close, but in the end PEYTON screwed it up IN THE BIG GAME! Last weekend, after setting a NFL RECORD For TD passes in the Season, he scored exactly 0. How did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
Let me ask you this question, had Elway not played his final two years would you have branded him a loser like Payton Manning?
Did the fact that his last two years in the NFL he won the Super Bowl erase the three losses he had in the 80's and never winning an NCAA championship?
I am trying to tell you that ALL NFL QB's that have won super bowls NEEDED a top ranked defense behind them to accomplish it! What part of that don't you understand? By having a number one defense, AND a HOF QB and offense, that means you will probably have the best record, and you will get home field advantage. Then once you get in the playoffs your road to the Super Bowl becomes soo much easier. If Tom Brady has the Colts defense for the whole year, and Manning the Pats defense, then the Colts will undoubtedly win more games than the pats, then that means the Colts play at home all playoffs.
I am still waiting for you to find a QB that has won a super bowl with a defense ranked below 20. I'm waiting....Still waiting....
Then there is the whole factor of probability and chance of equal(or near equal) teams when they square off in the playoffs. If the Colts and Pats were equal(which they are clearly not), then it is quite possible that the pats win three in a row just based on probability. If they played 30 more times in the playoffs, and they were equal, it would start to even out. But these are very small sample sizes, and I didn't even get into that aspect of the variables, as I have been concentrating on the ELEMENTARY aspects that anyone with logic would see.
"Defense wins championships." "Colts lose in playoffs, it's all Mannings fault." "Pats win the bowl, Brady is best ever." "It takes a team effort to win." You yourself have probably uttered everyone of those phrases, but they are totally contradictory.
In his rookie year he set an NFL RECORD for Most Interceptions thrown EVER in a season. How exactly did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
Last weekend, after setting a NFL RECORD For TD passes in the Season, he scored exactly 0. How exactly did HIS defense not being good have anything to do with that?
I went to a bar for the first time and got drunk and threw up by drinking WHiskey and Water. Next time I tried a different drink, Vodka and water, and got sick as a dog again. Next time I tried a new drink so I drank Gin and water, and threw up again. I guess I learned my lesson and I will NEVER drink water again because it makes me throw up!!
Did you ever hear of the word variables?
You need to make a case that an elite pro athlete who has been through all types of pressure packed situations and environments throughout his career, can all of a sudden not know how to play in a big game. You need to take into account all of the variables. You need to use MANY examples to show your evidence. The evidence of just saying Manning has never won is something a second grader would say. There are plenty of things to explain why he may not have won anything. So what you need to do is find many other examples where guys have not been able to nail down a big one.
One important variable that you will find is that the guys who have won have had super defenses, and the guys who haven't won, have not. THat is one varaible. Probability and chance are another. See how many more you can come up with.
In Manning's case, you wil then have to explain how a guy who can't handle pressure somehowe beat the chiefs in the playoffs on the road. Does he remember how to play under pressure one week, and then forget the next? Aren't all NFL games played in some degree of pressure? You do not even make it to the NFL if you cannot handle pressure, as you would get weeded out before you even get out of high school, as some of those games are more pressured than anything. GO do some homework and see what you come up with.
I'm going to go get drunk on my glasses of water as that has been doing the trick lately based on my bar experiences.
Payton is tottally overrated,
BUT he did win the SEC Championship
game against my Auburn Tigers to
give the Vols the Conference championship
His Senior year in college (in like 1996).
So that is at least ONE "Big Game" he did win.