Does this high priced rarity looked cleaned???
kryptonitecomics
Posts: 9,185 ✭
I like the coin and would certainly love to own it, but I am wondering why it's in a PCGS holder when it looks cleaned to me. I don't know the specific diagnostics of the particulat coin, but it looks like their are a lot of visable hairlines on the Obverse 
1836 GOBRECHT $1
Was it slabbed becuase of what it was or am I off base on the cleaning perception???
1836 GOBRECHT $1
Was it slabbed becuase of what it was or am I off base on the cleaning perception???
0
Comments
And they specifically slabbed it as "original"
Got to love the irony
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
dragon
edited to add:
the next time PCGS bodybags one of your coins for altered surfaces or abrasive cleaning, just show them a pic of this one and ask why they employ different standards for different coins.....where's Frattlaw???
<< <i>...but I am wondering why it's in a PCGS holder when it looks cleaned to me. >>
The hairlines that some of you have mentioned, probably were (but don't have to have been) due to a "cleaning".
In response to the original question/point, however: The major grading companies will assign grades to coins which have been "cleaned". In such cases, the assigned grade will (hopefully) be lower than it would have been, were it not for the cleaning. In many instances though, the cleaning is severe enough so that a coin will receive a "no-grade", instead of a grade.
The decision whether to grade or no-grade a coin due to "cleaning" is often a very difficult and subjective one. One general, non-scientific rule of thumb that I have heard used, goes something like this: "Would the net grade assigned to the coin (to account for the cleaning) have to be so low as to seem silly?" If so, the coin should probably be body-bagged, rather than net-graded.
With all due respect, I don't buy that one bit! The fact is that PCGS uses DIFFERENT STANDARDS depending on how rare or expensive the coin in question is, plain and simple. If anyone doubts this.....try submitting a very common, inexpensive coin that is hairlined that badly from an abrasive cleaning, and see what happens.
San Diego, CA
<< <i>coinguy1,
With all due respect, I don't buy that one bit!The fact is that PCGS uses DIFFERENT STANDARDS depending on how rare or expensive the coin in question is, plain and simple >>
Dragon, please re-read my post if necessary, and you should see that I didn't claim otherwise.
An excellent answer to a question that I have always wanted to ask. Thanks once again, Mark.
Sorry for the ribbing on the BST thread.
Robert
<< <i>Sorry for the ribbing on the BST thread >>
Please don't aplogize - I enjoyed it.
The eagle's flying up.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Not to sound confrontational, but it sounds like you have very little experience with Gobrecht dollars. 90% of them were lightly cleaned at one time or another. They were issued for collectors, who at the time, were advocated to clean their coins. It is no big deal when there are some light cleaning lines (which is absolutely all that is present on this coin). Furthermore, digital cameras are very light sensitive, and they will greatly exaggerate anything that reflects light, including hairlines. >>
this looks like heavy 19th century wiping to me - although not the prettiest example I put it at PR-58-60 out-of-hand.
Best,
Billy
HRH states that early 19th century and 18th century coins are cut a bit of slack in the grading process. But I've seen trade dollars that look worse than that coin. You guys are waaaayyyy to hypercritical ... or too used to moderns!
I still think original 19th century wiping(s). This is a large heavy coin with huge empty fields - if wipe marks were ever going to scream it would be on such a design. I defer to TDN, and am changing my opinion to "not unnattracive Pr-61" - my out-of-hand grade.
Best,
Billy
Wasnt that the coin store that was for sale on ebay about six months ago? The whole thign was up for sale, website, store front, inventory........everything.
I wonder if they had a change of heart, or whoever bought turned it into a high end, high price superstore.
PS I' d take a ligtly cleaned Gobrecht Dollar, any day of the week.
I did - someone said something about "the reeded edge" a while ago but I have no idea what it was, so I've no idea what it means. Sorry
Billy
edited: sorry, I was thinking about the bluemoon coin guy...
edited again: I hope he's ok
edited once more:
one last edit: would someone please post a morgan....
I love the coin and would be proud to have it in my collection, but not in a PCGS holder. I agree with everyone that posted that a cleaned coin should not have been holdered regardless of the coin and the common practice of cleaning them back then. In comics we see the same double standard with regards to grading Golden Age books vs Silver or even Bronze and I don't like it.
I don't think the coin was cleaned with a brillo pad, but rather a cloth as mentioned, but it is clearly cleaned which means it should reside in an anacs net graded holder vs a PCGS. I am not saying that PCGS did not net grade the coin, but there is no way to tell how much they took off for the cleaning and I can assure you that if I sent in say a Morgan Silver dollar with those lines they would have BB it in a heart beat.
Consistency is the key here and if I can't get a cleaned coin into a holder then it sends the wrong message that someone else can. I don't think this is a conspiracy or anything and I am quite sure that NGC does the same thing on occasion, I am just never going to feel comfortable with it. I am sure whoever purchases the coin will be very pleased with it regardless of the lines and holder or not that's all that really maters.
In any case, this would likely have been bagged in 1989 but not necessarily by today's standards. Coins graded less than MS63 usually have major problems including old or fresh cleanings.
MS60,61,62 usually imply a problem or damaged coin. Not always, but more so than not. They get graded PF61 for a reason. PCGS wants more revenue so the standards have been lessened over the years.
Reeded Edge has called this a "PF61 PQ" coin. Does it have a BIN?
roadrunner
The grading services routinely overgrade coins of this ilk. Here is my Gobrecht Dollar, which most people would say is a re-strike. I’d give it no more than PR-53, but it’s in an NGC PR-60 holder. The one thing I can say about my piece is that it has not been cleaned.
BTW I bought this coin raw and had it slabbed many years lager.
With that said, the [image of the] PCGS coin appears to be of significantly higher quality than [the image of] yours.
Looking at the pair of the coins, I'd say that one in the PCGS PR-61 is no better than PR-55, maybe less given the obvious cleaning. It does not show, but my piece has about 70 to 80 % of the Proof surface still intact, and it's not been marked with cleaning hairlines.
I bought it as a PR-50 back in the 1980s. The dealer called it PR-58, but I paid PR-50 money. I would not describe the piece on Ebay as "significantly better."
that was the thread about reedededge here when they stopped their no reserve auctions on ebay with only minutes remaining and a lot of people complained
I hesitate to make lasting opinions off of pictures, yet I will stick to my guns. Your coin appears to be circulated whereas the PCGS coin has significant bloom still on the devices. The PCGS coin could easily be in a 62 holder. Of course, that's not to say that an AU coin cannot be more desirable than a technically unc coin.
IMO, collectors [myself included] tend to focus on technicalities too much when grading coins. I'm coming to realize that the surface quality of the devices is primary and any marks or lines in the field very much a distant second. Give me a coin with light lines and a beautiful frosty liberty and eagle any ol' day of the week!
As for my coin being an "original issue" that could very well be the case. You see very few of these early die state alignment IV coins that are in Mint State. If these coins were sold to collectors in the 1850s, why did the collectors spend them or care for them so poorly?
You can stick to your guns all your like. Yes, that coin does not have a rub on the thigh or the breast, but if the mint surfaces are as hairlined as they appear to be, there's no way that I would call that coin a "Mint State Proof." I've found that digital photos can show marks that are virtually impossible to see without a glass, and that such marks can be exaggerated in the photo. Still if the coin looks the same in person as it does in the photo, it's not Mint State in my book.
IMO, the Gobrecht being discussed is a technically finer coin and thus, in line with current grading standards, is accurately labeled as 'PQ' by the seller.
In times past, such marks were the hallmarks of an impaired Proof if they were really obvious when the coin was viewed in person.
We have been in a strong market, and historically the services have gotten very soft in their grading when prices are going great guns. I’ve seen this as I have gone on buying trips over the past year.
This stuff is being overgraded, and perhaps with the next downturn the services will tighten up again. BUT this is also what the prices on the Blue Sheet between PCGS and NGC coins have come closer together. PCGS no long holds the edge in virtually every category. In the 19th century silver categories, NGC has stopped getting fooled by AT while PCGS has lowered their standards.
Not that I disagree that standards are slowly changing.