<< <i>But there were many, many coins with this same toning. >>
I wouldn't say the same, but the Vermeule coins are similar. Especially the color but not the pattern. This 68 has a very heavy toning and pattern, not delicate like the Vermeule coins. Look at the color plates, they are not the same.
<< <i> You stated a position that perhaps all these coins are 'done' by the same person. >>
It was more of a question/statement to make the person I was responding to think about their statement that they "could tell from the pics that the tone is real."
<< <i>If they could, with the extraordinary premiums that type of color brings on the marketplace, I suspect we'd see a lot more than the few examples that come up every now and then. >>
Not if the surfaces had to be just right to take on this kind of color and toning. You can't take just any old MS/PF coin and get this kind of result. It takes a lot of searching to find the right coin. Plus, if the Dr. was to flood (if it was possible) the market with these coins, what would happen to the premiums or would they then be recognizable?
I've probably said too much already. I just don't like it when people (not you TDN) make point blank statements without having all the facts. Maybe the color is real, maybe not? I think not, but that's my opinion. If the toning is not real, who cares, it's still a beautiful coin and very desirable.
<< <i>Why would that toning pattern only show up on super grade coins? Is it scared of marks? >>
I found this statement quite revealing....think about it
Elwood, Are you a coin doctor? Did you work on that coin? If not, how do you have all the facts? How can you make a point blank statement saying you think the tone is not real tone? My statement is based on actually seeing, in hand, other coins that have that type of tone. Your opinion seems to be based on looking at that one picture.
<< <i>How can you make a point blank statement saying you think the tone is not real tone? >>
I said:
<< <i>Maybe the color is real, maybe not? I think not, but that's my opinion. If the toning is not real, who cares, it's still a beautiful coin and very desirable. >>
It looks exactly like the work of a doctor I know. Next time I see him I'll be sure to ask if he did it.
<< <i>My statement is based on actually seeing, in hand, other coins that have that type of tone. >>
So you haven't seen this coin in person either.
<< <i>Your opinion seems to be based on looking at that one picture. >>
My opinion is based upon knowing a couple coin doctors and seeing a coin before and after it has been done. So, I know what their work looks like and can usually identify who has done the work. I can identify three different coin doctors work when I see it. Make that 4 I just remembered someone elses work I can identify. My opinion is also based upon the fact that I have attended almost every major auction and coin show over the last five years. Veiwing almost ever coin in every major auction and discussing questionable coins with experts in the numismatic field. And discussing particular coins in auction with the people that made those coins. I've seen them bring 3, 4 ,5 times bid. Bustman, You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe. They both are just opinions. I was just trying to educate other forum members, that this type of toning can and is being done. Some is artificial and some is just a matter of accelerating the toning process. The point is to make it look so real that people and graders won't suspect that it's not natural. I didn't mean to offend you!! Please read the little that I have posted, with an open mind, and try to learn from it.
Sorry for hijacking the thread!! Half Dimes are very rare and undervalued considering how rare they are. As are most Seated Half Dimes, Dimes and Quarters. I was sitting in an auction recently and discussing the overall market with another dealer. We started to discuss Half Dimes and his comment was when people start chasing Half Dimes and their value starts to go up, be careful, we may be near a peak of the market. Because Half Dimes are usually the last series in a bull market to see serious advances in value.
his comment was when people start chasing Half Dimes and their value starts to go up, be careful, we may be near a peak of the market. Because Half Dimes are usually the last series in a bull market to see serious advances in value.
My only point was that of Elwoods, that you cant necessarily tell by a picture 100% of the time.
I personally would guess that the coin is fine, however, my new question is to Elwood...
If you know these coin doctors, and know their work, why havent you exposed them? They are a bane on the hobby and yet your post seems to suggest that you know them well but are silent...
<< <i>My only point was that of Elwoods, that you cant necessarily tell by a picture 100% of the time. >>
I will add that you can't necessarily tell 100% even if you have the coin in hand.
<< <i>If you know these coin doctors, and know their work, why havent you exposed them? They are a bane on the hobby and yet your post seems to suggest that you know them well but are silent... >>
Boy, that's a tough question. One, it's almost impossible to PROVE who exactly did the work. Unless you were to run a sting and get it on tape, video or audio. Two, if nothing can be done about them, it is up to collectors to learn how to identify AT. Three, the good ones are not actually damaging the coin, they just accelerate the natural toning process. Toning is toning, does it matter if it takes 100 years or a day, week or month? Four, The ones I know are not physically damaging the coin-Stripping, lasering, smoothing or tooling. Five, some are taking ugly coins and making them beautiful-is that a bad thing? Six, is it my job to expose them or the certification companies who holder these coins responsibility? Seven, I would actually love to have some of these coins in my own collection. Take the Seated Half in question, IF it is AT, look at the replies to this thread at how beautiful people think the coin is. Which it is. Eight, NGC is cleaning and holdering coins legally, calling it conservation. Nine, these doctors are known to much more influencial people in the industry than myself, people who could maybe do something about it. I'm a nobody. Ten, why would I want to spend my money to defend myself or to go after these guys. What needs to be done is to set-up a fund of some kind to finance a project like that. No one individual is going to open themselves up to the liability of going after them.
Two other things, I'm talking about a few that are the best, they are artists. Not about guys that smoke, blow torch or paint crap all over coin to hide major problems. What is a much larger concern to me are people buying choice original slider coins, especially early gold, where they dip, putty and laser the coins to get them in unc holders. Now that is a serious issue.
Here's my favorite half dime in my type set. Not sure about undervalued, but I felt what I paid for it was pretty fair ($300), and even six months later I don't feel any remorse.... unloike some of my other purchases
The Vermeulle proofs were extremely nice. The 1869 half looked 10x better in person than the color plate showed. Vermeulle's proofs looked unlike Benson's (secondary toning on many) and different from many of the Kaufman proofs (sort of dullish on the mirrors). The Vermeulle coins were of exceptional quality for the most part. I'd kill to get that 1869 half but Laura buried it with a client who bought all the 1869 proofs one by one to remake the set. The 1869 silver dollar was darn nice too. The 1869 proof half made this 1868 look pale in comparison from an eye appeal standpoint.
Comments
so there are some small coins out there where the eye appeal is as big or bigger than a silver dollar sized coin
michael
<< <i>But there were many, many coins with this same toning. >>
I wouldn't say the same, but the Vermeule coins are similar. Especially the color but not the pattern. This 68 has a very heavy toning and pattern, not delicate like the Vermeule coins. Look at the color plates, they are not the same.
<< <i> You stated a position that perhaps all these coins are 'done' by the same person. >>
It was more of a question/statement to make the person I was responding to think about their statement that they "could tell from the pics that the tone is real."
<< <i>If they could, with the extraordinary premiums that type of color brings on the marketplace, I suspect we'd see a lot more than the few examples that come up every now and then. >>
Not if the surfaces had to be just right to take on this kind of color and toning. You can't take just any old MS/PF coin and get this kind of result. It takes a lot of searching to find the right coin. Plus, if the Dr. was to flood (if it was possible) the market with these coins, what would happen to the premiums or would they then be recognizable?
I've probably said too much already. I just don't like it when people (not you TDN) make point blank statements without having all the facts.
Maybe the color is real, maybe not? I think not, but that's my opinion. If the toning is not real, who cares, it's still a beautiful coin and very desirable.
<< <i>Why would that toning pattern only show up on super grade coins? Is it scared of marks? >>
I found this statement quite revealing....think about it
Are you a coin doctor? Did you work on that coin? If not, how do you have all the facts? How can you make a point blank statement saying you think the tone is not real tone?
My statement is based on actually seeing, in hand, other coins that have that type of tone.
Your opinion seems to be based on looking at that one picture.
<< <i>Are you a coin doctor? >>
No
<< <i>Did you work on that coin? >>
No
<< <i>How can you make a point blank statement saying you think the tone is not real tone? >>
I said:
<< <i>Maybe the color is real, maybe not? I think not, but that's my opinion. If the toning is not real, who cares, it's still a beautiful coin and very desirable. >>
It looks exactly like the work of a doctor I know. Next time I see him I'll be sure to ask if he did it.
<< <i>My statement is based on actually seeing, in hand, other coins that have that type of tone. >>
So you haven't seen this coin in person either.
<< <i>Your opinion seems to be based on looking at that one picture. >>
My opinion is based upon knowing a couple coin doctors and seeing a coin before and after it has been done. So, I know what their work looks like and can usually identify who has done the work. I can identify three different coin doctors work when I see it. Make that 4 I just remembered someone elses work I can identify. My opinion is also based upon the fact that I have attended almost every major auction and coin show over the last five years. Veiwing almost ever coin in every major auction and discussing questionable coins with experts in the numismatic field. And discussing particular coins in auction with the people that made those coins. I've seen them bring 3, 4 ,5 times bid.
Bustman, You believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe. They both are just opinions. I was just trying to educate other forum members, that this type of toning can and is being done. Some is artificial and some is just a matter of accelerating the toning process. The point is to make it look so real that people and graders won't suspect that it's not natural. I didn't mean to offend you!! Please read the little that I have posted, with an open mind, and try to learn from it.
Half Dimes are very rare and undervalued considering how rare they are. As are most Seated Half Dimes, Dimes and Quarters. I was sitting in an auction recently and discussing the overall market with another dealer. We started to discuss Half Dimes and his comment was when people start chasing Half Dimes and their value starts to go up, be careful, we may be near a peak of the market. Because Half Dimes are usually the last series in a bull market to see serious advances in value.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
I personally would guess that the coin is fine, however, my new question is to Elwood...
If you know these coin doctors, and know their work, why havent you exposed them? They are a bane on the hobby and yet your post seems to suggest that you know them well but are silent...
Why?
Vr.,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>My only point was that of Elwoods, that you cant necessarily tell by a picture 100% of the time. >>
I will add that you can't necessarily tell 100% even if you have the coin in hand.
<< <i>If you know these coin doctors, and know their work, why havent you exposed them? They are a bane on the hobby and yet your post seems to suggest that you know them well but are silent... >>
Boy, that's a tough question.
One, it's almost impossible to PROVE who exactly did the work. Unless you were to run a sting and get it on tape, video or audio.
Two, if nothing can be done about them, it is up to collectors to learn how to identify AT.
Three, the good ones are not actually damaging the coin, they just accelerate the natural toning process. Toning is toning, does it matter if it takes 100 years or a day, week or month?
Four, The ones I know are not physically damaging the coin-Stripping, lasering, smoothing or tooling.
Five, some are taking ugly coins and making them beautiful-is that a bad thing?
Six, is it my job to expose them or the certification companies who holder these coins responsibility?
Seven, I would actually love to have some of these coins in my own collection. Take the Seated Half in question, IF it is AT, look at the replies to this thread at how beautiful people think the coin is. Which it is.
Eight, NGC is cleaning and holdering coins legally, calling it conservation.
Nine, these doctors are known to much more influencial people in the industry than myself, people who could maybe do something about it. I'm a nobody.
Ten, why would I want to spend my money to defend myself or to go after these guys. What needs to be done is to set-up a fund of some kind to finance a project like that. No one individual is going to open themselves up to the liability of going after them.
Glad you replied. It was a tough question, and I'm glad that you didnt think I was attacking you.
While I dont agree with all of your points, it was a very honest answer...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
What is a much larger concern to me are people buying choice original slider coins, especially early gold, where they dip, putty and laser the coins to get them in unc holders. Now that is a serious issue.
<< <i>Glad you replied. It was a tough question, and I'm glad that you didnt think I was attacking you. >>
Didn't even cross my mind
I forgot to mention money and how many are profiting from it. It's not just the doctors themselves.
The 1869 silver dollar was darn nice too. The 1869 proof half made this 1868 look pale in comparison from an eye appeal standpoint.
roadrunner