Ebay Fraud
ThatImpalaDude
Posts: 99
I just saw this article on the msnbc site and thought it might interest some board members. Not directly coin related but certainly related indirectly.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6030048
Steve
PS I don't know how to create a link that you can point and click on, so you may have to enter this web address in your browser. Sorry for my ignorance.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6030048
Steve
PS I don't know how to create a link that you can point and click on, so you may have to enter this web address in your browser. Sorry for my ignorance.
0
Comments
Dang, ya beat me to it!
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Dave
Very true. Things to that effect have been stated here.
But according to court papers, Tiffany claims eBay has elevated counterfeit items to its home page for spotlight treatment -- as potential Mother's Day gifts, for example. The auction site also pushes special advertisements out to Yahoo and Google which hawk Tiffany items that ultimately prove to be fakes. That's directly promoting fraud, Tiffany says.
I'm betting a class action suit is only a matter of time.
JMO of course.
Dennis
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Most of us know how to detect fradulent or unsavory coin auctions on eBay. Now, just imagine if eBay offered you a full time job to spot check auctions all day long. That's right; get paid 8 hours per day to browse through the coin auctions, just looking for counterfeits or mis-represented coins. Now imagine 5 coin specialists perusing the various coin categories. eBay could easily afford such a staff, for each collectible and electronics area on eBay. They wouldn't catch everyone, but it would definitely clean things at eBay. My belief is that more legitimate people would use eBay if the fraud could be monitored and controlled. Some good publicity about how eBay has cleaned things up would lure new consumers to trade at the site. That new business could easily cover the cost of monitoring auctions and then some.
Take it a step further: have the ebay coin specialists email certain sellers that don't cross the line of fraud, but are real close. Let them know that they are being watched.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Jerry
If I rent out space to a business and they proceed to rip off their customers (fakes, underhanded sales tactics etc.) how can I be held accountable for that? It's the people listing the auctions that are committing the crime not eBay IMO.
Joe.
Your statement "It's the people listing the auctions that are committing the crime not eBay IMO" makes too much sense to be considered seriously here!
Dave
I do NOT think that eBay should be held accountable for the fraud. However, I do think that they should do more to clean up THEIR auction site. If I owned a major auction venue like eBay, I would do my best to keep out the trash. The fraudulent sellers on eBay are damaging eBay's reputation.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Joe.
Jerry
They make money off of these guns --- knowing full well they are very dangerous.
Dave
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I was high bidder on Brittany Spear's chewing gum. I think it's fake. So I just decided to chew it.
Dave
You get sued if you don't let someone sell fakes, you get sued if you do let them sell fakes.
A criminal has all the rights, presumed innocence, your only guilty if you are found guilty in a court of law.
Then you get to sue everyone who accused you for defamation of character and lost business, yada, yada, yada.
I had to risk getting the boot, directly violating eBay rules and regulations by emailing every last bidder for the entire 10 day period. I even told eBay, straight up, that if they did nothing about it, to protect innocent people, that I would and I DID and they never did anything to me knowing full well that it was me sabotaging this guy's auction!
If nobody polices eBay it will only get worse and worse. Hell, I even inquired/ offered OUR services to police auctions since we do it anyway and they showed no interest in living up to this bogus, s0-called pact with the ANA that is now right at the end of the "Sell" routine. I suppose that's really supposed to frighten off the bad guys.
Ebay can be held accountable because as Tiffanys has stated, ebay is making profit off the fraud and elevating fradulant auctions to the front page featured adds. Counterfiting and selling trademarked items is illegal is it not?
Smith and Wesson should be responsible for the many deaths caused by their products.
I think you are comparing apples to oranges. I can see how you can make that comparison, but I would venture to say that yes most people know that guns are dangerous. However, many people don't know that they are being frauded when they make purchases on ebay.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Incorrect. Only the dummies. Unfortunately, eBay, the government, whoever can't protect them from themselves.
Dave
The operators collect a fee from the seller for space, whether real or cyber, and often a percentage of sales. Now, the rampant "sue everyone and anyone"
attitude starts to affect charitable organizations and local municipalities.
Would this make the operator of the event liable for fraud because some smuck(s) didn't know the item(s) were bogus and spent good money to aquire?
Maybe we can apply this precedent to the newspapers that offer "For Sale" listings? Does listing the item infer complicity in fraud cases?
How far does this "sue someone else for my own stupidity", go?
My rant for the night.
Bob
eBay.
Fraud.
Newspaper classifieds run ads all the time for things for sale. People place those ads and decide what goes in them....not the paper. Can we hold the newspaper liable because the person that placed the ad was a criminal? I don't think so.
Excellent analogy...IMO
My Auctions
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
I agree that it would be impossible for Ebay to stop ALL fraudulent transactions, but they could easily prevent the most batant ones.
IMO, the only answer is consumer education. Do you think these coin scammers would make much profit if bidders had spent any reasonable amount of time reading this forum? At the very least Ebay could "open up" their own forums and allow the free exchange of information without users having to worry about being NARU'd for saying the wrong thing.
--- WingNut
I think there's a big difference and that is at a flea market or street fair, or newspaper add, the buyer gets to see and hold the item bieng sold before buying.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
<< <i>That's right; get paid 8 hours per day to browse through the coin auctions, just looking for counterfeits or mis-represented coins. Now imagine 5 coin specialists perusing the various coin categories. eBay could easily afford such a staff, for each collectible and electronics area on eBay. >>
Let's see, at any time there are 60 to 70 thousand coin auctions going on eBay so about 10,000 new auctions each day or 2,000 auctions per reviewer for 8 hrs a day that comes to reviewing 4 auctions per minute. I think you are going to need more like 30 - 40 coin specialists to get it down to a reasonable rate. And then you need to do the same for each other collectible catagory. And what do you do about those items that aren't easily identifiable from the "excellent" photos most auctions have?
No, in order to protect themselves eBay will have to require all items to be auctioned to be sent to them for physical examination by the various experts. (emember they can't afford to close down auctions of real items in error because then they will be open to lawsuits from THEM!) So if you want to sel your coins on eBay you'll have to send them in, wait six months for them to work their way up through the backlog, get listed with the eBay experts opinion, not your description because eBay has to protect themselves from your possibly exagerated description, and then pay eBay their new MUCH higher rates for this priviledge.
If Tiffany wins this suit I think it will mark the end of eBay, and probably all other online auction companies..
Conder, they could not possibly police every auction, but they could do spot checks. Sorry that I did not clarify that point. A fraudulent seller who lists 10 coins per week consistently would eventually get caught and then naru'ed. Once a specialist found one fishy auction, they could investigate his past and current auctions.
If Tiffany wins this suit I think it will mark the end of eBay, and probably all other online auction companies..
The end of eBay will never happen. Perhaps they may change ownership, name, structure, etc., but they will never go away.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
While we all may agree on auctions that are outright frauds there are many others (many of which become thread topics) that are not so obvious or are obviously NOT frauds but the buyer just had unrealistic expectations.
I think for online auctions you use the protections that are available if you can, mixed with a little "common sense" and take responsibility for your own actions.
I think it is highly unrealistic that eBay could possibly monitor even a fraction of their auctions.
As someone mentioned earlier, if eBay does have to take responsibility you might as well close eBay.
Joe.
<< <i>However, many people don't know that they are being frauded when they make purchases on ebay.
Incorrect. Only the dummies. Unfortunately, eBay, the government, whoever can't protect them from themselves.
Dave >>
Maybe the solution is for eBay to display a banner over top of everyone's "My eBay" CAUTION: SOME OF THE AUCTIONS ARE OUTRIGHT FRAUD. ENTER A BID AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Jerry
Well, eBay does not exactly use those words but this appears on the submit bid page and to me it means the same thing (especially that last sentence):
Your bid is a contract - Place a bid only if you're serious about buying the item. If you are the winning bidder, you will enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item from the seller. You should contact the seller to resolve any questions before bidding.
Seller assumes all responsibility for listing this item.
Joe.
How about on the home page? Large enough for all to see.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
<< <i>How about on the home page? Large enough for all to see. >>
Better to make it on ALL pages or at least all pages seen when entering a bid.
Just on the home page is no good. I almsot NEVER go to the home page. I have various pages bookmarked and go straight to them. The only time I ever go to the home page is when I am searching for something off the wall in an area I've never been in. Such as when my sister-in-law asked for some vintage victorian clothing. I don't know what catagory to use so I jump to the home page and enter my search there so it does all of them. (I could do the same from one of my bookmarked search pages as well, so I really don't ever have to go to the home page.)
The understatement of the year, Joe!!!
Luckily, most people have common sense, which is exactly why ebay is such a GREAT SUCCESS. It's self-policed to a large extent.
What about the ones without common sense? Oh well, life isn't fair....
Dave
It seems to me the concept of "buyer beware" is dead. No longer do you need to know what you are buying. You should let someone else do the research for you. If I go to a garage sale and buy something of value, I'm gonna know something about it. If I do gamble and it turns out to be fake or worthless, I certainly am not holding the seller responsible.
The only way ebay "knows" of a fraud is when someone notifies them. Who exactly do they trust, the seller or Joe Shmoe buyer that sent an email? At least in our industry, they turn to ANA for help. Who can they turn to in other indutries like Tiffany?
<< <i>Fraud. Yes!
I was high bidder on Brittany Spear's chewing gum. I think it's fake. So I just decided to chew it.
Dave >>
You only got the chewing gum?? I was high bidder on her "captured fart in a box" until ebay finally shut it down. Can you just imagine the final price on that one!
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>If I rent out space to a business and they proceed to rip off their customers (fakes, underhanded sales tactics etc.) how can I be held accountable for that? It's the people listing the auctions that are committing the crime not eBay IMO. >>
UncleJoe, in your scenerio, if you have knowledge of their actions after you rent them the space and do nothing about it, it is considered aiding and abetting and illegal. It becomes your responsibility in the eyes of the legal system to do as much as you can to get them to cease and desist---otherwise, you're guilty by association/complacency.
Bob, the newspaper analogy only works to a small extent. The basic difference here is that anything presented in a newspapers want ads can be checked out in person, if you're interested in said item(s). This is assuming we are talking about your local edition and can call to ask for further info and/or set up a time to go across town to see it in person. This simple action available to prospective buyers negates the probability of any attempt to defraud by misrepresenting something in the ads.
If eBay auctions could be regionalized by a search for items being sold in your home town, then the analogy would work, because you have the obligation and opportunity to view it/them in person. No one would expect a bidder/buyer to drive 300 miles or fly 3000 miles just to verify the authenticity for anything under a couple hundred bucks. Prudent---maybe, but the balance between the cost of the item and the amount of time and money required to go see it in person has to be considered.
JMHO