Warrants??? -- the FBI doesn't need no stinkn' warrants!
Patriot Act Section 215 allows "sneak and peek" searches.
Here's a link reviewing Section 215 but it is a year old so there might have been some changes made to the scope of "sneak and peeks" since September 2003.
I'm not a Consititutional lawyer so I can't help with any changes to the law recently.
For those not interesting in clicking on the link here's what 215 basically says --
Under Section 215, these searches and seizures can occur not only without notice to the target, but also without a warrant, without a criminal subpoena, and without any showing of probable cause that a crime has been committed.
What types of records come within Section 215? They may be held by libraries, booksellers, doctors, universities, Internet Service providers, and other public entities and private sector businesses. They may consist of records, books, papers, or other personal data and property.
Well, as usual the law does not say what some purport. Please tell me where in section 215 the FBI can break into your safe deposit box without a warrant signed by a judge:
<< <i>Eric -- go to Findlaw and do a little research it should be easy, but for now I gotta go. I'll try to post one later.
Michael >>
I found the relevant section, and at least from my legal understanding it is not as you and a few others described. Please tell us how the FBI can break into your bank box without a court order. As far as I can tell from the language of the section, they must get an order signed by a judge.
Eric -- unfortunately this issue is far more complicated than a message board will allow. You have to understand the difference between a "warrant" and an "order" and what is Consitutitionally required to secure both.
To help you understand here's a link defining Warrants.
A greatly simplified explanation is as follows. A Court Order is not as detailed as a Warrant and much easier to secure from a Judge or Magistrate. Further warrants require probable cause and are very specific. If a police officer wants a warrant to search for drugs in your safety deposit box, then the warrant will be limited to that alone. While a Court Order might allow him to search for anything. That's the essence of "sneak and peek" to see if anything is their that might incriminate someone of a crime no real probable cause is needed. Historically, US Citizens have been afforded a sense of privacy and to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures -- here's a link to the legal history of The Fourth Amendment
So while a Judge or Magistrate might still take a look at what the police/FBI want, the level of protection is much diminished by Section 215.
I know this is extremely complicated. A law student will usually spend weeks studying the Fourth Amendment and a Constitutional lawyer years trying to really understand it. It ain't easy.
Michael
Edited to add: While I never said this happens, I can invision how it could happen. And remember laws are not black and white, but merely shades of gray. All laws are subject to interpretation, that's exactly why we have a judicial system. Take murder for example, you cannot not legally kill someone but there are exceptions to this very black and white rule, you may to defend yourself.
Thought I'd weigh in with my first post here...for what it's worth...
One option that I have used is to find a gun safe that is fire rated. They are too heavy to walk off with, and offer some fire protection. I understand the possibility of someone knowing it's there, but no one has addressed the several trips back and forth from the bank and your home while carrying valuable coins. I would think that exposure is much more dangerous than leaving the coins at home behind closed doors. And most people who see you carry a large gun safe in your home would expect you to be keeping...guns...in it. Oh...and gun safes are usually cheaper than their smaller counterparts. Maybe not as good in the fire rating, but depending on where you place it, the heat to length of time ratio may not be an issue. (ie...corner of a basemet)
Also, regarding insurance, most companies that insure your home will offer scheduled coin coverage for your collection. You would just need to provide some sort of inventory and maybe some proof of value for some of the higher $$ items.
Thanks for some wonderful discussion here (and some not too wonderful but humorous discussion, too!)
Remember the Golden Rule....He Who Has The Gold Makes The Rule!
My two cents on the issue...I started with a decent safe...about 150 pounds...well hidden...and used it until I woke up one night thinking about how "difficult" it would be to rob. It's KID'S PLAY!! Don't fool yourself.
-Any strong burgler can simply pick it up and haul it out. This isn't a chore...it's his JOB.
-If it's bolted, any burgler with knowledgeable intent can easily drill or crack the lock. I've seen it done in salvage work and it's like opening a cigar box. Remember the movie THIEF with James Caan? Big box...POP!
-OK, the burglar doesn't have tools with him...now we get into bad scenarios...he returns with help. Remember the line "this place I know has a safe loaded with money"? IN COLD BLOOD, and dozens of movies afterwards!! This time they are armed...ready to use unfriendly coersion to get you to open the box if necessary. I have "deterrents" as many do, but if someone has my 8 year old daughter in his arms I'm cooked. They get the stuff.
-Dogs are good, but so are steering wheel locks. But a good team can deal with both...they are NOT humane. Doggies are not man's best friend, to THEM.
-Therefore no matter how BIG, how HEAVY, how well HIDDEN, how well PROTECTED...if they know what they are looking for, or simply find it, you LOSE EVERYTHING!
I keep papers in my safe now.
Safe Deposit boxes are in vaults with multi thousand pound doors and concrete encased walls. They are not insured by the bank, but they are a hell of a lot safer and better protected that home "bunker" we live in. Yeah, we take the risk of an infernal fire, or a vault robbery, but these are so rare and unlikely that the odds are like a million to one.
We do like to look at our stuff...and it's not always convenient to go to the bank to get to our coins, but ask yourself what the worst case scenario is with home storage. YOU LOSE EVERYTHING. I'll take the drive to the bank!!
BTW, the idea of having really nice pictures on your computer is remarkably satisfying...I do, and I look at them all the time. As a result I know every nook and cranny of every coin...It really is a "decent" alternative concession. The cost of being wrong is just too great. And I have been one of the great risk-taker of all times. Some risks simply are just not worth the downside.
As for the Feds searching boxes, what's the worry? First of all, it's ridiculously remote that it would EVER happen. Secondly, unless you stole the stuff or are holding a half-mil. of drug money, what if they did?? You own the coins and you are legal. It's a non-issue. That's my read on the subject.
Hmmm I guess I should go into our tiny bank and ask if they have safety deposit boxes. Not many big banks up this way and our bank is on the small side. Wouldn't hurt to find out
Thanks Rob. It's the result of finally resolving the conflict I had with the issue. I want so bad to look at my stuff, but the reality of losing them is beyond comprehension. Others should consider the same. I enjoy my Saturday visits to the "penitentiary" to visit my "LADIES". It's part of my Saturday morning ritual!
Interesting reading concerning section 215 of the Patriot Act. The FBI can have your box drilled without your knowledge simply by telling the bank manager to do it. If they suspect that what they find indicates criminal activity on your part, they will likely confiscate the "offending" items and bring charges against you. Even if they don't charge you with anything, you'd never know the box was drilled until the next time you tried to access it and your key no longer fit. If you leave your items in the bank for long periods without checking on it, months or even years could pass before you knew something was wrong because the bank employees would be obligated to keep quiet about it. Nope, I'll keep my valuables at home and out of the hands of nosy government agents.
WHY? Unless you are hiding something, A) they aren't going to accidentally 'drill your box' (good pun) and they aren't going to find anything that you have to worry about. Sorry, sliderider, but it wreaks of PARANOIA!!
I don't think a gun safe is a deterrent to crime. I think it is a big "Hey! Rob this house!" sign just like any other safe. It would be easy for a gun safe to have $5000 in guns stored inside it.
I wish I could go every Sat AM. I have two small children and often work on Sat AM. I do get to the box during the week once per month. I do keep a few coins at home, usually those that are in transition to becoming mine or becoming someone else's, that are separately insured, in a 250 lb. safe that is bolted to the floor in an inconspicuous place.
Again, great post! I am going to bookmark it for future entertainment!
Well people not knowing you have coins seems to work the best. But it is difficult to not have the knowledge leak out. Otherwise the bank safety deposit boxes are best. The fewer at home the better it is. Keeping coins at home is always a risk. I remember that many years ago, one of the big multi-millionare collectors had a sizeable portion of their collection stolen from their mansion. Now they had security guards, security alarm systems, and everything. So if a thief wants it, it is going to be really hard to stop them.
Hummm. . . maybe getting a bunch of gold plated replica pewter coins cheap and putting them in coin world slabs would work for the home safe. A bunch of replica trade dollars would go over well too. Heck even engrave your driver's license number (real small or tiny) on the coins in a not too conspicuous place too, so the police can trace them back. Now the thieves have something to steal and the police have something to show ownership too. Thus the only worry left is if the thieves don't want to leave witnesses.
I'd like to add a little here. I work security for a large financial institution. The types of security advancements available today are tremendous. The security that is in use in the coin business is a joke. Even at a clothing store they have devices attached to a 15 buck skirt so it won't walk away yet a dealer can have a hundred coins worth 1000s each loose in a case at a show.
Tracking is avaiable for autos, even kids watches can now be bought for a few bucks with Global Tracking devices, why not a slab with a GPS in it that can be kept in the box in the safe. I mentioned before about motion sensors for cases with alarms and the concern was that they would go off at a show.
Disneyland has facial recognition software yet any felon can walk into a coin show unnoticed.
The coin business needs some serious security advice and needs to get with some of the gadgets available to other industries.
<< <i>Eric -- unfortunately this issue is far more complicated than a message board will allow. You have to understand the difference between a "warrant" and an "order" and what is Consitutitionally required to secure both.
To help you understand here's a link defining Warrants.
A greatly simplified explanation is as follows. A Court Order is not as detailed as a Warrant and much easier to secure from a Judge or Magistrate. Further warrants require probable cause and are very specific. If a police officer wants a warrant to search for drugs in your safety deposit box, then the warrant will be limited to that alone. While a Court Order might allow him to search for anything. That's the essence of "sneak and peek" to see if anything is their that might incriminate someone of a crime no real probable cause is needed. Historically, US Citizens have been afforded a sense of privacy and to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures -- here's a link to the legal history of The Fourth Amendment
So while a Judge or Magistrate might still take a look at what the police/FBI want, the level of protection is much diminished by Section 215.
I know this is extremely complicated. A law student will usually spend weeks studying the Fourth Amendment and a Constitutional lawyer years trying to really understand it. It ain't easy.
Michael
Edited to add: While I never said this happens, I can invision how it could happen. And remember laws are not black and white, but merely shades of gray. All laws are subject to interpretation, that's exactly why we have a judicial system. Take murder for example, you cannot not legally kill someone but there are exceptions to this very black and white rule, you may to defend yourself. >>
Michael, I agree, I really don't want to get into a constitutional law debate here. But I will say that there are people other than attorneys who have training in various aspects of law, and to assume that someone is ignorant of the law because they are not an attorney is somewhat presumptuous.
Back to the issue at hand. The point of this thread was that somehow section 215 allowed the FBI to walk into a bank, drill your box, and take the contents. This is simply not true when you read the text of the actual law. How convenient that in the article you linked, which was legal commentary, nowhere did they quote the actual law, they used very liberal legal interpretations. I believe this to be a disservice and danger to many collectors here, some who have already said they are keeping all their valuables at home rather than store them in a safe deposit box, where the big, bad G men might confiscate them. Reading the law, this is utter nonsense. The law is written to target those who might be up to no good, such as having a suspicious interest in Boeing 747 construction, flight plans, and the like. This fear mongering that average John Q. Collector is going to have his coin collection confiscated by the FBI is ridiculous.
For those of you following along here, please take my advice. Do not keep all your coins at home. Do not make it widely known in your community that you are a coin collector. If possible, keep your valuables in several different locations away from home. I've always been a firm believer of not keeping all my eggs in one basket. You are much more likely to lose your coins if you keep them at home due to a home invasion than to lose them to a Patriot Act confiscation if you keep them in a safe deposit box.
Eric -- I never advocated where someone should or shouldn't keep their coins. Safety deposit box, home safe, shoe box in the corner of their closet, I could really careless.
And I also never said that if you keep your coins in a safety deposit box the FBI will confiscate them. There was a discussion as to whether there was a law forbidding keeping cash in a safety deposit box. I linked Section 215 as a possible explanation of where this rumor might have started. Banks would rather not police safety deposit boxes as required in 215 in regards to cash transactions so the banking industry might have develop a rule of thumb and came up with the whole "no cash" in safety deposit. Of course that is supposition on my part.
The law is written to target those who might be up to no good
A law is like a child. You raise him you teach him and then you let him out into the world to see how he does. You place too much blind faith that this law couldn't be used for nefarious purposes against innocent citizens. How the courts will interpret the Patriot Act and how the law is finally applied can and often is much different than the intent of it's authors.
And as for this statement --
But I will say that there are people other than attorneys who have training in various aspects of law, and to assume that someone is ignorant of the law because they are not an attorney is somewhat presumptuous.
I find it much more presumptuous that you believe that someone without formal schooling and a career devoted to the complexities of Consitutional law could possible understand all the issues involved with the Patriot Act and the Fourth Amendment. It took 200 years to develop this case law, it requires a lifetime of experience just to begin to see the subtle nuisances of its application. Which neither I nor you possess.
Michael...all legality aside, so what? What if they did by error(?) drill your box. Do you have anything to hide? If all you have is legal coins, then someone screwed up and there's no harm, other than your outrage. These are F*ed up times we live in. There are people among us who want us dead, and will think nothing of walking into MY daughter's 3rd grade class and kill all the innocent kids in the name of their warped version of "religion". The Patriot act is here to be EXTRA alert and we as Americans must accept that our self-preservation has a cost. Freedom is not free anymore.
Israel has been doing this for over 30 years now. I saw an interview with the Security Chief of the Tel Aviv airport. They screen everybody many times over and openly profile people. The Americal reporter asked hin, "In the US there are cries of profiling being invasive and politically incorrect..what do you say to that?" His response, "Words and labels we are not worried about...BOMBS we are!" Doesn't that kind of sum up the questionability of these Acts? Life first, work out the fairness later.
I'd prefer death over a lack of freedom, but someone else in our nation's heritage put it more much eloquently than I ever could.
Freedom has always come with a price. Many have given their blood and their lives to preserve that freedom. We do them a great injustice now to stain their memories by allowing our rights to be curtailed and in some instances abolished beause of fear. But then again, another great historical figure already touched on the subject of fear.
The world has been and will always be a dangerous place. Little can be done to make it safer. The question is what price are you willing to pay for it to be safer? Obviously you are content with giving up some of your freedoms for a perceived sense of safety. Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
Perhaps a change in the United State's foreign policy and how it treats certain countries might be a better place to begin than redrafting the Constitution as a way to insure our long term safety. And finally, if you prefer the system Israel has implemented, move there. I'm sure you'll be much safer from terrorists.
What are the various freedoms you've been stripped of by the government, FrattLaw? I mean to say, specific examples which have led you to believe soon you'll be "disappeared." By all means, stick to your guns and your opinions, though in my opinion your foil hat is growing a mite tight.
I personally find myself able to be "more aware" of the dangers I face in the world, and yet, I harbor no peculiar fear of the system of government I live under. Some other folks seem unable, or perhaps more likely, unwilling, to differentiate among these. Perhaps they're really, really devoted X-Files fans. So far as how the US makes policy in its treatment of other countries, I would hope anyone willing to throw dirt on our approach might also be fair-minded enough to realize that every other party/group/country on earth is very likely to deserve a dose from the same shovel, at one time or another.
<< <i>WHY? Unless you are hiding something, A) they aren't going to accidentally 'drill your box' (good pun) and they aren't going to find anything that you have to worry about. Sorry, sliderider, but it wreaks of PARANOIA!! >>
it's not my job to convince the government I'm not hiding anything.
I really hate that argument. Well you only have a problem with it if you have something to hide! Well lets all have cameras installed in public bathrooms, in the stalls even, hey you have nothing to hide right? Why stop there, lets put government monitored cameras in our homes so they can make sure were not breaking laws or conspiring to do so, besides you'd only have an objection to that if you have something to hide right?
sorry, I like my privacy, no matter what I do or don't have to hide.
If all you have is legal coins, then someone screwed up and there's no harm, other than your outrage.
Wrong. People are people. When Mr Little Bank Branch Manager and Mr FBI drill into my safe box and find $50,000, they're going to take it. There absolutely WILL be harm. Best case - I'll have to prove it is legal for me to possess that money.
So in that case, go with the odds. Are the odds better that the FBI is going to zero in on your safety box and find your 50g's? Or that in keeping it at home under your mattress, the word will leak out somehow and you'll get to have the fun of having a good ol' fashioned gun battle at 1 AM when three burglars come a-callin'? Whatever's most in your favor, go for it; fingers crossed!
Heh, I was going to say I'm amazed at how a thread can go from a question of a new member......
<< <i>How about some of your thoughts and dialogue on the topic of having an In home Safe versus Safety Deposit box in which to house all of our coins[/Q
But as always the case laws the constitution bla bla come into a simple question. I'm scared of everything, OK back inside my bubble now.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
For those who dont believe we've lost any freedoms. Remember the part about "shall not be deprived of rights or property without due process of law" or Innocent until PROVEN guilty
Now they can sieze your car, cash etc and claim it was involved in a drug deal and YOU have to hire a lawyer, file a court case and PROVE you WEREN't guilty. If you're poor and can't afford a fight, you just lose it. Then the locals who seized it get to keep it. BAD LAW
Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
That's a real beauty. I How a sane person can compare the "threat" of a drunk griver or falling down stairs with a bomb with 3 inch nails strapped to a jihadist exploding in a mall or a college football game is beyond belief. YOU don't live in fear of a terrorist's plot!!?? Yeah, I'm sure you don't...but damned be the agency that tries to protect us by looking for these animals. I'll bet an OSTRITCH is your favorite animal.
Listen, before you get on your inane liberal rant, I LOST 4 friends on 9/11. No tears, but don't preach your crap about your precious rights when I see 9 children whose fathers were incinerated. Maybe a little hard reality would take you off of your idealistic podium. Wake up and smell the people who want you and YOUR kids dead!!. They are beheading our construction workers who are in Iraq to help build their country. These are the people you want to protect? You should reevaluate the REAL issue. This isn't some political science issue in college. It's a mean ruthless enemy that we are trying to thwart...and you are whining like a baby about the FBI. I can't figure out if you are a follower of Timothy McVeigh or Al Franken.
I'm nauseaus from this issue. Go put your friggin' coins in your pantie drawer and keep your liberal self-serving agenda at home. You may think you have rights that are being trampled but you are an invitation for a tragedy. You are invading MY right to be protected as best as is possible in an overwhelming situation. I just hope you don't get what you want.
I'm done on this thread. You hit an nerve with me. Try dealing with death before you open your mouth. Shriek amongst yourselves.
<< <i> Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
That's a real beauty. I How a sane person can compare the "threat" of a drunk griver or falling down stairs with a bomb with 3 inch nails strapped to a jihadist exploding in a mall or a college football game is beyond belief. YOU don't live in fear of a terrorist's plot!!?? Yeah, I'm sure you don't...but damned be the agency that tries to protect us by looking for these animals. I'll bet an OSTRITCH is your favorite animal.
Listen, before you get on your inane liberal rant, I LOST 4 friends on 9/11. No tears, but don't preach your crap about your precious rights when I see 9 children whose fathers were incinerated. Maybe a little hard reality would take you off of your idealistic podium. Wake up and smell the people who want you and YOUR kids dead!!. They are beheading our construction workers who are in Iraq to help build their country. These are the people you want to protect? You should reevaluate the REAL issue. This isn't some political science issue in college. It's a mean ruthless enemy that we are trying to thwart...and you are whining like a baby about the FBI. I can't figure out if you are a follower of Timothy McVeigh or Al Franken.
I'm nauseaus from this issue. Go put your friggin' coins in your pantie drawer and keep your liberal self-serving agenda at home. You may think you have rights that are being trampled but you are an invitation for a tragedy. You are invading MY right to be protected as best as is possible in an overwhelming situation. I just hope you don't get what you want.
I'm done on this thread. You hit an nerve with me. Try dealing with death before you open your mouth. Shriek amongst yourselves.
JB >>
I wondered why I wasn't so outraged when I read this statement and went back and looked:
<< <i> The world has been and will always be a dangerous place. Little can be done to make it safer. The question is what price are you willing to pay for it to be safer? Obviously you are content with giving up some of your freedoms for a perceived sense of safety. Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot. >>
Indeed, this is in direct responce to one of your posts. The author made no value judgements, he merely made statements of fact. Which ever side of this issue we are on, we should be able to discuss it openly and without animosity. The author has also made many contributions to this thread.
Do we really need to banish all political discussion to the open forum until after the election?
You may be right, but having seen 4 families decimated and then reading an arrogantly written idealstic post hit a nerve. I am very aware of the law, and I didn;t start this. I thought I was originally making some helpful suggestions about putting coins where they would be safe. Then the thread got hijacked. I stand by my feelings though. I will not add anymore fuel to the fire. PEACE.
My two cents on the issue...I started with a decent safe...about 150 pounds...well hidden...and used it until I woke up one night thinking about how "difficult" it would be to rob. It's KID'S PLAY!! Don't fool yourself.
-Any strong burgler can simply pick it up and haul it out. This isn't a chore...it's his JOB.
-If it's bolted, any burgler with knowledgeable intent can easily drill or crack the lock. I've seen it done in salvage work and it's like opening a cigar box. Remember the movie THIEF with James Caan? Big box...POP!
-OK, the burglar doesn't have tools with him...now we get into bad scenarios...he returns with help. Remember the line "this place I know has a safe loaded with money"? IN COLD BLOOD, and dozens of movies afterwards!! This time they are armed...ready to use unfriendly coersion to get you to open the box if necessary. I have "deterrents" as many do, but if someone has my 8 year old daughter in his arms I'm cooked. They get the stuff.
-Dogs are good, but so are steering wheel locks. But a good team can deal with both...they are NOT humane. Doggies are not man's best friend, to THEM.
-Therefore no matter how BIG, how HEAVY, how well HIDDEN, how well PROTECTED...if they know what they are looking for, or simply find it, you LOSE EVERYTHING!
I keep papers in my safe now.
Safe Deposit boxes are in vaults with multi thousand pound doors and concrete encased walls. They are not insured by the bank, but they are a hell of a lot safer and better protected that home "bunker" we live in. Yeah, we take the risk of an infernal fire, or a vault robbery, but these are so rare and unlikely that the odds are like a million to one.
We do like to look at our stuff...and it's not always convenient to go to the bank to get to our coins, but ask yourself what the worst case scenario is with home storage. YOU LOSE EVERYTHING. I'll take the drive to the bank!!
BTW, the idea of having really nice pictures on your computer is remarkably satisfying...I do, and I look at them all the time. As a result I know every nook and cranny of every coin...It really is a "decent" alternative concession. The cost of being wrong is just too great. And I have been one of the great risk-taker of all times. Some risks simply are just not worth the downside.
As for the Feds searching boxes, what's the worry? First of all, it's ridiculously remote that it would EVER happen. Secondly, unless you stole the stuff or are holding a half-mil. of drug money, what if they did?? You own the coins and you are legal. It's a non-issue. That's my read on the subject.
Before you make assumptions that aren't true based upon your own narrow view of the situation, allow me to clarify somethings for you. I am a Republican, not a liberal, and I'm not a card carrying ACLU member. Just because I treasure a document that I feel is one of the greatest ever put forth by man in our limited time ruling the earth, doesn't mean I don't see the issues or feel the pain of death. I grew up in the shadow of the World Trade Center -- ask yourself how many people I knew that perished that day. However, I can look past the leaves on the trees and look at the much larger issue and not be blinded by fear. If you worry about terrorist's bombs and 3 inch nails I feel sorry for you, that's no way to live life. But make no mistake, circumventing the Constitution will not make you any safer. Just has this thread has indicated, if a thief wants your valuables, he's going to get them with enough persistence, if you keep them at home. We are a country of 275 million people with borders that are as pourous as cheesecloth. Undermining civil liberties will not change that fact and will not make us any safer. If your jihad terrorist wants to bomb your college football game on a cool October Saturday morning, not much can be done to stop him, unless of course we become a police state like Israel.
You fear death, which is healthy. I do not. I have faced my own death at least 4 times in my life. Matter of fact, today is the 1 year anniversary of my most recent heart attack. Further, I lost 75% of my family by the time I was 21. Death is something I am quite familiar with. Facing your own mortality wakes you up to some self evident truths about yourself. One of which is that time is limited and the freedom to do with that time as you see fit is the most precious. If I allowed emotion to control my behavior, I would cower in fear with just the act of opening my eyes every morning. I live with a greater than 90% chance that I will die with my next heart attack. You are obviously someone that is controlled by emotion. A few simple words that I had written on a message Board has shown that. You can be manipulated through your emotional weakness. To a certain extent, that is exactly what your jihad terrorist wants -- to strike fear into the hearts and minds of Americans. They are jealous of the freedom we have. The lifestyle we lead. The wealth this country has. Make no mistake, they would like nothing more than to see the United States and its citizens cower before their plots and bombs. People like you that are willing to make certain concessions of our civil liberties allow them victory.
They, as I, do not fear death. With that comes the power to control those that do. If they can alter our way of life, our thoughts, our collective destiny by killing thousands, they in essence have succeeded.
With due respect you do not know me. You are writing my bio based on a post. I'm NOT afraid of death(Mr. Death that is NOT an invitation!)...I am afraid of innocent civilians being killed in the name of hate. I am afraid of my precious 8 year old daughter being harmed. I would gladly have taken an automatic weapon and go to Afghanistan to defend our freedom and rights, if I wasn't about to turn 50!
But please don't analyze who I am and what motivates me on simplistic information. I believe in reality and sometimes principles have to be compromised. I am a Republican as well, yet I detest Ashcroft. But I see things as I interpret them my eyes.
Lets't just agree to disagree and let it rest. No more on this subject from me. I want to talk about coins. Expensive ones belong in banks.
I have a large shelved Gun Safe in a secure location in my home that holds the majority of my 'standard' coin collection, as well as some other valuables (Granted, I have ZERO guns in my home). The only items that exist in my safe deposit box are my higher valued gold/platinum coins and various financial documents. With that said, the only other person that actually knows that I even own a safe is my father, who helped me install it, and it will remain that way (Well, other than all of you now)
Buy a cheap Sentry safe, keep it in plain view, and fill it with a few pounds of wheaties and dateless Buffalos. Keep the good stuff in your desk drawer, so you can view it with ease. We'll show those thieves a thing or two!
I have two bank SD boxes in different suburbs next to the local police stations. A small home safe is only good to rotate a small part of your collection, you do not want to increase the possibility of putting your family in danger from a home invasion.
I checked out ANA insurance, too many exclusions such as natural disasters or a spouse that has gone berserk. By splitting my collection in two SD boxes, I am reducing the risk by 50%.
I would be very leary of using private, non-bank safe deposit boxes. A few years ago a Seattle bullion dealer, C. Rhyne, was selling bullion from customer's boxes. He was convicted and sent to jail, the customers were out of luck, some had $100,000+ in bullion that was looted from the man they bought it from. Another local elderly coin dealer with SD boxes has just died, I do not know what is happening to the customer's coins in the SD boxes, as he was a one man show, but I would be nervous if I had stored coins there.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Hey gang, I guess I'm the one who started this thread on Safety Deposit Boxes versus Safes at Home, and the one to blame. I didn't know it would deteriorate into Bombs on one's back, the FBI drilling holes in our Safety Deposit Boxes, my children being held hostage at gunpoint, etc. We've had enough dialogue on this one to write a book. Good ideas we can all chew on. (or thow up on, depending on your view)
But let's remember our poet lauriate Rodney King, "Hey man, can't we all just get along?"
Another good one is to state categorically, "Modern coins in hyper-grades are overpriced junk; the only real coins worth anything are over 50 years old"
Comments
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Patriot Act Section 215 allows "sneak and peek" searches.
Here's a link reviewing Section 215 but it is a year old so there might have been some changes made to the scope of "sneak and peeks" since September 2003.
I'm not a Consititutional lawyer so I can't help with any changes to the law recently.
For those not interesting in clicking on the link here's what 215 basically says --
Under Section 215, these searches and seizures can occur not only without notice to the target, but also without a warrant, without a criminal subpoena, and without any showing of probable cause that a crime has been committed.
What types of records come within Section 215? They may be held by libraries, booksellers, doctors, universities, Internet Service providers, and other public entities and private sector businesses. They may consist of records, books, papers, or other personal data and property.
Copyright By Anita Ramasastry courtesy of FindLaw
Michael
Michael
Section 215
<< <i>Eric -- go to Findlaw and do a little research it should be easy, but for now I gotta go. I'll try to post one later.
Michael >>
I found the relevant section, and at least from my legal understanding it is not as you and a few others described. Please tell us how the FBI can break into your bank box without a court order. As far as I can tell from the language of the section, they must get an order signed by a judge.
To help you understand here's a link defining Warrants.
A greatly simplified explanation is as follows. A Court Order is not as detailed as a Warrant and much easier to secure from a Judge or Magistrate. Further warrants require probable cause and are very specific. If a police officer wants a warrant to search for drugs in your safety deposit box, then the warrant will be limited to that alone. While a Court Order might allow him to search for anything. That's the essence of "sneak and peek" to see if anything is their that might incriminate someone of a crime no real probable cause is needed. Historically, US Citizens have been afforded a sense of privacy and to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures -- here's a link to the legal history of The Fourth Amendment
So while a Judge or Magistrate might still take a look at what the police/FBI want, the level of protection is much diminished by Section 215.
I know this is extremely complicated. A law student will usually spend weeks studying the Fourth Amendment and a Constitutional lawyer years trying to really understand it. It ain't easy.
Michael
Edited to add: While I never said this happens, I can invision how it could happen. And remember laws are not black and white, but merely shades of gray. All laws are subject to interpretation, that's exactly why we have a judicial system. Take murder for example, you cannot not legally kill someone but there are exceptions to this very black and white rule, you may to defend yourself.
One option that I have used is to find a gun safe that is fire rated. They are too heavy to walk off with, and offer some fire protection. I understand the possibility of someone knowing it's there, but no one has addressed the several trips back and forth from the bank and your home while carrying valuable coins. I would think that exposure is much more dangerous than leaving the coins at home behind closed doors. And most people who see you carry a large gun safe in your home would expect you to be keeping...guns...in it. Oh...and gun safes are usually cheaper than their smaller counterparts. Maybe not as good in the fire rating, but depending on where you place it, the heat to length of time ratio may not be an issue. (ie...corner of a basemet)
Also, regarding insurance, most companies that insure your home will offer scheduled coin coverage for your collection. You would just need to provide some sort of inventory and maybe some proof of value for some of the higher $$ items.
Thanks for some wonderful discussion here (and some not too wonderful but humorous discussion, too!)
-Any strong burgler can simply pick it up and haul it out. This isn't a chore...it's his JOB.
-If it's bolted, any burgler with knowledgeable intent can easily drill or crack the lock. I've seen it done in salvage work and it's like opening a cigar box. Remember the movie THIEF with James Caan? Big box...POP!
-OK, the burglar doesn't have tools with him...now we get into bad scenarios...he returns with help. Remember the line "this place I know has a safe loaded with money"? IN COLD BLOOD, and dozens of movies afterwards!! This time they are armed...ready to use unfriendly coersion to get you to open the box if necessary. I have "deterrents" as many do, but if someone has my 8 year old daughter in his arms I'm cooked. They get the stuff.
-Dogs are good, but so are steering wheel locks. But a good team can deal with both...they are NOT humane. Doggies are not man's best friend, to THEM.
-Therefore no matter how BIG, how HEAVY, how well HIDDEN, how well PROTECTED...if they know what they are looking for, or simply find it, you LOSE EVERYTHING!
I keep papers in my safe now.
Safe Deposit boxes are in vaults with multi thousand pound doors and concrete encased walls. They are not insured by the bank, but they are a hell of a lot safer and better protected that home "bunker" we live in. Yeah, we take the risk of an infernal fire, or a vault robbery, but these are so rare and unlikely that the odds are like a million to one.
We do like to look at our stuff...and it's not always convenient to go to the bank to get to our coins, but ask yourself what the worst case scenario is with home storage. YOU LOSE EVERYTHING. I'll take the drive to the bank!!
BTW, the idea of having really nice pictures on your computer is remarkably satisfying...I do, and I look at them all the time. As a result I know every nook and cranny of every coin...It really is a "decent" alternative concession. The cost of being wrong is just too great. And I have been one of the great risk-taker of all times. Some risks simply are just not worth the downside.
As for the Feds searching boxes, what's the worry? First of all, it's ridiculously remote that it would EVER happen. Secondly, unless you stole the stuff or are holding a half-mil. of drug money, what if they did?? You own the coins and you are legal. It's a non-issue. That's my read on the subject.
Definitely the best post I have read on the subject in the two years I have been on these boards (and the subject comes up often). Nice job!
Robert
After the 3 "s's" of course!!
I don't think a gun safe is a deterrent to crime. I think it is a big "Hey! Rob this house!" sign just like any other safe. It would be easy for a gun safe to have $5000 in guns stored inside it.
I wish I could go every Sat AM. I have two small children and often work on Sat AM. I do get to the box during the week once per month. I do keep a few coins at home, usually those that are in transition to becoming mine or becoming someone else's, that are separately insured, in a 250 lb. safe that is bolted to the floor in an inconspicuous place.
Again, great post! I am going to bookmark it for future entertainment!
Robert
Otherwise the bank safety deposit boxes are best. The fewer at home the better it is.
Keeping coins at home is always a risk.
I remember that many years ago, one of the big multi-millionare collectors had a sizeable portion of their collection
stolen from their mansion. Now they had security guards, security alarm systems, and everything.
So if a thief wants it, it is going to be really hard to stop them.
Hummm. . . maybe getting a bunch of gold plated replica pewter coins cheap and putting them in coin world slabs would work for the home safe. A bunch of replica trade dollars would go over well too. Heck even engrave your driver's license number (real small or tiny) on the coins in a not too conspicuous place too, so the police can trace them back.
Now the thieves have something to steal and the police have something to show ownership too.
Thus the only worry left is if the thieves don't want to leave witnesses.
Tracking is avaiable for autos, even kids watches can now be bought for a few bucks with Global Tracking devices, why not a slab with a GPS in it that can be kept in the box in the safe. I mentioned before about motion sensors for cases with alarms and the concern was that they would go off at a show.
Disneyland has facial recognition software yet any felon can walk into a coin show unnoticed.
The coin business needs some serious security advice and needs to get with some of the gadgets available to other industries.
<< <i>Eric -- unfortunately this issue is far more complicated than a message board will allow. You have to understand the difference between a "warrant" and an "order" and what is Consitutitionally required to secure both.
To help you understand here's a link defining Warrants.
A greatly simplified explanation is as follows. A Court Order is not as detailed as a Warrant and much easier to secure from a Judge or Magistrate. Further warrants require probable cause and are very specific. If a police officer wants a warrant to search for drugs in your safety deposit box, then the warrant will be limited to that alone. While a Court Order might allow him to search for anything. That's the essence of "sneak and peek" to see if anything is their that might incriminate someone of a crime no real probable cause is needed. Historically, US Citizens have been afforded a sense of privacy and to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures -- here's a link to the legal history of The Fourth Amendment
So while a Judge or Magistrate might still take a look at what the police/FBI want, the level of protection is much diminished by Section 215.
I know this is extremely complicated. A law student will usually spend weeks studying the Fourth Amendment and a Constitutional lawyer years trying to really understand it. It ain't easy.
Michael
Edited to add: While I never said this happens, I can invision how it could happen. And remember laws are not black and white, but merely shades of gray. All laws are subject to interpretation, that's exactly why we have a judicial system. Take murder for example, you cannot not legally kill someone but there are exceptions to this very black and white rule, you may to defend yourself. >>
Michael, I agree, I really don't want to get into a constitutional law debate here. But I will say that there are people other than attorneys who have training in various aspects of law, and to assume that someone is ignorant of the law because they are not an attorney is somewhat presumptuous.
Back to the issue at hand. The point of this thread was that somehow section 215 allowed the FBI to walk into a bank, drill your box, and take the contents. This is simply not true when you read the text of the actual law. How convenient that in the article you linked, which was legal commentary, nowhere did they quote the actual law, they used very liberal legal interpretations. I believe this to be a disservice and danger to many collectors here, some who have already said they are keeping all their valuables at home rather than store them in a safe deposit box, where the big, bad G men might confiscate them. Reading the law, this is utter nonsense. The law is written to target those who might be up to no good, such as having a suspicious interest in Boeing 747 construction, flight plans, and the like. This fear mongering that average John Q. Collector is going to have his coin collection confiscated by the FBI is ridiculous.
For those of you following along here, please take my advice. Do not keep all your coins at home. Do not make it widely known in your community that you are a coin collector. If possible, keep your valuables in several different locations away from home. I've always been a firm believer of not keeping all my eggs in one basket. You are much more likely to lose your coins if you keep them at home due to a home invasion than to lose them to a Patriot Act confiscation if you keep them in a safe deposit box.
And I also never said that if you keep your coins in a safety deposit box the FBI will confiscate them. There was a discussion as to whether there was a law forbidding keeping cash in a safety deposit box. I linked Section 215 as a possible explanation of where this rumor might have started. Banks would rather not police safety deposit boxes as required in 215 in regards to cash transactions so the banking industry might have develop a rule of thumb and came up with the whole "no cash" in safety deposit. Of course that is supposition on my part.
The law is written to target those who might be up to no good
A law is like a child. You raise him you teach him and then you let him out into the world to see how he does. You place too much blind faith that this law couldn't be used for nefarious purposes against innocent citizens. How the courts will interpret the Patriot Act and how the law is finally applied can and often is much different than the intent of it's authors.
And as for this statement --
But I will say that there are people other than attorneys who have training in various aspects of law, and to assume that someone is ignorant of the law because they are not an attorney is somewhat presumptuous.
I find it much more presumptuous that you believe that someone without formal schooling and a career devoted to the complexities of Consitutional law could possible understand all the issues involved with the Patriot Act and the Fourth Amendment. It took 200 years to develop this case law, it requires a lifetime of experience just to begin to see the subtle nuisances of its application. Which neither I nor you possess.
Michael
Israel has been doing this for over 30 years now. I saw an interview with the Security Chief of the Tel Aviv airport. They screen everybody many times over and openly profile people. The Americal reporter asked hin, "In the US there are cries of profiling being invasive and politically incorrect..what do you say to that?" His response, "Words and labels we are not worried about...BOMBS we are!" Doesn't that kind of sum up the questionability of these Acts? Life first, work out the fairness later.
Freedom has always come with a price. Many have given their blood and their lives to preserve that freedom. We do them a great injustice now to stain their memories by allowing our rights to be curtailed and in some instances abolished beause of fear. But then again, another great historical figure already touched on the subject of fear.
The world has been and will always be a dangerous place. Little can be done to make it safer. The question is what price are you willing to pay for it to be safer? Obviously you are content with giving up some of your freedoms for a perceived sense of safety. Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
Perhaps a change in the United State's foreign policy and how it treats certain countries might be a better place to begin than redrafting the Constitution as a way to insure our long term safety. And finally, if you prefer the system Israel has implemented, move there. I'm sure you'll be much safer from terrorists.
Michael
Before I go further with what you wrote, I have a question. Are you a member of the ACLU?
I personally find myself able to be "more aware" of the dangers I face in the world, and yet, I harbor no peculiar fear of the system of government I live under. Some other folks seem unable, or perhaps more likely, unwilling, to differentiate among these. Perhaps they're really, really devoted X-Files fans. So far as how the US makes policy in its treatment of other countries, I would hope anyone willing to throw dirt on our approach might also be fair-minded enough to realize that every other party/group/country on earth is very likely to deserve a dose from the same shovel, at one time or another.
<< <i>WHY? Unless you are hiding something, A) they aren't going to accidentally 'drill your box' (good pun
it's not my job to convince the government I'm not hiding anything.
I really hate that argument. Well you only have a problem with it if you have something to hide! Well lets all have cameras installed in public bathrooms, in the stalls even, hey you have nothing to hide right? Why stop there, lets put government monitored cameras in our homes so they can make sure were not breaking laws or conspiring to do so, besides you'd only have an objection to that if you have something to hide right?
sorry, I like my privacy, no matter what I do or don't have to hide.
If all you have is legal coins, then someone screwed up and there's no harm, other than your outrage.
Wrong. People are people. When Mr Little Bank Branch Manager and Mr FBI drill into my safe box and find $50,000, they're going to take it. There absolutely WILL be harm. Best case - I'll have to prove it is legal for me to possess that money.
<< <i>How about some of your thoughts and dialogue on the topic of having an In home Safe versus Safety Deposit box in which to house all of our coins[/Q
But as always the case laws the constitution bla bla come into a simple question. I'm scared of everything, OK back inside my bubble now.
Now they can sieze your car, cash etc and claim it was involved in a drug deal and YOU have to hire a lawyer, file a court case and PROVE you WEREN't guilty. If you're poor and can't afford a fight, you just lose it. Then the locals who seized it get to keep it. BAD LAW
That's a real beauty. I How a sane person can compare the "threat" of a drunk griver or falling down stairs with a bomb with 3 inch nails strapped to a jihadist exploding in a mall or a college football game is beyond belief. YOU don't live in fear of a terrorist's plot!!??
Listen, before you get on your inane liberal rant, I LOST 4 friends on 9/11. No tears, but don't preach your crap about your precious rights when I see 9 children whose fathers were incinerated. Maybe a little hard reality would take you off of your idealistic podium. Wake up and smell the people who want you and YOUR kids dead!!. They are beheading our construction workers who are in Iraq to help build their country. These are the people you want to protect? You should reevaluate the REAL issue. This isn't some political science issue in college. It's a mean ruthless enemy that we are trying to thwart...and you are whining like a baby about the FBI. I can't figure out if you are a follower of Timothy McVeigh or Al Franken.
I'm nauseaus from this issue. Go put your friggin' coins in your pantie drawer and keep your liberal self-serving agenda at home. You may think you have rights that are being trampled but you are an invitation for a tragedy. You are invading MY right to be protected as best as is possible in an overwhelming situation. I just hope you don't get what you want.
I'm done on this thread. You hit an nerve with me. Try dealing with death before you open your mouth. Shriek amongst yourselves.
JB
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i> Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
That's a real beauty. I How a sane person can compare the "threat" of a drunk griver or falling down stairs with a bomb with 3 inch nails strapped to a jihadist exploding in a mall or a college football game is beyond belief. YOU don't live in fear of a terrorist's plot!!??
Listen, before you get on your inane liberal rant, I LOST 4 friends on 9/11. No tears, but don't preach your crap about your precious rights when I see 9 children whose fathers were incinerated. Maybe a little hard reality would take you off of your idealistic podium. Wake up and smell the people who want you and YOUR kids dead!!. They are beheading our construction workers who are in Iraq to help build their country. These are the people you want to protect? You should reevaluate the REAL issue. This isn't some political science issue in college. It's a mean ruthless enemy that we are trying to thwart...and you are whining like a baby about the FBI. I can't figure out if you are a follower of Timothy McVeigh or Al Franken.
I'm nauseaus from this issue. Go put your friggin' coins in your pantie drawer and keep your liberal self-serving agenda at home. You may think you have rights that are being trampled but you are an invitation for a tragedy. You are invading MY right to be protected as best as is possible in an overwhelming situation. I just hope you don't get what you want.
I'm done on this thread. You hit an nerve with me. Try dealing with death before you open your mouth. Shriek amongst yourselves.
JB
I wondered why I wasn't so outraged when I read this statement and went back and looked:
<< <i>
The world has been and will always be a dangerous place. Little can be done to make it safer. The question is what price are you willing to pay for it to be safer? Obviously you are content with giving up some of your freedoms for a perceived sense of safety. Worry more about a drunk driver than a terrorist bomb. You are more likely to be killed by falling down your stairs than having a jetairliner flown into your building. I don't live my life in fear of a terrorist's plot.
>>
Indeed, this is in direct responce to one of your posts. The author made no value judgements, he merely
made statements of fact. Which ever side of this issue we are on, we should be able to discuss it openly
and without animosity. The author has also made many contributions to this thread.
Do we really need to banish all political discussion to the open forum until after the election?
That would be a shame.
Jay
My two cents on the issue...I started with a decent safe...about 150 pounds...well hidden...and used it until I woke up one night thinking about how "difficult" it would be to rob. It's KID'S PLAY!! Don't fool yourself.
-Any strong burgler can simply pick it up and haul it out. This isn't a chore...it's his JOB.
-If it's bolted, any burgler with knowledgeable intent can easily drill or crack the lock. I've seen it done in salvage work and it's like opening a cigar box. Remember the movie THIEF with James Caan? Big box...POP!
-OK, the burglar doesn't have tools with him...now we get into bad scenarios...he returns with help. Remember the line "this place I know has a safe loaded with money"? IN COLD BLOOD, and dozens of movies afterwards!! This time they are armed...ready to use unfriendly coersion to get you to open the box if necessary. I have "deterrents" as many do, but if someone has my 8 year old daughter in his arms I'm cooked. They get the stuff.
-Dogs are good, but so are steering wheel locks. But a good team can deal with both...they are NOT humane. Doggies are not man's best friend, to THEM.
-Therefore no matter how BIG, how HEAVY, how well HIDDEN, how well PROTECTED...if they know what they are looking for, or simply find it, you LOSE EVERYTHING!
I keep papers in my safe now.
Safe Deposit boxes are in vaults with multi thousand pound doors and concrete encased walls. They are not insured by the bank, but they are a hell of a lot safer and better protected that home "bunker" we live in. Yeah, we take the risk of an infernal fire, or a vault robbery, but these are so rare and unlikely that the odds are like a million to one.
We do like to look at our stuff...and it's not always convenient to go to the bank to get to our coins, but ask yourself what the worst case scenario is with home storage. YOU LOSE EVERYTHING. I'll take the drive to the bank!!
BTW, the idea of having really nice pictures on your computer is remarkably satisfying...I do, and I look at them all the time. As a result I know every nook and cranny of every coin...It really is a "decent" alternative concession. The cost of being wrong is just too great. And I have been one of the great risk-taker of all times. Some risks simply are just not worth the downside.
As for the Feds searching boxes, what's the worry? First of all, it's ridiculously remote that it would EVER happen. Secondly, unless you stole the stuff or are holding a half-mil. of drug money, what if they did?? You own the coins and you are legal. It's a non-issue. That's my read on the subject.
Before you make assumptions that aren't true based upon your own narrow view of the situation, allow me to clarify somethings for you. I am a Republican, not a liberal, and I'm not a card carrying ACLU member. Just because I treasure a document that I feel is one of the greatest ever put forth by man in our limited time ruling the earth, doesn't mean I don't see the issues or feel the pain of death. I grew up in the shadow of the World Trade Center -- ask yourself how many people I knew that perished that day. However, I can look past the leaves on the trees and look at the much larger issue and not be blinded by fear. If you worry about terrorist's bombs and 3 inch nails I feel sorry for you, that's no way to live life. But make no mistake, circumventing the Constitution will not make you any safer. Just has this thread has indicated, if a thief wants your valuables, he's going to get them with enough persistence, if you keep them at home. We are a country of 275 million people with borders that are as pourous as cheesecloth. Undermining civil liberties will not change that fact and will not make us any safer. If your jihad terrorist wants to bomb your college football game on a cool October Saturday morning, not much can be done to stop him, unless of course we become a police state like Israel.
You fear death, which is healthy. I do not. I have faced my own death at least 4 times in my life. Matter of fact, today is the 1 year anniversary of my most recent heart attack. Further, I lost 75% of my family by the time I was 21. Death is something I am quite familiar with. Facing your own mortality wakes you up to some self evident truths about yourself. One of which is that time is limited and the freedom to do with that time as you see fit is the most precious. If I allowed emotion to control my behavior, I would cower in fear with just the act of opening my eyes every morning. I live with a greater than 90% chance that I will die with my next heart attack. You are obviously someone that is controlled by emotion. A few simple words that I had written on a message Board has shown that. You can be manipulated through your emotional weakness. To a certain extent, that is exactly what your jihad terrorist wants -- to strike fear into the hearts and minds of Americans. They are jealous of the freedom we have. The lifestyle we lead. The wealth this country has. Make no mistake, they would like nothing more than to see the United States and its citizens cower before their plots and bombs. People like you that are willing to make certain concessions of our civil liberties allow them victory.
They, as I, do not fear death. With that comes the power to control those that do. If they can alter our way of life, our thoughts, our collective destiny by killing thousands, they in essence have succeeded.
Michael
With due respect you do not know me. You are writing my bio based on a post. I'm NOT afraid of death(Mr. Death that is NOT an invitation!)...I am afraid of innocent civilians being killed in the name of hate. I am afraid of my precious 8 year old daughter being harmed. I would gladly have taken an automatic weapon and go to Afghanistan to defend our freedom and rights, if I wasn't about to turn 50!
But please don't analyze who I am and what motivates me on simplistic information. I believe in reality and sometimes principles have to be compromised. I am a Republican as well, yet I detest Ashcroft. But I see things as I interpret them my eyes.
Lets't just agree to disagree and let it rest. No more on this subject from me. I want to talk about coins. Expensive ones belong in banks.
Jay
I have a large shelved Gun Safe in a secure location in my home that holds the majority of my 'standard' coin collection, as well as some other valuables (Granted, I have ZERO guns in my home). The only items that exist in my safe deposit box are my higher valued gold/platinum coins and various financial documents. With that said, the only other person that actually knows that I even own a safe is my father, who helped me install it, and it will remain that way
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>Lets't just agree to disagree and let it rest. No more on this subject from me. I want to talk about coins. Expensive ones belong in banks. >>
Michael
I checked out ANA insurance, too many exclusions such as natural disasters or a spouse that has gone berserk. By splitting my collection in two SD boxes, I am reducing the risk by 50%.
I would be very leary of using private, non-bank safe deposit boxes. A few years ago a Seattle bullion dealer, C. Rhyne, was selling bullion from customer's boxes. He was convicted and sent to jail, the customers were out of luck, some had $100,000+ in bullion that was looted from the man they bought it from. Another local elderly coin dealer with SD boxes has just died, I do not know what is happening to the customer's coins in the SD boxes, as he was a one man show, but I would be nervous if I had stored coins there.
But let's remember our poet lauriate Rodney King, "Hey man, can't we all just get along?"
wanna see some more sparks fly? Post a thread asking if "dipping" is a form of "cleaning", and whether or not it changes the metal surface?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry