"In-home Safes vs Safety Deposit Boxes"
Deb048gold
Posts: 192
How about some of your thoughts and dialogue on the topic of having an In home Safe versus Safety Deposit box in which to house all of our coins. One of the draw-backs I realize with Safety Deposit Boxes, is the fact that I have to trek down to the bank every time I want to take my coins home to view or update collection or just to enjoy, etc.
As we build our collections it obviously becomes apparent that hiding our collections in the house isn't smart and is unsettling at best. We soon realize that we have to make the decision whether to go down to the local bank and get a box, obviously big enough or do we shop around for an In home safe. Do we go fireproof safe or burglary safe or combination? Do we want in ground? In the wall? Safe bolted to the floor?
What are your thoughts? Have you invested in a safe at home? What make? Features?, etc.
0
Comments
2 1/2 feet deep..........
6 ft tall ..............
4 inch concrete filled steel plate walls and doors..........
The absolute SMALLEST I would consider !!!!!!!!!!
If you don't have to re-inforce something to hold up your safe, IT'S TOO SMALL !!!!!!!!!!!
3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
4 "YOU SUCKS"
Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
Seated Halves are my specialty !
Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
(1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
Coins that are safe-deposit worthy stay there.
My Statehood Quarter Registry set gets to stay home
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that.
How that will affect insurance on coins somewhere down the road is unknown. But it's certainly worth asking the question to the insurance person which I've done but she's now on vacation.
Rgrds
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
this has to do with recent (since 9/11) changes to money laundering laws under the Patriot Act.
<< <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that
this has to do with recent (since 9/11) changes to money laundering laws under the Patriot Act. >>
Thanks for the info.
Well then I guess I'm not a "patriot". Great direction this place is heading. Jeesh.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that. >>
Sounds like another wacky FL law. I'm getting very tired of Florida law and am about to make certain people there deal with Virginia law.
<< <i>
<< <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that. >>
Sounds like another wacky FL law. I'm getting very tired of Florida law and am about to make certain people there deal with Virginia law. >>
Personally I like Virginia. Nowhere near where I'm at with Fla but I like it. And I tire of people who say negative things about this great place and wish that the deadbeats from elsewhere would avoid our great state and keep on heading into the ocean or stay where they are. There's a lot of them down here right now trying to take advantage of mostly old people who are desperate from the hurricanes, especially Charlie and Ivan.
It's not a "wacky FL law". It's federal. And those guys from Virginia from long ago would now be considered "extremists" in a best case and terrorists in a real case scenario according to where we're at today.
However, with regards to what you're referring too, I hope you're successful with that.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I am considering a small to medium fire resistant safe. I read an article once about how often banks drill deposit boxes at the request of police or other government agencies and I don't feel secure leaving anything in a bank vault knowing that it could be accessed or even confiscated on a whim. >>
Sliderider, a small "fire resistant" safe can simply be carried out. Might as well hide the "stuff" in other places.
You might want to check with your postal clerk as to up coming sales of USPS safes. They just had one in Tampa a few months ago and a few which would be small enough for home use and appeared to be burglar resistant quality went for a couple hundred bucks each. ( + cost to move and ship)
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
The first time the buglars rob your house, your safe will protect your coins.
The only problem now, is a felon knows you have a safe in your house, so he comes back when you are home with a gun.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
if he comes back when I'm home with a gun, he's gonna be hurtin'
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I'm afraid to ask at my bank about keeping money in a safety deposit box. I might put them in a ackward position.
Jerry
I'm pretty sure that a law-abiding citizen with a coin collection will not be prosecuted for storing the "money" in a safe deposit box.
I feel confident that this "law" refers to packs of cash of questionable origin,
stored by people with questionable backgrounds and/or intent.
BTW, all the "good stuff" is in a bank box.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I do not believe that any such law exists. (at least no Federal law)
<< <i>Can anyone actually cite a law prohibiting cash in a safe deposit box?
I do not believe that any such law exists. (at least no Federal law) >>
Thats because your correct, there is none, Federal or State or otherwise. I'd be looking for a different bank if the manager told me that bag of beans tale, she's clueless. I worked for a major bank for 24 years, and I can tell you this law does not exist, and has nothing to do with the Patriot Act either. However, of more importance, is the fact that your contents are NOT insured by the bank. So if you suffer a loss, your on your own unless your homeowners policy had a rider covering safe deposit box contents.
Sorry for stock images, I do not have pictures of one and I am waiting for Background check for other:
Eisenhower Dollar, BU
Set Incomplete:
Roosevelt Dime
1900 - Current Type, No Gold
Silver Eagle
who knows you collect coins also knows you keep them in safety deposit boxes. Safes
are only effective for small collections and only if people don't know they're there. As has
been pointed out, they can become a liability if they are discovered in a burglary.
While the greatest problem with an in home safe is the attention they might attract, they
also are much easier to rob than a bank. The bank has layers of security and can not open
the boxes even if the security all fails. Large collections should be kept in safety deposit
boxes. Collectors can always keep minor collections in the home.
Further, we encourage collectors (who have sizeable numismatic holdings) to obtain insurance. Its not very expensive if you're asking for coverage on items stored in a major bank's safety deposit box or in home safes with a high TL rating and security alarms. There are a number of insurance companies that specialize in insuring both dealers and collectors. Although I cannot endorse one over the other, the three biggest and most reputable that I'm aware of are (in no particular order):
North American Collectibles Society (1-800-685-6746)
H.W. Wood, Ltd. (London Office E-Mail: london@hwint.com)
Cleland & Associates (1-800-827-0192)
Finally, the notion that storing "money" in a bank's safe box is illegal is not correct (and downright silly). However, I'm fairly certain that possessing "ill-gotten or undeclared money" (either on your person or in your personal storage) IS illegal.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
A home safe should be for those valuable documents, papers and jewelry and such.
I'd only store your valuable coins in the home safe until you can get them to the safe deposit box.
Home invasions is now more common, extremely dangerous, the criminals will likely kill people whether
they hand over stuff or not, either way.
Unfortunately, the best defense is that no one knows you have these things to steal.
Having firearms around requires a tremendous amount of responsibility on your part as well. Thieves target firearms and
are likely to want them more than the coins.
But in all fairness big dogs work great, especially when they do not like to be woke up by strangers in the house.
I found this photo someplace and having these guys staring you in the face after climbing in through a window, wanting to know what your doing, ought to be a excellent nightmare.
Rather than render an opinion based on nothing more than what you think, make the call. Ask the question.
Get the facts. I'm telling you what I was told by 2 bank employees including the VP of the bank. The VP however use the word "technically speaking".
Now if "technically speaking" she is correct, then doesn't that make the "out" for an insurance company a possibility? I would think it does "technically speaking".
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I'm not sure I understand your question(s) -- but I stand by my "non-legally binding" opinion. Perhaps someone would like to contact the FBI or IRS for clarification . . . just not me!
Edited to Add: I just spoke with two of our bankers who said they were NOT aware of any such law that makes it illegal to store legal tender (per se) in safe boxes.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
<< <i>Tom,
I'm not sure I understand your question(s) -- but I stand by my "non-legally binding" opinion. Perhaps someone would like to contact the FBI or IRS for clarification . . . just not me!
No I said "The question". You don't need to call the FBI. Call your bank and ask them if it's ok to store rare coins in a safe deposit box. What might really be interesting is to get several different answers from several different banks. ( Ha!)
It's bizarre I know, but it is what it is.
It's for "freedom" and "safety" don't you know. ( that's my sarcastic take on it)
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Maybe disguise your coin collection as a book on a crowded bookshelf!
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
If we were talking nickels and dimes ( hahaha) I would pay it no mind.
But I'm not obviously talking about just nickels and dimes. And as such, I've sent Barb an email with my bankers name and phone number for clarification and something in writing.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
You're probably correct about a burgler not searching a bookshelf. However, a fire might find your bookshelf quite appealing.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
<< <i>You're probably correct about burgler not searching a bookshelf. However, a fire might find your bookshelf quite appealing.
Could be a marketing opportunity: A huge reinforced cardboard-looking box, large enough to enclose a small safe, that you can write the work "BOOKS" on the outside of with a magic marker. A huge box of books would weigh about what a safe weighs, anyway...
Jerry
Just park a '75 Ford in the driveway, and don't worry about anything else! You won't even have to feed and water it like with dogs.
By the way, how did the Safe Boxes fare during the recent hurricanes? If the bank gets blown away, do the boxes live?
They are ok but the bank is destoyed. What's left of it is a sort of temporary "mud room". You have to knock on the door and be greeted by an armed police officer who opens it. Once inside the room, there's 2 girls sitting at a folding table with calculators and that is it.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Glad they're OK
No privacy.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
The biggest dangers with a box are flooding and having access to the box in the event of a disruption
to the bank.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am considering a small to medium fire resistant safe. I read an article once about how often banks drill deposit boxes at the request of police or other government agencies and I don't feel secure leaving anything in a bank vault knowing that it could be accessed or even confiscated on a whim. >>
Sliderider, a small "fire resistant" safe can simply be carried out. Might as well hide the "stuff" in other places.
You might want to check with your postal clerk as to up coming sales of USPS safes. They just had one in Tampa a few months ago and a few which would be small enough for home use and appeared to be burglar resistant quality went for a couple hundred bucks each. ( + cost to move and ship)
Tom >>
It may not be 100% effective against burglars, but it will provide some protection in case my house burns down. And a safe that's small enough can be hidden or placed in an inconvenient location. I doubt a burglar is going to take the time to search your attic or crawlspace. I will check with the post office, though, for their surplus sales and see what they have. Thanks for the tip.
Actually, the law COULD be applied to rare coins as well. Technically they are still considered money, and a drug dealer or other criminal could securely launder their dirty money by buying rare coins, hiding them in a safe deposit box under another name and reselling them years later. It's a lot easier to store a rare, slabbed double eagle than it is to store the bundles of cash it takes to buy it.
SAFE BOX REGULATION
Also . . .
It may not be 100% effective against burglars, but it will provide some protection in case my house burns down. And a safe that's small enough can be hidden or placed in an inconvenient location. I doubt a burglar is going to take the time to search your attic or crawlspace.
Sliderider,
You may well be correct that a burglar will not spend much time searching in obscure areas of your home for a safe. However, most of the tragic stories I've read that involve home safes is that it was some casual public statement by the collector or perhaps his young child who brags on the schoolyard that "Daddy has cool old coin collection he keeps in a safe buried in the floor . . . " that tips off the opportunistic criminal.
As Bob Bruggerman (Executive Director of the PNG) once told me; its not the criminal who tries to break into your safe while you out of the office/home that you need to worry about. Its the criminal armed with a weapon and with the tip that you own something very valuable . . . in a private safe . . . on your premises . . . and you ARE going to open it for him.
I apologize if all this sounds a little too melodramatic. But I really want to emphasize my recommendation to keep your coins off your premises in a secured location.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
Another "Urban Myth" has been dispelled.I would think that someone hiding a huge
amount of cash anyplace would obviously besome kind of a criminal or breaking
the law on something because normal people would have all that money put someplace earning a return.
The only exception I know of is that guy who won the lottery over in Kentucky( or was it West Virginia?)
who went into a strip joint with a briecase with something like $250,000 cash in it and was showing it to everyone.
Yup somebody robbed him too.
Then I guess there was that $1,000,000 display that used to be up in a casino in Las Vegas for many years.
Yeah right, try and spend a $1,000 bill anywhere. It would have been very interesting to read about some fool trying to do just that though.
I did a "back of the envelope" calculation when my collection got big enough to think about this question and the safety deposit box option was cheaper than buying a safe and adding to my insurance. Depends on the size of box you need though.
Dr J
My omnicoin collection (or how my coin photography has progressed)
BTW don't be surprised about the govenments ability to slip in laws as "anti terrorist" laws that are really to control our ability to hide from taxes. Some day they will put expiration dates on the money as well. And they still have the "rainbow money" ready for change out, and you better be able to explain any major cash reserves.
Section 351 of the new Act provides specific directives to banks and financial institutions, requiring the implementation of anti-money laundering programs. These include development of internal polices, procedures, and controls, the designation of a compliance officer, the requirement of an on-going employee training program, and an independent audit function to test programs. The mandatory reporting of suspicious or large cash transactions (previously reported only to the Treasury Department) has been expanded to require reporting to law enforcement. Financial institutions are prohibited from disclosing to anyone whether or not reporting has occurred. Unless there is malice in the reporting, financial institutions receive immunity for meeting obligations under this Act.
So in essence, while there's no direct Federal or state law on point, the bank can report you to the US Government if they find cash in your safety deposit box. I am sure banks really don't want to police their customer's saftey deposit boxes so therefore they tell you that there's a law prohibiting it while in actuality the law is aimed at forcing the bank to police their customers.
So I suppose that keeping large sums of cash, bullion or even rare coins might raise the suspicion of a overly vehement bank employee so that he/she might file a report with local, state and federal law enforcement. Which would result in a knock on your door.
Otherwise, I doubt highly that banks are strongly enforcing this policy.
Michael
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
They wouldn't have to know for sure, they would just have to be suspicious. You walk in with a duffle bag that appears full, gain entry into your box. Leave without the bag or with an empty looking bag -- looks like you stuck alot of something into your box. Busybody bank employee calls and reports you to the Treasury Dept/FBI as someone that is depositing large amounts of items into a safety deposit box. FBI swings by, they drill the box and look inside for a "sneak and peek" search.
All it takes really. I'm not saying this happens but it certainly could.
Michael