AT toning Experiment -- final pics!

FrattLaw

Before I head off to Mexico for the day I'd figured I'd post pics of the coins from the toning experiment I was running.













As you can see, none of the holders provided 100% complete security and protection from the sulphur. Even the PCGS rattler allowed the Morgan to tone slightly around the rims. I think the Capitol Plastics Morgan in attractive and looks to be NT. I will try in the future to slab this coin and will post the results of such.

Next up, additional slab company testing -- NGC, PCI, ANACS and a Coinworld snap together holder.

Thanks
Michael

ziggy29

AT or not, I really like the toning around the obverse on the first coin.

mrpaseo

FrattLaw-Where did you get the sulfer?

ziggy your sig line link is not working.

Ray

ziggy29

Fixed -- thanks.

INXS

I like the results. As good if not better than some NT coins that you see on EBAY. On a seriopus note I guess this concludes that the only thing the slab or plastic case does is protect the coin from scratches, no matter how its sealed. Thanks for the experiment.

Inxs

mgoodm3

Now we gotta see what a newer holder does. the toning you've gotten is very natural. The natural appearance of the toning is related to the holder itself.

billboat

Looks great! Where did you describe the method? How did you introduce the sulphur?

ddbird

EGGS thats how hes gets his sulfur!

TonedCoinTrader

For the final test in this experiment you should submit all the coins raw for certification


Scott

stman

Now I don't know what to do. You do a quick experiment and come very close to what some coins look like on the market. I imagine your point is if you can do this very limited test, just imagine what a "Real Coin Doctor" can do.

Then I hear big time dealers say to have them (and trust them) to make sure I don't get burned out there. That with their experience they can pick the bad coins out better than the Wannabe's.

BUT, they then make comments like this....

<< <i>Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it! >>



Sounds like great advice kinda like this one that we here folks say also... "who cares if it's AT, if it's pretty and you like it is all that matters."

But I will still trust the big time dealers, as I know they are looking out for my best interest.

I'm soooo confused...

magikbilly

Hi,
excellent experiment! The results are what I expected. Thanks for posting the images! Perhaps my concerns about storage in wood will make a bit more sense to some now?
From a previous post of mine "I don't think wood boxes a good idea - acetic acid is outgassed by oak - up to 5% of its weight - was not acetic acid (in the form of vinegar) used with eggs in the excellent posted experiment showing how easy it is to tone a slabbed Morgan in a plastic bag? Many have stated the PCGS storage boxes appear to be oak. That alone is enough to give me pause."

"Original" Wood Post (sent to Mr. Hall Aug 5th, responded Sept. 14th....just 3 days after my ORIGINAL Poll closed where 78.79% voted "wood has the potential to harm coins")

Original PCGS Wood Poll Thread (more data)

Link To Another Wood Thread


Best,
Billy, of anti-wood infamy

rainbowroosie

Sell them to tonecoin 2003...heard he was buying

ksteelheader

Sulphur can be bought at just about any hardware or garden store. It comes in small bags and is intended for use on acid loving plants and shrubbery!

Ken

Russellp23

And if you live in the country you can sprinkle it around your property to keep snakes away

Myqqy

Interesting pictures!! The only coins that look kinda weird to me are the roosevelt dime and the jefferson nickel..........

Dog97

Great point stman, great point! Remeber those millions of emails, PMs, & phone calls where I harped about original surfaces & AT to the point that I was sounding like I was some kind of paranoid coin psycho?
Now maybe everybody will understand what I was talking about and start looking at their coins a little more carefully instead of blindly trusting some grading service or some weasel dealer who makes most of his coin sales on sleazeBay.
Just for fun let me grade Fratt's 85-O:

Dog's grading: Ave strike, nice luster, yucky brown dip retoning on the periph, scuffy in the fields and few tick marks but nothing major..hmmm..ms63. Doc could at least put a fingerprint on it to prove it has original surfaces. $20 piece of AT shiat.

Todays dealer/market grading: COLOR! AMAZING RAINBOW TARGET TONED! GUMMETAL BLUE WITH A TOUCH OF PURPLE AND BEAUTIFUL PASTELS! KILLER APPEAL! KILLER EYE CANDY! ORIGINAL SURFACES!! EASY 64 GIVE IT A BUMP FOR TREMENDOUS APPEAL & COLOR..PUT 65 ON THE SLAB. HEY THE SLAB SAYS 65 BUT GIVE IT A BUMP FOR THE MARKET WILL BEAR...66 money. A $400 coin.

New onslaught of "rainbow" toned coins dealers listing on sleazeBay in 3..2..1

ms70

I think the toning on the Franklin is starting to get that "AT" look. No offense, just my opinon. But it does look nice as do all the others.

Maybe the next experiment is to see if the toning process stops on it's own once removed from the source?

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Sulphur can be bought at just about any hardware or garden store. It comes in small bags and is intended for use on acid loving plants and shrubbery! >>



Sulfur in that form is useless for toning coins. It would have to be placed on the coin and then heated up good to react and of course it will look like chit cuz yu will use WAAAYYY to much sulfur.
Get yerself some pure iron powder or filings and some sulfur. Mix a small amount of each in a flask if you can find one and heat to a red heat with a propane torch. Cool the black mass that remains. Take a little of the iron sulfide you just made and put it in a little glass jar. Put it into a plastic bag [clear polyethylene would be best] along with a silver coin that you would like to tone. Put a teaspoon or two of water and a few drops of vinegar into the container with the ferrous sulfide. Seal off the bag and let it set for a few days. Oh BTW do this in your garage. Keep repeating this until you get the tone that you want. The secret is to generate SMALL concentrations of hydrogen sulfide over LONG periods of time.

stman

Dog.... Glad you caught my point. Seems there is usually only a few of us that will usually speak up. Perhaps not what some want to hear, and definitely not by "Popular demand."



<< <i>Great point stman, great point! Remeber those millions of emails, PMs, & phone calls where I harped about original surfaces & AT to the point that I was sounding like I was some kind of paranoid coin psycho? >>



Coin psycho? You want the truth? Yeah man, we would discuss all the AT coins people were posting. More-so that certain "Blue" that we were suspect of and everybody told us basically to shut up. Plus just some good ol coin conversation figuring out how a coin toned rather then just say "Ohhh, that's pretty."



<< <i>Doc could at least put a fingerprint on it to prove it has original surfaces >>



Hahahaha.... I believe we've discussed this as well. Always remember, "If it has fingerprint, that attests to it's originality."

Dog97

Ahh yes.....the blues.....more egg less vinegar more time less heat for that ice blue color.
Browns look familiar too.

MrSpud

Thanks, Frattlaw, for sharing the results of your interesting experiment. A while back I did a few toning experiments on AU pocket change so I would have some reference coins to help me figure out what AT looks like. Since then I have been able to spot some AT coins at coin shows. One dealer in particular had a whole bunch of raw Morgans and Peace dollars that had a look very similar to the ones I AT'd. I also saw a couple of dealers that had slabbed coins with a more subtle but somewhat AT look to some of them. I see from your experiment that the holders give a more natural look than just a raw coin. They might keep toning a bit though. Some of the ones I AT'd got a bit darker. I noticed this a few days after I did it. They seemed to keep darkening for a while then they seemed to stop. I guess residual sulfides were still reacting.

Do you think PCGS would honor their guarantee if someone bought a slab with an AT'd coin in it? Like maybe one that was freshly AT'd that looked "market acceptable" when purchased but then it continues to tone and takes on an obvious AT look? Does the guarantee apply to doctored coins?

jom

stman: I'd like to make a few comments. All done for the sake of discussion....

>>>>I imagine your point is if you can do this very limited test, just imagine what a "Real Coin Doctor" can do.

I think that is a GOOD point. You don't think so? Maybe you do....I didn't understand you comment I guess. Sorry....

>>>>That with their experience they can pick the bad coins out better than the Wannabe's.

They probably do say that. As I've said time and again if you do NOT know what you are doing you shouldn't be buying coins.

>>>Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it!

I don't EVER remember any dealer saying this. But there is a general feeling in the market that if the coin is slabbed then is MUST be OK. That is certainly not a good thing. That goes not only for "blessing" potential AT coins BUT the overall grade itself.. At the last Long Beach show I saw MANY cleaned, AT and overgraded coins in holders....it's "par for the course" now. Point is you should learn to GRADE and take responsibility YOURSELF.

>>>>Sounds like great advice kinda like this one that we here folks say also... "who cares if it's AT, if it's pretty and you like it is all that matters."

This is where you and I part ways I guess. I've said this many times and I still don't think it matters a damn. I would NOT, in any shape or form, suggest this as "advice" to a newbie nor would I tell that to someone who is buying a coin from me (like a dealer). But for me it just doesn't matter. Why? Because there really isn't any hard and fast "rules" on what AT is (or isn't). If you like the price you pay and are VERY aware that the coin could change color over time it is each persons decision about what they like or not. My problem with the coin market it just seems people are more interested in what OTHERS think of their purchases rather than think about what they themselves like. Just an observation....

I'm sure some object to the high premiums being paid for this stuff. Well, if collectors would quit paying these absurd prices this wouldn't be a problem would it? But, frankly, I don't think the premium for buying toned coins is anywhere NEAR as bad as the premiums being paid for SMALL differences in grade and idiotic strike designations. I've seen coins go from holder to holder and go UP in grade. Somehow a coin wasn't desireable in an MS63 at $500 but a year later it ends up in an MS65 holder with a FBL or FH at $5000 people fall all over it? Huh?

>>>>But I will still trust the big time dealers, as I know they are looking out for my best interest.

I agree with your point...if I understand it correctly. Again, people should be responsible themselves and LEARN about this stuff before buying.

>>>>Perhaps not what some want to hear, and definitely not by "Popular demand."

I'm not sure what it is you think that you are saying that isn't "popular". I think Fratt has shown it is VERY easy to "create" what is considered market acceptable toning. Well...duh. lol I think I've known that for years now. I'm just glad he was able to SHOW this for everyone to see. Maybe this will stop the huge premiums that are being paid...I don't know. Whatever the case it seems this was a good educational thread. Good job, Fratt!

jom

stman

Jom, to save myself a lot of typing, many of the points you brought up about my post YOU took it wrong. If you'd like me to describe what I will, but first go back and read what I wrote again.

jom

I don't hink I took any of it wrong because I figured we probably just agreed...mostly. I was just adding to the discussion... I probably should have directed the response to the thread...in which it was intended...without putting your name at the beginning.

jom

stman

OK, it's all good.

FrattLaw

Just to sum up -- thanks to everyone for making this an interesting thread.

As for the 85-O Morgan -- that's going to the next phase -- I want to see if it'll slab at NGC and PCGS.

As for the 88 Morgan -- I think I'll have that one reholdered into a new PCGS slab.

I will of course continue with my experiments and will try to replicate these findings with PCI, ANACS, NGC ect. As well as test some of the aftermarket products and the Intercept Shields.

Overall, I will try to change the mix up a bit so I can truly start to get the kind of color/toning that demands a premium. Again, Stman really summed it up, if I can do this with eggs/onions & vinegar imagine what someone with any real knowledge and desire could do.

Michael

stman

Frattlaw, may I suggest when you go to get these things holdered (or re-holdered) to be "Creative" and have someone else do it for you?

Not that any graders or owners of company's read these boards of course.

FrattLaw

<< <i>and have someone else do it for you? >>



Perhaps, but do you really think they would remember 2 morgans out of the thousands upon thousands that are submitted each month?

Come to think of it, since there are pics posted with my name you just might be right!

Michael