The myth of collectors preferring Bust Halves RAW ?
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
Over the last couple of weeks we have had several threads discussing collecting Bust halves. Many of these discussions have centered around comments of whether collectors of this series prefer collections of Raw, or certified coins. Most of the comments from the board have been that most Bust half collectors prefer to collect coins in a RAW state. The reasons given for this very from, “ collectors want to see the edges” to “ it’s a disgrace to put Bust Halves in plastic” Well in the last couple of days I have had an opportunity to do an in depth study of the recent sale of the Tidwell collection, and its results. One of the things I found very interesting about this collection is that the sale contained approximately 238 RAW coins and 367 certified coins, from mostly the top 3 certifiers. From looking at the pictures, and close-ups, of many of the Rare Coins in the sale it was obvious that many of these could not be certified due to cleaning or defects. It may be a large leap of assumption, but it appears that the Tidwell’s collected certified coins, and most likely directly, or indirectly, submitted coins to be certified that were BB, but remained in their collection due to rarity.
A brief bit of info. From the sales brochure:
THE TIDWELL COLLECTION
The Collection: The strength of the Collection is its completeness, ranking first in the Bust Half Nut Club Census. There are 453 collectible varieties in the Capped Bust series. Another 155 or so subvarieties are listed in Overton's 1990 edition. Within a single decade the Tidwells picked up 452 die marriages and virtually all listed subvarieties. There are 605 coins in the collection.
The Tidwells did not demand Uncirculated coins or finest-knowns, though a number or such pieces grace the collection. They looked for choice XF and AU coins.
Sheridan Downey, Numismatist
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Comments
Too small of a sample size to make any reliable statements about the state of bust half collectors.
Now, if you create a poll (and it would need to be better that the polls that you can create here) and ask people to state whether they like raw or slabbed, then toss in a few other data points like how many bust halves in their collection, average grade of their collection, highest grade, lowest grade etc. Then you may be able to create some interesting charts about the state of bust half collectors.
The mystique of third party certification has certainly increased in the last five years which is another factor in the desire to sell certified coins.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that major auction houses suggest that bust halfs be certified if possible.
I do believe that serious collectors of bust halfs prefer the coins raw but I also believe that when it comes time to dispose of their holdings the trend is to sell them in PCGS holders.
<< <i>[Tidwell’s] submitted coins to be certified that were BB, but remained in their collection due to rarity. >>
How did you come to make that assumption? A more likely hypothesis is that they purchased a number of more common (and thus available problem-free) marriages already slabbed, but never bothered to crack them out. Meanwhile, the rare varieties were taken as they were available, with litttle care for their slabability.
Cool Things
Bust Coin Forum
How did you come to make that assumption? A more likely hypothesis is that they purchased a number of more common (and thus available problem-free) marriages already slabbed, but never bothered to crack them out. Meanwhile, the rare varieties were taken as they were available, with litttle care for their slabability.
UncleB
In analyzing this sale it was obvious that the Tidwell’s were true collectors in every sense of the word. I don’t believe that the investment approached even came to mind except as a matter of budget.
Many of the certified coins were R3,4,5, and since there were many different slabs, even third tier slabs, it is obvious that they did not do a big submittal to get ready to market.
In looking at the pictures and blow-ups many of the rare high R-factor coins had problems, nicked edges, PVC, cleaning lines, etc. I mean, who cares when you are a true collector, and there are coins that only have a total pop of 6-30.
For most collectors with sets over 200 coins I think it is very unusual to have 64% of your Bust half collection certified if you are not looking for slabs, since as we already know less than one in five Bust halves can make it through certification.
Finally we also know that PCGS and NGC coins bring over double that of RAW in current sales, and I am sure Mr. Downey knowing that would have advised them to certify anything very rare before the sale if that was possible.
Here is another wild assumption I will make, and this is subject to the sale of some of the very rare coins that I do NOT have numbers on.
I would be willing to bet that over that ten year period (1994-2004) that these folks bought these coins, the money they spent traveling, certifying, paying commissions for current sales, etc. that they were very lucky to break even on what they spent during that period.
It is difficult to stereotype bust half collectors. But the majority of die marriage collectors have VF-XF coins which are raw. Nearly all better AU and MS halves on the market are now slabbed, some buyers will crack them out, some keep them in slabs. Some collect in a wide range, as I do, from VG to MS, with most raw and some higher grades in slabs. Older collections are mostly raw, the higher grade coins will be slabbed when they come to market.
A bust half can be enjoyed the most as a raw coin.
Bill
Too many assumptions, not enough facts.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>For most collectors with sets over 200 coins I think it is very unusual to have 64% of your Bust half collection certified if you are not looking for slabs, since as we already know less than one in five Bust halves can make it through certification. Finally we also know that PCGS and NGC coins bring over double that of RAW in current sales, and I am sure Mr. Downey knowing that would have advised them to certify anything very rare before the sale if that was possible. >>
But how do you know "they" did it. If they had done it, it certainly would not have been by way of the third-tier slabs you mention. They could just as easily been slabbed by a prior holder, or as others have maintained, Sheridan himself.
The reason some of the slabbed coins appear to bring more money than non-slabbed ones is that many of the unslabbed ones would not ever make it into slabs, so there is a objective reason for their lower realizations.
Also, Sheridan having the higher-quality, problem-free coins placed in slabs is a purely marketing decision. This does not mean that bust collectors in general, or the Tidwells in particular, prefer slabbed to raw. I would have done the same thing had it been my collection, not to attract bust collectors, but to attract type collectors, dealers, or to substantiate some blind bids. One bid on the margin that is secured through somebody's confidence in the Big Two for such coins as these will more than pay for the slab fee. It was a matter of business, not taste.
Cool Things
Bust Coin Forum
“Downey submitted lots of Tidwell coins to PCGS before the sale”
“it is well known that Sheridan submitted lots of the Tidwell coins before the sale.”
“Also, Sheridan having the higher-quality, problem-free coins placed in slabs is a purely marketing decision. This does not mean that bust collectors in general, or the Tidwells in particular, prefer slabbed to raw.”
I suppose if I told you the sky in Oklahoma was blue today, many of you would argue its green, even if you were not in Oklahoma!
I don’t know where these comments are coming from and what list you guys are reading but it is not the same list I have.
First there is a PROVENANCE section that tells when and from whom the coins were purchased, do you guys see that?
Second there are only 88 PCGS coins out of the 367 slabs and most of those were purchased and not submitted, so what you are telling me is that almost all the NEW PCGS submittals got Bagged? O.K. who has the bagged list?
<< <i>It is well known that Sheridan submitted lots of the Tidwell coins before the sale. Nothing wrong with that. He's a businessman, and owes it to the consignor to try to get max value. Sheridan even sent out a mass email telling everyone how the coins performed at the services.
Too many assumptions, not enough facts.
EVP >>
I received multiple emails from Sheridan each time a group of coins came back from NGC/PCGS listing the varieties,dates and grades for the coins in that submission so it is safe to say by far the majority of coins in the Tidwell collection were raw until AFTER they were submitted. The real myth would be that they prefer coins slabbed if they rumor ever was circulated, actually I have never heard of a Bust half collector say they prefer coins slabbed although I have heard of many who cracked Busties out of slabs after buying them ( I probably cracked out a dozen or so when I collected them many years ago).
2.85% of my collection of bust halves are slabbed. I probably won't crack those two as I have no compelling reason to, there are coins just as nice in the same year/types in the albums I have.
However, it wasn't dependent upon being slabbed as to why I bought them. It just happened to be the situation.
LanLord
Can I ask how long you have been collecting?
Again please notice there is a ? mark on the title of this thread,
The myth of collectors preferring Bust Halves RAW ?
Nine months ago after digging out my old collection I noticed that I had acquired 11 Bust halves, all Raw. These coins caught my interest and after getting back into the hobby I bought an Overton book and began to acquire additional pieces, from various sites, dealers, Ebay etc.
It took me some time to get adjusted to the idea that certified coins were here to stay and the fees paid to the certifiers an insurance policy against buying and selling particular “Grades”.
After purchasing an additional 50 coins, all Raw, and claimed to be of grades XF to Au by the sellers, I made a trip to Florida and submitted a large part of my “Fine” collection to NGC. You can imagine my surprise to find that NGC did not agree with my personal grading, or the grading of many of the expert dealers I had purchased these from, nearly half were Bagged.
After long discussions on these boards, and much anger directed towards NGC and the dealers I purchased these from, some being very well respected experts, I have made some changes in my buying habits. With the help of many board members I finally came to the decision that the grading criteria varied so greatly, from dealer to dealer, from collector to collector, that the only way for me personally to build a set of Bust halves was to acquire only top tier certified coins, with the exception of extreme rarities that might never be available slabbed.
As hard as it has been for me to accept,
Certified coins are here to stay.
The more expensive a coin is the more it needs to be certified before purchase.
The days of selling Raw coins in any major auction are nearly gone to forever.
Because of the Internet and forums like these many new collectors entering the hobby will buy nearly all certified coins realizing that grading is in the eye of the holder.
Certified Bust half dollars are rarer than their counter parts by a ratio of at least 5 to 1 and market prices will continue to reflect that.
I own 97 Bust halves 43 are PCGS or NGC certified, 12 are in submission and 42 are Raw.
The 12 in submission are coins I did not have in hand at the time of my first submission.
The 42 raw coins I can more than assume are damaged, since these have been Body Bagged.
Based on the experience you cite I certainly understand your position--it makes sense for you to limit your future acquisitions to only top tier TPGs( PCGS, NGC ?). And I would most likely never buy an 1815 Bust Half raw (although I might be tempted as there are some dealers/individuals I trust and it will be a while before I have that problem!) That said, I personally don't think that, for example, because NGC bags a coin for cleaning in a series of coins that were routinely cleaned years ago that the coin isn't collectable. I agree that TPGs are here to stay--but I think in the case of Bust material that they should follow ANACS' example and net grade.
I still like mine raw--cause I like to look at the third side of things!
From your post it seems that you went from 11 Busties to 97 in 9 months--congrats!--if they are all different die marriages you're only 3 away from the BHNC! I've been at it off and on for 5 years and I'm still at 25.
Terry: An option for you in the above case may be to request to the seller that you have the coin certified by a top tier TPGS prior to closing the deal, or just make the sale contingent upon the coin certifying, either at a minimum pre-agreed upon grade or at any grade as long as it does not get BB'd.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>“have 70 bust half dollars, split between the various types which qualify as "bust", and a grand total of 2 are slabbed.2.85% of my collection of bust halves are slabbed.” LanLord Can I ask how long you have been collecting? >>
At the risk of making a Clinonesque answer, it depends upon the meaning of ... okay well not really.
I started collecting in the latest 1960s (69 if I remember correctly), picked up my first bust (1825 in VF) in around 1970. And a 1837 in 1971.
From there things mellowed out for a couple decades. I didn't really pick things back up until my father died in 1995, he left me some bust halves and that cought my attention.
I began again in ernest in around 1999 (at least in the bust area). So the real answer is I have been collecting for either 35, 33, 9 or 5 years, depending upon which year you find most important.
the enormous majority of bust halves (for that matter bust COINS) are not slabed, & the % of bust half collectors who collect only raw coins is very high. & i suspect you'd be amazed at how many bust half nuts, (obviously including yours truly) crack out all their coins.
K S
I like to see when famous collectors hang on to their bodybags. It makes feel warm and tingly inside.
42/92
Gee Karl,
You make it sound as if the poor Tidwell’s were lucky to get out with their skin intact.
Did you and Bill ever meet these folks at the BHNC gatherings?
“the enormous majority of bust halves (for that matter bust COINS) are not slabed, & the % of bust half collectors who collect only raw coins is very high.”
Karl,
There is no doubt that this is a true statement, that being said I cannot figure out why I am having to pay so much for these slabs that none of you want?
But I came on to the scene after slabs were in vogue, not collecting raw coins in the 60's and 70's like many of my fellow collectors. I learned to grade with coins in the holders, and still made many misjudgments along the way. My attempts to properly grade raw bust halves was a disaster, as following the Queller sale, which I attended, 7 of the 12 halves I purchased came back in BB's. And the slabbed coins were a point or 2 under my best guess. I may have been correct on 1 !!!
I realized that for coins in the grades I desired, professional grading was the only way I could collect, and pay the fairly high prices demanded. An 1815 in 64, 1819/18 in 65, 1829 in 66 are too much money to rely on a pair of 63 year old eyes. So I collect certified bust halves.
BUT, if I had chose to collect( for whatever reason) F to XF examples, I think I would have gone the raw route. It is more enjoyable to see all 3 sides of a coin, especially in that era, and the surfaces are such that proper handling can be done without damage. So all this dispute is really unnecessary. Collect what you like, and that makes you happy.
If there are more collectors that prefer their bust halves raw, then there are merely more happy collectors in that arena. The smaller group are happy too.
You have a great collection, but I like your Eliasberg 1794 the best. There is a coin that slabbed better than the auction description, as did most Eliasberg bust halves.
The Eliasberg 1794 is truly a fine representative of the first year half. And the catalog description aptly said "AU58 or finer, with some claims to mint state". It is the the prize of the collection.
But I would be the "happy' owner even if it were still in the Bowers and Merena flip from the sale.
<< <i>AU58 or finer, with some claims to mint state >>
That got a chuckle from this end. So that would be a AU59 PQ, right?
Cool Things
Bust Coin Forum
The opinion of grade of the coin makes little difference. Be it AU 58, or some other opinion, it is fully struck and the finest 1794 I ever care to own. It will eventually pass to another serious collector, who can remove it from the slab if he wishes. And in the raw state, it will still be easily attributed.
However, that may not be true for every rare date bust half, and I do not recommend the exposure to handling that can occur over time. I have travelled with the coin several times, to be able to exhibit it to other collectors and for the enjoyment of ownership.
But, I totally respect the problems with determing the "correct" grade for many AU 58 to 65 bust halves. I personally have had PCGS grade a coin AU 58 to MS 63, and 62 in between. And several no grades have eventually been certified between AU 58 and MS 65. There does not seem to be an acceptable standard for the bust half series.
The early dollars have similar problems with "some wear" and "previously cleaned and retoned" that make their way into MS slabs. We just have to try and recognize the differences and pay accordingly.
<< <i>“the enormous majority of bust halves (for that matter bust COINS) are not slabed, & the % of bust half collectors who collect only raw coins is very high.”
Karl,
There is no doubt that this is a true statement, that being said I cannot figure out why I am having to pay so much for these slabs that none of you want? >>
because your paying slabs. you said it yourself.
i prefer to buy coins, as do most bust-half collectors.
K S
First and foremost, it is obvious one cannot trust the POP reports to any extent, since without doubt most collectors in this area collect raw and remove coins certified from their holders. There is no way to know just how many collectors of this series exist today, or how many partial sets are put away, but we do know that there are approximately 100 active BHNC members that are currently seeking coins. We must assume that the great majority of those are collecting raw coins from the comments made here, and in addition appear to be cracking out certified coins. In those issues where the POP reports of both PCGS and NGC show very few coins ever certified, it may be that most of those have know been purchased by serious collectors and cracked out. In issues of 1806 Knob 6’s, 1809 XXX edge’s, 1823 UGLY’s and other issues, we might assume that only 25% or less of these still remain in slabs. This adds to my previous assumption that it was at least 5 times harder to build a set of certified Bust Halves.
K S
Even if your numbers are a little high, it does seem possible that there are at least 1,000 serious collectors building sets. This is to say nothing of the type set collectors, that may or may not, crack out coins depending how there sets are organized. This is certainly not the best of news for us folks that would like to collect certified, or work on Registry sets.