QUESTION regarding dealers and credit card fraud

JadeRareCoin · September 10, 2004 3:44AM

We just had an hour meeting with a representative of our bank regarding products for accepting payments from our customers. Specifically, we discussed a merchant account (to accept credit card payments) and EFT (electronic funds transfer - check payments over the phone). The equipment and the fees all seemed reasonable, but we had a problem with the answer to one of our questions: Are we protected from fraudulent people who could make a payment, but then dispute the charges and receive a credit to the card or checking account? The answer was "NO". He went on to say that someone can do a chargeback for any reason and it would be our word against theirs. The credit card company will side with the card holder. The only thing that could help us in such a situation is if we actually swipe the card and get their signature, but that in itself does not prevent fraud.

I have talked to a couple of dealers that have been ripped off by credit card charge back scams. Here's how it works: a person comes to your table at a coin show (or calls regarding a coin in an advertisement) and buys a coin. Payment is made with a credit card. He/she leaves the show with your coin, then calls his/her credit card company and disputes the charge for whatever reason. When the coin dealer returns to his/her shop, they get a notice that the charges were reversed. Now the coin dealer is out the coin and the money. The crook sells the coin and pockets the cash.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how we can protect ourselves from credit card fraud, or at least minimize the risk? We thought about only taking credit cards from established customers on orders over $1000, but that would not make some people happy. I know that I would not like the imposition. In general, we are very trusting to our clients. For example, we send coins on approval and we ship coins and allow payments to be made after delivery....even to new customers whom we don't know. However, this credit card thing really scares me. We heard of one dealer that got burned for $15,000 through this scam and another recently got burned for $4,000 through the same scam. Big money.

This is an important question for us, since we are building a new web site and are planning to be a major advertiser in Coin World within a matter of weeks. We want to accept credit cards for the convenience of our customers. We also want to accept check payments via phone (EFT), but we were told that those payments can also be charged back with ease, for any reason. Too bad that a few bad apples makes things so difficult for the honest people......

nwcs · September 10, 2004 3:49AM

I have a very simple suggestion. If the coin is over a certain threshold you feel comfortable with, do a credit check. That'll tell you. An electronic credit check will generally cost <$2 (depending on many factors) and even if you just retrieve/request a traditional FICO score, you can weed out many undesirables. Of course, you'd have to discuss the issues with one of the credit bureaus as you'd be doing this as a creditworthiness check and not for trade item, collection, or public record.

mintluster · September 10, 2004 3:56AM

I know for my bank, whom I have my VISA with, they will reverse a charge similiar to what you are saying. But there are a few requirements:

(1) I have to fill out a letter explaining to them exactly what happened and I must sign and date it and give to them (they say they "investigate" but I am not really sure what that means, I think they atleast talk to the merchant but I am not sure.

(2) This is something I have had to do only one time in the last 5 years so of course they will give me the benefit of the doubt if I question a charge on my account, which is in good standing and always has been. They want to protect me from fraud.

But you raise a good question, how do YOU as the merchant get protection? Not sure really but can you get insurance to cover this sort of fraud against you?

It really has to be this way when you think about it. Imagine if every charge on a person's card was considered legitimate and could not be questioned or overturned. It seems like whenever you protect on person, someone else is losing the protection. In this case you as the merchant.

mintluster · September 10, 2004 3:59AM

<< I have a very simple suggestion. If the coin is over a certain threshold you feel comfortable with, do a credit check. That'll tell you. An electronic credit check will generally cost <$2 (depending on many factors) and even if you just retrieve/request a traditional FICO score, you can weed out many undesirables. Of course, you'd have to discuss the issues with one of the credit bureaus as you'd be doing this as a creditworthiness check and not for trade item, collection, or public record. >>

This is good advice worth further investigation. You could have a policy, anything over $1000 with someone you do not know for example, you could do the check. This way you limit the amount you could possibly be defrauded. But I would also look into possible insurance to cover this risk as well.

poptopsRus · September 10, 2004 4:20AM

We take credit cards here in the shop and online and we've only had chargebacks twice, both from online purchases and of course both were fraud but we had to eat it. We also have the capability to take CC at shows but I don't like to do it becuase it's a pain, but if the purchase is worthwhile and the buyer knows a dealer at the show that can vouch for them then we will do it. Most serious collectors know a dealer or two at any major show. If he doesn't know anybody at the show and he doesn't give me a good feeling then I just won't do it.

Russ · September 10, 2004 4:25AM

Dennis,

I've been accepting credit cards for quite some time and I can tell you that, yes, your bank reps are correct that anybody can file a chargeback. There are a couple of ways to protect yourself, though.

First, you can require that the coin be shipped and not taken with at the time of sale at the show. Then ship ONLY to the billing address of the card with a form of shipping that requires a signature.

The other is this:

That second one will stop a scammer dead in their tracks. You'd probably want to change the company name, though.

Russ, NCNE

greghansen · September 10, 2004 4:30AM

Is there any type of insurance coverage available to businesses to mitigate against this risk? If you can insure against employee theft/dishonesty, why couldn't you insure against customer theft/dishonesty????

Russ · September 10, 2004 4:35AM

Greg,

Yes, one can add coverage for this type of thing. But, for internet based non physical terminal type transactions, (and show sales would fall in to that category), the cost is prohibitive for smaller businesses. We are considered extremely high risk.

Russ, NCNE

relayer · September 10, 2004 4:40AM

Russ-

You should move the By signing I acknowledge receipt of the above listed items above the signature line and add the phrase

By signing I agree to pay in accordance with the credit card issuers terms

That brings all of the 50-page terms the credit card companies send all their customers into your agreement as well.

Jade-

Unless you have a signed receipt with the "pay in accordance" phrase you are pretty much open to charge-backs with no defense.

For on-line transactions, you can either subscribe to an AVS feature (Address Verification Service) through your processor that matches the buyer's Zipcode to the cards billing address.

Also there is the CVV security service (which are the last 3 digits printed on the reverse of the card). It's like a PIN number for that credit card and proves the buyer actually has the card in their hand.

TheNumish · September 10, 2004 4:44AM

At coin shows you need to take the little machine that makes an imprint of the card and have the customer sign it. If you have a signature and an imprint of the card I don't think they can do a chargeback. I would also make sure to look at the persons drivers license. If you do all that the odds of getting a chargeback is very unlikely.

On mail order I would only ship to the billing address. My credit card machine verifies the billing address automatically. There will be times you get chargebacks on mail order but shipping to the billing address stops most of the fraud. Side note: if your mail order customer calls and is in a big hurry for the coin i.e. they say it's for a birthday and needs to be overnighted, I'd be very careful. Seems a lot of the con artists try to rush the transaction to force the merchant to do things they normally wouldn't do.

UncleWiggly · September 10, 2004 4:45AM

I used a credit card at the Pittsburgh show with a dealer whom I never heard of and obviously never heard of me. The stipulation: I had to get 3 dealers at the show to vouch for me. Everything worked fine. Another deal I did was a bit more complicated (actually it wasn't) They held the merchadise for me. When I got home, I called and they had already run the CC and mailed my purchase to me. This won't eliminate all risks, but it's what the dealers came up with that took my credit card at the show.

Jerry

Russ · September 10, 2004 4:49AM

<< If you have a signature and an imprint of the card I don't think they can do a chargeback. >>

Jay,

They can still do a chargeback. Credit card issuers shoot first and ask questions later. Generally, the merchant can have the chargeback reversed by providing the slip, but not always. That's why I developed the form above. Scammers are not willing to provide all the information it requires.

<< Side note: if your mail order customer calls and is in a big hurry for the coin i.e. they say it's for a birthday and needs to be overnighted, I'd be very careful. Seems a lot of the con artists try to rush the transaction to force the merchant to do things they normally wouldn't do. >>

Jay is right on target. The vast majority of the fraud attempts I get through my cart ask for expedited shipping.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · September 10, 2004 4:55AM

surely this problem isn't unique to the smarmy world of the coin dealer....

btw, very valuable thread, i'm printing it out for future reference!

K S

ScarsdaleCoin · September 10, 2004 5:27AM

DONT TAKE CREDIT CARDS....

kranky · September 10, 2004 5:53AM

I think your best approach is to just minimize the risk. Only accept CC from people you know, or people who can supply references. Only ship to the billing address on the card. Yes, that will exclude some legit customers, but it will probably screen out all the scammers.

dorancoins · September 10, 2004 9:34AM

Even with every precaution in the book, some goomba is going to try some illegal way to scam honest coin dealers like us. I think that Russ's idea could be good, but everyone else on this forum might either agree or disagree. You can reject credit cards, but at the risk of losing customers. Remember that Visa, MasterCard, and other credit card companies and the issuing banks are getting stornger on protecting their cardholders such as buyer protection, and as a result, fraud is happening. I think that in time the credit card companies will take a hard look at this, and possibly do something about it. But for now, dealers like myself will have to be vigilant in accepting credit cards, either by PayPal or in person.

littlejohn · September 10, 2004 9:48AM

hi
DONT TAKE CREDIT CARDS.... take
paypal & post office money order only!!!
john combs

100proof1957 · September 10, 2004 10:24AM

Many good suggestions !

At a show,imprint the card,get a sig and check id,i believe in Cal it is illegle to write down the DL number,but you may check the sig on the back of the card to the DL.

Via ebay using Paypal should be pretty safe.

Most disputes are covered under federal consumer protection laws,the consumer can protest by phone,but to protect his rights he must also protest in writing,the bank sends the paperwork to the consumer,the dealer will be notified and has 30 days to respond.

The laws are different if the buyer lives within 50 miles of the seller.

If you take a CC over the phone and ship to any addy other than the billing addy you are prolly stuck !

Start a list of Bank CC phone numbers,when you get a call on the phone,ask for the bank name and the cvc code on the back,last 3 digits on the card,you should be able to call that bank and verify the billing addy.

I did get an EMAIL recently about the latest scam !

You get a call from a TTY operator (if you dont know,thats a service for the hearing impaired,the caller types on a special phone and the operator speaks to you,you reply and the operator types back to the caller) they give you a stolen or fraudulent CC and ask you to ship to other than the billing ADDY.

Just my buck and a quarter !

Proof

Russ · September 10, 2004 10:39AM

<< You get a call from a TTY operator (if you dont know,thats a service for the hearing impaired,the caller types on a special phone and the operator speaks to you,you reply and the operator types back to the caller) they give you a stolen or fraudulent CC and ask you to ship to other than the billing ADDY. >>

Yep, that and internet relay are two very popular methods with slimeballs. I will no longer even accept internet relay calls.

Russ, NCNE

UncleWiggly · September 10, 2004 11:56AM

All the reasons not to take credit cards are scarey and for real. But, they generate so much of the sales. If you get ripped off, can't you declare the theft at the end of the year for tax purposes?

For me I only want to pay by credit card when I don't know who it is, or better yet no one on this board knows who it is.

I think for dealers with a first time customer with no references, it's coming down to what Russ said. Postal Money Orders. And a hold on personal checks, money orders sold by convience stores, and cashiers checks. Especially cashiers checks from brand name banks like Wells Fargo, i.e. nationwide banks. Their cashiers checks are more likely to be counterfeited than a one branch bank in my little area.

But, take out all the credit cards from the coin market place and I doubt we'd have had the run up bull market in coins.

Credit cards are here to stay in the coin market place. Those of you who take them are going to sell more of your inventory than if you didn't take them. Maybe I'm off on that but this is fact. You'll miss most if not all the "IMPULSE BUYS" I'll stick my neck out and say half of all sales in the current coin market run up have been impulse buys from newbies and oldies alike.

Jerry

Russ · September 10, 2004 12:00PM

<< If you get ripped off, can't you declare the theft at the end of the year for tax purposes? >>

Yes, but you still lose 70% or so of the value of the item stolen. A tax deduction is little compensation.

Russ, NCNE

EVillageProwler · September 10, 2004 12:29PM

Don't worry about losing a customer who doesn't understand why you must ship to the BILLING address, as well as any other reasonable precautions.

If the potential customer doesn't accept your need for these precautions, then he's probably not going to be a good customer anyway...

EVP

UncleWiggly · September 10, 2004 1:13PM

<< 

<< If you get ripped off, can't you declare the theft at the end of the year for tax purposes? >>

Yes, but you still lose 70% or so of the value of the item stolen. A tax deduction is little compensation.

Russ, NCNE >>

I didn't know it was that bad.

Jerry

BaronVonBaugh · September 10, 2004 1:46PM

An additional safeguard at a show could be using a digital camera to take a picture as proof of who made the purchase. I would prefer that over waiting for you to send me the coin in the mail. When I make a purchase I want to take it with me! Personnally, I never spend more at a show than I can cover with cash anyway.

littlejohn · September 11, 2004 2:03AM

UncleWiggly
Veteran

Posts: 592
Joined: May 2004
Friday September 10, 2004 9:56 PM (NEW!)

All the reasons not to take credit cards are scarey and for real. But, they generate so much of the sales. If you get ripped off, can't you declare the theft at the end of the year for tax purposes?

For me I only want to pay by credit card when I don't know who it is, or better yet no one on this board knows who it is.

I think for dealers with a first time customer with no references, it's coming down to what Russ said. Postal Money Orders. And a hold on personal checks, money orders sold by convience stores, and cashiers checks. Especially cashiers checks from brand name banks like Wells Fargo, i.e. nationwide banks. Their cashiers checks are more likely to be counterfeited than a one branch bank in my little area.

But, take out all the credit cards from the coin market place and I doubt we'd have had the run up bull market in coins.

Credit cards are here to stay in the coin market place. Those of you who take them are going to sell more of your inventory than if you didn't take them. Maybe I'm off on that but this is fact. You'll miss most if not all the "IMPULSE BUYS" I'll stick my neck out and say half of all sales in the current coin market run up have been impulse buys from newbies and oldies alike.

Jerry

Reply Quote Top
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT I GOT OVER $10.000 DOLLAR WORTH OF COINS IN THE LAST 30 DAYS ALONE,NONE WITH A CC.ALL PAYPAL OR POST OFFICE MONEY ORDER.!!!
LITTLEJOHN

UncleWiggly · September 11, 2004 2:20AM

Littlejohn

I'm not sure what you are asking me.

Jerry

JrGMan2004 · September 11, 2004 2:51AM

<< Littlejohn

I'm not sure what you are asking me.

Jerry >>

Here, a little punctuation that might clear things up for you...

"HI
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT? I GOT OVER $10,000 DOLLAR WORTH OF COINS IN THE LAST 30 DAYS ALONE, and NONE WITH A CC. ALL with PAYPAL OR POST OFFICE MONEY ORDER.!!!
LITTLEJOHN"

My answer is... the fact is... most people prefer the ease of a credit card... it can be a free short term loan... I don't have a credit card, but I have a check card which I use with PayPal... and unless I REALLY REALLY REALLY want the coin, I'll skip over an auction that doesn't accept CC Payments... why should I wait for 4 days for an E-Check to clear or money to move to my account, when I can just basically have it taken directly out of my account and paid for? I like the convenience, and I accept their fees as being payment for my time...

littlejohn · September 11, 2004 3:02AM

HI
I AM A POWER SELLER ON EBAY,AND I TAKE NO CC.I DO NOT HAVE ANY TROBLE SELLING BY COINS.YOU MITE LIKE THE convenience BUT MOST OF US SELLER ARE VERY TIRED,OF BEING RIP OFF.
AND CC IS A WAY THAT SCAM ARE BEING DONE.
LITTLEJOHN

JrGMan2004 · September 11, 2004 3:03AM

I may not be a Power Seller... but I've sold a bit on EBay... never had a problem... only thing I don't take... is Personal Checks and Cash...

littlejohn · September 11, 2004 3:10AM

HI
WELL WHEN ,I WAS TAKEING CC.I GOT RIP OFF ABOUT 6 TIMES IN 3 YEARS.FOR A LOT OF MONEY. DON'T BE SURPRISE IF MOREL SELLER STOP TAKEING THEM,BECAUSE MORE AND MORE POPLE ARE DOING SCAM AND RIP OFF.
LITTLEJOHN

UncleWiggly · September 11, 2004 3:17AM

If you have a physical coin shop, or a website with your inventory listed, credit cards are going to help your sales. I'm not talking about being a buyer I'm talking sales.

Jerry

Russ · September 11, 2004 3:32AM

<< HI
I AM A POWER SELLER ON EBAY,AND I TAKE NO CC.I DO NOT HAVE ANY TROBLE SELLING BY COINS.YOU MITE LIKE THE convenience BUT MOST OF US SELLER ARE VERY TIRED,OF BEING RIP OFF.
AND CC IS A WAY THAT SCAM ARE BEING DONE.
LITTLEJOHN >>

I THINK I MAY HAVE COME ACROSS SOME OF YOUR AUCTIONS SINCE YOUR POSTS HERE SEEM VERY FAMILIAR IN THE WAY THE GRAMMAR PUNCUATION AND SPELLING ARE PRESENTED WHEN YOU RESPOND TO QUESTIONS AND ASK QUESTIONS AND COMMUNICATE ABOUT ISSUES WITH OTHER FORUM MEMBERS WITH WHOM YOU ARE DISCUCSSING THINGS IN THIS THREAD THAT IS TALKING ABOUT THE HAZZARDS OF ACCEPTING CREDIT CARDS AND WAYS FOR A COIN DEALER TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CHARGEBACKS AND SCAMS THAT ARE A REAL PROBLEM THESE DAYS BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY SLIMEY PEOPLE IN THIS DANGEROUS WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE WHO WILL TRY TO STEAL FROM US BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD.

BTW, are you an AOL user?

Russ, NCNE

littlejohn · September 11, 2004 3:34AM

NOT GOING TO HELP MY SELLS , BECAUSE I NOT GOING TO TAKE THEM. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY COINS ,YOU HAVE TO SELL JUST TO MAKE UP THE LOST MONEY. EVEN IF I MAKE IT UP IN NEW SELL. I WOULD NOT MAKE A THING ON MANY MANY COINS. JUST TO GET EVEN ON THAT ONE. AND BY THE TIME I GOT IT MADE BACK UP. YOU GET HIT AGAIN. NO WAY WILL I EVER TAKE CC AGAIN. I NOT TRYING TO FIGHT WITH YOU. I AM TELLING IT AS IT IS!!!!!!
LITTLEJOHN
THIS WILL BE MY LAST REPLAY TO YOU.BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET IT..
SO GO SELL A LOTS OF COINS ON EBAY,AND TAKE THEM CC.SEE FOR YOUSELF WHAT HAPPNS.!!

P.S. I SELL MOSLY HIGH DOLLAR, GOLD COINS TOO.NO TROBLE HERE,WITHOUT CC.

UncleWiggly · September 11, 2004 4:08AM

Now what the hell is going on.

Jerry

sliderider · September 11, 2004 4:14AM

The signed form that Russ uses is a good beginning to prevent CC fraud. The only problem is, it is only convenient to use in face to face transactions. Try mailing one out to an ebay bidder or a mail order customer and explaining to them that they have to fill it out, sign it and mail it back before you will ship their coin to them. Your negative feedbacks will skyrocket.

Russ · September 11, 2004 5:04AM

<< The only problem is, it is only convenient to use in face to face transactions. Try mailing one out to an ebay bidder or a mail order customer and explaining to them that they have to fill it out, sign it and mail it back before you will ship their coin to them. Your negative feedbacks will skyrocket. >>

That's why, as I noted, you should ship only to the billing address of the credit card and make sure the item is signed for. The form is only for face to face transactions when one does not have an electronic terminal to swipe the card.

Russ, NCNE

Askari · September 11, 2004 9:06AM

There have certainly been some good suggestions here! It's really sad, though, that it's become so necessary to take exceptional measures to protect yourself.

BAJJERFAN · September 12, 2004 12:03AM

Another reason NOT to upgrade a PeePal account if you are merely a casual user.

Also do the CC reporting agencies keep and disclose a record of a cardholder's chargeback history? Should PreyPal be required to provide this info before you accept a CC payment and give you a chance to accept or deny a buyer's payment based on that history?

100proof1957 · September 12, 2004 12:23AM

I thought DOOP was here for a minute there !

RBinTex · September 12, 2004 3:25AM

"I THINK I MAY HAVE COME ACROSS SOME OF YOUR AUCTIONS SINCE YOUR POSTS HERE SEEM VERY FAMILIAR IN THE WAY THE GRAMMAR PUNCUATION AND SPELLING ARE PRESENTED WHEN YOU RESPOND TO QUESTIONS AND ASK QUESTIONS AND COMMUNICATE ABOUT ISSUES WITH OTHER FORUM MEMBERS WITH WHOM YOU ARE DISCUCSSING THINGS IN THIS THREAD THAT IS TALKING ABOUT THE HAZZARDS OF ACCEPTING CREDIT CARDS AND WAYS FOR A COIN DEALER TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CHARGEBACKS AND SCAMS THAT ARE A REAL PROBLEM THESE DAYS BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY SLIMEY PEOPLE IN THIS DANGEROUS WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE WHO WILL TRY TO STEAL FROM US BECAUSE THEY ARE BAD."

GREAT REPLICASHUN OF THERE RIGHTING STILE

Anyway, you can always e-mail the form or fax it. Why mail it? In addition, if you DO have a non-swipe account you ARE afforded extra protection from mastercard/visa (don't know about other cards). If on the other hand you have only been approved as a swipe merchant and you then violate your merchant agreement by processing non-swipe transactions you then run the risk of being at a serious disadvantage if a non-swipe transaction goes bad as well as the chance they'll (the bank) cancel you merchant account altogether. Shipping to the billing address ONLY does add an extra layer of protection as well as being set up to verify that the address they tell you is the billing address actually is. You also should get set up to check the "CV V 2" (extra space between the V's 'cause they looked like a "W" without it) code on the back of their card as well which is the last 3 digits in the signature panel of a mastercard or visa. With AMEX it is the same as the 4 digits to the upper right of the raised card number on the front of the card. In short, there are many things you can do to minimize the risks to the point that it would be a REALLY poor business decision to NOT accept credit cards.

Want more info? Just PM me.

BigAlan · September 12, 2004 2:28PM

Great ideas here. I think when I buy my next house I'll use a credit card and...

smprfi · September 12, 2004 11:02PM

<< Dennis,

I've been accepting credit cards for quite some time and I can tell you that, yes, your bank reps are correct that anybody can file a chargeback. There are a couple of ways to protect yourself, though.

First, you can require that the coin be shipped and not taken with at the time of sale at the show. Then ship ONLY to the billing address of the card with a form of shipping that requires a signature.

The other is this:

That second one will stop a scammer dead in their tracks. You'd probably want to change the company name, though.

Russ, NCNE >>

Hey Russ you should put a picture of a pistol in the upper right corner and change willcall to will visit.

doop · September 14, 2004 1:56PM

<< I thought DOOP was here for a minute there ! >>

Shut your face boy, my uncle is back in the hospital with kidney trouble and may have to undergo more
lazer surgery on stones or even possibly have to have a transplant or go on dialisis. Mike

BAJJERFAN · September 14, 2004 2:24PM

<<"An additional safeguard at a show could be using a digital camera to take a picture as proof of who made the purchase. I would prefer that over waiting for you to send me the coin in the mail. When I make a purchase I want to take it with me! Personnally, I never spend more at a show than I can cover with cash anyway.">>

Just go to the post office and buy a wad of money orders. Use em like travellers checks.

JadeRareCoin · September 14, 2004 8:37PM

Thank you for the very helpful information. That's exactly what we were looking for. Hopefully the answers in this thread helped others whom had similar questions. I really like Russ' form and, with full credit given to Russ, we will adopt a similar form. Maybe I should buy some Slab Caddies from Russ as a way of saying "thank you".

We already have a lap top with wireless internet that we take to shows. To accept credit cards, we are adding software to the lap top for CC transactions, and will add a card swiper (connects to USB port). We will soon accept credit cards for coins ordered through our web site, eBay, national advertising and at shows. Here's a list of what I have learned from this thread:

* use your best judgement when accepting a credit card. If something doesn't seem right, start asking questions and obtain references.

* implement a standard form for accepting credit cards (see Russ' example)

* watch for large purchases of generic material (the M.O. of scammers)

* never ship to any address other than the billing address of the credit card

* swiping a card and obtaining a signature on a receipt with a "pay in accordance" phrase is preferred

* online or mail order transactions should be processed with A.V.S. and/or C.V.V. (address verification and security code)

* avoid shipping coins via FedEx on a CC purchase unless you know the person (use USPS and have the buyer sign for the package)

I think that covers things. If you can add to the list, please do so. We know that taking the above safety measures will not completely eliminate our risk of credit card fraud, but it will help. We also accept the fact that we will eventually get burned, and accept that eventual financial loss as the cost of doing business. It's not much different than the occassional bad check that we get.

Thanks again to all whom participated in this thread.

Dennis

dorkkarl · September 14, 2004 9:10PM

issues like this really make me appreciate NOT being a coin dealer!

very valuable & informative thread.

K S

farthing · September 14, 2004 10:31PM

Your exposure to possible credit card fraud is because you are processing the credit card purchases done at a coin show as mail order. The credit card companies put the risk of fraud on the merchants for mail order sales. Look into taking your electronic terminal connected to a cell phone to coin shows. This would allow you to swipe the CC and should completely change your fraud coverage per your merchant agreement.
I have seen this setup at a number of other types of shows when phone lines are not provided to the vendors.

Barry · September 14, 2004 10:41PM

Dennis - my congratulations to you for wanting to be part of the modern world. I've attended other shows (eg., computer) and EVERY vendor accepts credit cards. It never ceases to amaze me how many coin dealers are still in the 1970s, mailing monthly invetory lists, no web site, no email, no credit cards, etc.

BTW, we have been taking CCs in my (medical) office for 10+ years and have NEVER had a problem. We have had a few bounced checks over the years, though.

Barry

wayneherndon · September 14, 2004 11:05PM

Try a different provider. In addition to getting some protection, you'll also likely have a lower fee structure than going through your bank. On the merchant account I have, I am protected from chargebacks on phone orders if I ship to the billing address on the card. On show orders I'm protected if I get an imprint of the card and a signature.

WH

JadeRareCoin · September 14, 2004 11:35PM

Wayne, that's a great suggestion. Thanks.

nencoin · September 15, 2004 3:02AM

It happened to us...someone over the phone ordered a $10,000 coin, received it, disputed the charge, and Discover did not even hesitate to yank the money from us. Additionally, FedEx left the package with no signature. We learned ALOT from that incident. All credit card orders over a certain amount (particularly with new customers) are required to sign a credit card authorization form. That doesn't eliminate the potential for fraud, but it makes it harder.

We finally DID get our coin back - we hired a private investigator/debt collector who flew to this loser's town and tracked him down. Spent about two days, but he did retrieve the coin. We had to pay about $3000 to get the coin back.

chris

QUESTION regarding dealers and credit card fraud

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