How does one make an early Lincoln Cent grade ms 68 red ?
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
I have made more than my share of early Lincolns in ms 68 red.Heck,I even made an ms 69 red.Now I can't get past ms 67 red.
1) Should I gloss the coin with coin care and buff it with a camel hair brush ?
2)Should I ask PCGS whether there will be another early Lincoln grading ms 68 ? Even though I've been told their 3 possible answers.Nah that would annoy them
3) Should I give up ?
Any other answers ?
Stewart
0
Comments
My series is roosies and I share your lament. I send "great" coins and get 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 etc. .......Maybe I don't know the right people....I'd love to place my 67s side by side with the slabbed 68s out there for others to judge.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>The impressive part of this post is that most are trying to make "66s" not "68s" .......
My series is roosies and I share your lament. I send "great" coins and get 67, 67, 67, 67, 67 etc. .......Maybe I don't know the right people....I'd love to place my 67s side by side with the slabbed 68s out there for others to judge.
Jeez Stewart, you have more graded examples of MS68's than anybody. Get your 67 back and call the Boss to have the graders compare a 68 and a 67 side by side. Don't they have some sort of "round table" for this issue?
https://www.ebay.com/mys/active
Stewart,
It might not be unreasonable to submit several 68's with several 67's and then just let them have at it. The 68's can't downgrade (unless they want to bust out the checkbook) and the 67's may upgrade. Otherwise it's just a crapshoot. A crapshoot with really crappy odds, that is. I am of the belief that PCGS is snakebit. There is no way they are going to grade pop 1 copper coins at present. As you know, copper grades are excedingly tough to come by at present. Andy and the upgrade artists are probably pulling their hair out.
Jack
What hair ? I think the only 68 red Lincolns they want to grade are memorials or a few dates such as 34,37,40 and a few others.I view those coins as reciprocal payment for a large submitter.After all even they must pay their PCGS grading bill.
As far as 1993 d Lincoln's in ms 68....I don't have enough room in my safe deposit box to store them.
Stewart
Do you think they are biased towards you? If so then submit the coins under someone elses name in a big order. Setup the coins like you know how to and do it at a show.
I bet you would get your grades sooner or later this way.
Use your common sense. The OLDER a copper is, the more unlikely a fantastic specimen is going to show up. How can you compare 68 1993's to 68 1910-17's??? You're talking 80 F----- years!!!! Come on, 1993 was only yesterday. Even 1940 compared to say 1915. They are not snake bitten, but you know what your 68's look like. I have a 68 1935 that blows away any of my 67 teen years. For it to get to a 68, it better darn be looking like a fresh 2004 penny. More goldish-yellow then red.
If you are trying to make money, as opposed to collecting, buy the 67RD 1940 on, and try to getan upgrade. Better chance, I bet.
But you can't say thay are snake bitten. There are now 7 67 RD 1912's when there were 5 just a short time ago. And two more 1916 67rd's recently, and a fresh 1909-s 67 RD, pop going from 3 to 4. And I doubt it is over. But Stewart, you have to stop thinking you are the grader. Compare a 1919 68RD to what you WANT to get to a 68 RD. Again, it better be YELLOW and look like they just made it!!!!!!
Two more options.
a) Buy 50.000001% CLCT stocks. Then, you set the Lincoln grading standards.
b) Start your own Lincoln cent grading company. With your expertise, consistent grading skill for Lincoln cents, folks will respect your grades. I bet someone will be the market maker for coins you grade.
As long as PCGS believes ownership is worth one point, I simply don't know how they will grade MS68 RD. You have to send in the coin you grade MS69RD so that they might assign MS68RD to it.
Just my two cents.
Lloydmincy -I have been buying,selling and studying certified Lincoln cents from 1987 to date.I have seen an infinitely larger amount of gem Lincoln cents than yourself.The additional early dates that can be certified ms 68 red are 1916,1925 and 1926.
FYI 1935 cents are not very well struck.If you analyze the copper mixture of early Lincolns there is more color on early Lincolns.This is called mint bloom,toning and eye appeal.
PCGS is up tight,paranoid and unwilling to bend for me.
I will challenge your 1935 in ms 68 red to my 1911D in ms 66 red
I guarantee my coin will blow yours away.Yes I will bet on it !!!
Stewart
There is no way I have seen more nice lincolns than you!!! I totally agree with you. There is a difference in color at the 67 68 levels for the teens vs. the 30s and 40s.
Stewart, I doubt you would display your set again for the public. (the lincoln set). If you ever do, let me know where. Better yet, I will fly out to see your set anyday, anytime. Even just part of it. I'll take you out to dinner wherever you wish!!!
BTW, I didnt get an answer about that 1914-s that sold. Was it the ONLY 66RD available, or did the STOLEN one show up? (Have they found the stolen one, is my other question).
There was a 14 s that is still on the pop reports that was stolen.It was a lightly lacquered orange peel gem of the highest order.I owned it with Larry Whitlow when it was stolen in Chicago.
The second piece was made by David Hall in 92 and sold in 92 for $15,000 and then again last month for $90,000 to another David Hall client.
I own the other ms 66 red that I have never taken out of the bank.
The answer is there are 3 1914 s Lincoln cents graded ms 66 red.The pop report is incorrect.
Stewart
PCGS is up tight,paranoid and unwilling to bend for me
I would agree and I would still contend that they are snakebit. They are going to be very cautious about copper. At least until next week when they upgrade my 15-D to pop 1 MS67RD
Stewart, are you still trying to get my old 16-P that you bought into a 68 holder? Is that what this is all about? If any 16-P warrants 68RD, it would be that coin. I'd sign the "Put this coin in a 68RD holder" petition if you get one going. Actually, that is an interesting thought. Maybe we could form a Lincoln collectors consortium and petition PCGS to holder coins at grades that we agreed upon. Or, we could give our seal of approval to nice accurately graded Lincolns....
Maybe you should have someone ELSE submit the coins for you. See what happens.
I wonder: Does PCGS look at the pop reports when they are about to agree on a grade? IE, Jack, your 1915-d ms66RD, they KNOW there isn't a 67, correct? So don't they possibly say, "Well, it is close but we can't do it..." ??? I would bet they take the current pop into consideration, but recently other lincoln red coins have added top pops to the pool, so I guess I just dont know.
lloydmincy,
That's exactly what I am doing. The 15-D is being walked through at Long Beach.
Your second comment is exactly my point. The 15-D is a very nice 66, with a very slim upshot chance. I am willing to take that chance for a walk through fee. I feel its chance is diminished by the fact that it would be a pop 1 coin. This is the point you have made as well. They know it would be a pop 1 coin and would therefore be worth a big chunk of change. What happens if their "boy" in the encapsulating room puts a big print on it that develops 3 months later. Suddenly they are on the hook for a lot of money. This is also the reason that they have added two 09-S Lincolns in 67RD recently as well as a 10-S. When they add to these pops the value of an individual coin goes down as does their liability for any mistakes floating around out there.
I know it all sounds ridiculously paranoid, but I have thought long and hard about why PCGS is soooo hard on Lincolns and it's the best I can come up with. You really have to submit a PQ example for the grade nowadays or it just isn't going to make it. Take a look at the Lincolns in the Goldberg sale and you'll see why. Several of those coins are big PCGS liabilities just waiting to be claimed.
Jack
Jack
Why are you fishing for answers on the message board.Your facts concerning an 09s and a 10 s are convoluted although you have the dates correct.
I told you your 15 d has a zero % chance of upgrading.I guess you are trying for the fingerprint in the blue label holder.
Stewart
Why are you fishing for answers on the message board.
Fishing for answers to what? Just making a statement, Stewart. Yes, the 15-D has very little chance, as you've told me before. I just don't consider it to be zero. If I get the print you can say "I told you so", I'm a big boy.
Jack
I dont believe at all why 09s and 10s showed up in high pops because of a potential liability on price value issue for PCGS. No way. I know the 10s was "quietly" in a ICG holder, and for some reason, stayed in it when it sold. Crossed over. It had NOTHING to do with PCGS shaking for future liability. I bet they handle most lincolns more carefully than other coins these days because of their spike in prices. Other than that, I feel it SHOULD be unlikely any new high pops or NEW 68's arrive. Maybe some of those old ICG's, NGC's are laying around to have a chance, but should be rare.
lloydmincy,
I didn't expect you, and certainly not Stewart, to go along with my hairbrain theory. It sounds paranoid and far-fetched, but I just can't figure out why PCGS is so hard on Lincolns. I guess I'll have to drop any radical theories and just accept it as it is.
Jack