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Has anyone argued with David Hall ......AND WON ?


I have been trying to convince him for some time now that I know how to grade a few coins but I continue to fail.Has anyone EVER won him over and convinced him HE was wrong.
Tell me your secrets.What are his weak spots.

Stewart

Comments

  • Bet his wife has.

    Ray


  • << <i>I have been trying to convince him for some time now that I know how to grade a few coins but I continue to fail. >>



    Maybe your grading and PCGS's grading aren't the same and hence you will never win.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭
    Maybe your grading and PCGS's grading aren't the same and hence you will never win

    But who is right? image

    Joe.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stew: Not on grading necessarily, but David will be the first to tell you that I am very persuasive in my arguments with him.

    It does sometimes take years to win an argument but I still lose more than I win with him. But I am closing in the "pennant race."

    I also got PAID to win an argument since I stumped not only David Hall but also David Q. Bowers along with everyone else in an old Stump the Experts contest!

    Secret: Hammering away at Hall does not work. But steady persistence and sticking to your "guns" does. It mighjt take years but what is the hurry?

    I would have enjoyed meeting you formally and shared a few jokes and ideas after the PCGS Registry luncheon but I got sidetracked.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but I have lost more than I have won. And, usually, when I look back upon the one's I've lost [after sufficient time has passed], I see that he was right.
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
    TDN - Most of the time I am right.He will not admit to me he is wrong.Furthermore lately he has been arrogant to me as though I am annoying him....and I am
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Do all the discussions revolve around a particular coin's grade? Grading in general? Or other topics?

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most of the time I am right

    That is a matter of perspective - not an absolute.


    Furthermore lately he has been arrogant to me as though I am annoying him....and I am

    Perhaps that is the problem.


    Step back and look at the big picture. HRH has been doing this for nigh on 20 years. By the nature of his position, everyone wants something from him. If he wasn't able to effectively tune that out years ago, he would have gone nuts. So, IMO, the best way to win your argument is to not want something from him. State your case and let him do what he wants ... after all, that's what's going to happen anyway so why get stressed out about it? image
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    why don't you ask the jade boyz? rumor is that they won the norweb pedigree argument.

    K S
  • Isn't this David Hall's game? How or why should he ever loose?


    Mike
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    You should start agreeing with what he says and maybe he'll reverse things. Reverse psychology. image
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>rumor is that they won the norweb pedigree argument. >>



    I'll confirm this.
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hammering away on all fronts is counterproductive. In arguing with anyone, including David Hall, you need to pick your battles (arguments).

    It increases your chances of success. I am sure even he would second that thought.

    David can be a reasonable fella if you reason with him in a measured way without bombarding him. Slow but steady. Keeping it friendly and affable never hurt either since he can be a most affable guy.

    He is no different than anyone else that I know (except my 19 year old daughter who is NEVER reasonable).
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Does your daughter collect coins?image

    Cameron Kiefer
  • why would anyone argue with david hall about grades, i couldnt care less what his opinion is about my coins, and i dont care about his coins, pcgs has more than proven over the years that inconsistency is their middle name, just send them in, pay your $$$$, and gamble like everyone else, its all a joke to make wealthy coin dealers even wealthier, havent you guys figured that out yet
    when judgement day comes..
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Edited since some people have no sense of humor..

    Russ, NCNE
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    TDN,

    Lighten up, it was a joke.

    Russ, NCNE
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    then again ,why does it have to be a win/lose situation? why can't your opinion differ from pcgs's opinon, & you all agree that it's just fine like that?

    oh yeah, i forgot, once a coin has a slabed grade, your opinion don't mean squat.

    K S
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree, DK. I have a very nice proof seated dollar that I grade a point higher. I did the roundtable and it came back the same. I'll just agree to disagree with the grade and not worry about it.... it's still the nicest example of the date I've seen.
  • I wonder how long it would take to win the "argument" for PCGS to report the pops for ALL the coins that they grade. image
  • MonstavetMonstavet Posts: 1,235 ✭✭
    The people who won arguments have all been banned.
    Send Email or PM for free veterinary advice.


  • I haven't even been able to have an argument with him, let alone win one. I tried contacting him numerous times through various channnels and have never received a reply. Stewart, consider yourself lucky for having his royal highness even speak with you.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    I finally won my first argument (of many) with David, only recently. image

    David had been arguing vehemently in favor of letting Stewart win an argument with him. But, I argued that David shouldn't do that. After a lengthy and heated debate, I won the argument with David, and as a result, Stewart isn't allowed to win one with David.image

    Stewart, have you tried to be calm, gentlemanly, flexible, polite and open-minded in approaching David with your argument(s)? Have you tried any ONE of those things? I know you can do it if you try hard enough. image
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    Based on my limited experience of some PMs with Stewart a while ago, I'm not surprised he has communication problems.
  • Ok, Stewart, you want ALL your coins upgraded from where they are now. WHO WOULDN'T. What a great way to increase the value of your collection while they just sit in the bank vault. If you are arguing your 67 red lincolns should be 68, and 66's should be 67, wellllll. What do you expect?? Maybe you should work in PCGS's grading department. Then all your dreams can biasly come true...

    Sorry Stewart, I had to pick on you....
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • If you really know what you are doing and really believe in a coin, why don't you just keep sending it in every three to six months until it grades the way you think it should. There is no need to get into an argument. If you are an expert in your area and really know how to grade your series as well or better than the graders at PCGS, you will probably get the coins you truly believe should upgrade in the holders you desire sooner or later. As a collector, you are under no pressure to get the coin upgraded immediately. Trying to bully David Hall into giving you want you want will probably just get you to the point that your phone calls and emails do not get returned.
    David Schweitz
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭
    I got him to put down his sandwich at the ANA 2002 worlds fair of money and let me take his pic..oh wait we didnt argue, he was more than happy to do so

    DH gets a big image
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474
    Stewart
    If you can't no one can.image
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While not quite an argument....I did send DHRC some coins for an offer back in 1983 when I was an Inside View subscriber. I decided not to accept the offer, the coins were mailed back, and I sold them to another major dealer for quite a bit more. Let's just say, by giving up an initial offer, a made a better one, and the "argument" of what the coins were potentially worth on the wholesale level.

    And TDN, "nigh on 20 years" is in actuality "nigh on 30 years."
    I still recall photos of HRH looking at coins in the Great Eastern Collection catalog back in 1975 or 1976. And I don't think he was a newbie even then.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roadrunner: I only counted the time as head of PCGS. Would Stewart be arguing with him if he were still a coin dealer?

    MS68: I can see why someone wouldn't want to send a red copper coin in every six months .... isn't that just asking for trouble?


  • << <i>Edited since some people have no sense of humor..

    Russ, NCNE >>



    Interesting comment from the King of Bile!

    What's NCNE?? Nasty Caustic Nerd Expert?
  • Bruce- With that attitude, why send in any coins at all? For every coin that develops fingerprints after being sent in for grading, there are thousands that remain the same. I play percentages. The slight risk that a problem develops on a coin due to it being improperly handled while out of the holder is worth the reward that I reap when an upgrade is acheived. I still am of the mind that the vast majority of the fingerprints that show up on coins after being submitted for grading were the result of the submitter doing it himself when the coin was cracked out.
    David Schweitz
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    why send in any coins at all

    I'll try them once - after that you pros get your chance ... but all mine are silver. If I owned red copper, I'd be much more reluctant. But I can see where if you do it all the time you just come to regard it as an acceptable risk.



  • TDN and David- Stop it! You're giving me the willies. I just sent in a prized Lincoln of mine for a second look. If it comes back with ANY mark whatsoever I'll be sick. I can do surgery on a beating heart without getting the least bit excited (O'K, maybe just a little), but if that coin has so much as fleck of lint on it I think I'll get sick and faint.

    Jack



  • Kind of like this...
  • Jack- Some people have nightmares of falling. Some of being attacked by sharks or other wild animals. I can guess what your nightmare will be tonight.image
    David Schweitz
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can guess what your nightmare will be tonight

    Me, too! image

    imageimage

    image
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Not sure if this counts but the first time I met him was at one of his meet and grades @ Long Beach.

    I had a proof 50's quarter that I had picked out and submitted myself. It came back a PCGS 66/67 CAM. Not an expensive coin by no means, but it had a rather large, fresh fingerprint on the obverse. When I sat down and showed him the coin's obverse fingerprint his response was quite comical (not to me, but he laughed)

    "How do I know that we put that fingerprint on that coin! It could have come from you or even the prior owner. That print could be from a galaxy far far away. I'm not paying you for that coin!"

    My response -- as I slowly turned the slab over ---

    "Okay perhaps you're right, but what about the hair stuck to the back of the reverse, inside the slab -- how do you think that got there?"

    "BJ -- We have to buy this coin back."

    And with that I was paid full CU Price Guide for it.

    Michael
  • Jack - that 22-D needs a plastic surgeon, not a heart surgeon!!image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • SethChandlerSethChandler Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭
    After reading MS68's posts, I realize that if Warren Buffet were in the coin biz he'd sound alot like MS68.image
    Collecting since 1976.
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
    Copper is more vulnerable than silver.It can tone down due to changes of temperature due to heat.Finger prints on copper can not be dipped away and retone like silver.
    The most widely doctored coins are gold.Second is silver.Red copper is almost impossible to doctor without detecting.The only thing that I've seen removed from copper in an acceptable fashion is SOME carbon flecks.But more often than not the mechanics that do this (operation) don't know when to stop.Recoloring copper ..hahaha

    I also disagree with David Hall that ALL coins must be cracked out in order to be graded at PCGS.TO the best of my knowledge during the16 or so years PCGS has been in business coins have been graded "in the holder" at the request of the submitter.David Hall has done away with the Round Table Review.

    Green Label Holders will become Blue Label Holders because David says so.That's it ..NO Exceptions

    What about DNC explanations ? PCGS has not as yet done this because they are too busy making money

    Stewart


  • Newmismatist,

    That 22-D is in a 66RD holder if you can believe it. It would be my contention that it was very likely the result of mishandling by PCGS and that the fingerprint developed well after being put in the holder. If that's not the case, the graders really missed the boat.

    Jack
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
    I have tried 5 or 6 times and I DECLARE IT IMPOSSIBLE!!image
    image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a rhetorical question: what's to prevent someone who really is mad at PCGS from fingerprinting their red copper and having it graded before it turns? No wonder they're a tad bit conservative on that stuff!
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭
    I've generally had success, but I didn't frame it up to be an "argument" hmm ...image
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    didn't someone say that only 90% of the oriignal red need be present for it to grade "rd"? if so, that coin certainly qualifies.

    K S

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