EBay - ANA Coin Community Workshop Tonight

susanlynn9

I am trying to get as many people involved in the Workshop on eBay tonight as possible. EBay is attempting to make their marketplace safer by working in conjunction with the ANA and I think it's important that anyone who buys or sells on eBay be a part of it. With all of the fraudulent sellers and scams going on, I am hoping that this workshop will educate collectors and make them aware of what they can do if they see fraudulent auctions. Please join the workshop tonight at 17:00 pacific time on the eBay Workshop Discussion Board.

Conder101

Can't make it, have a manditory meeting at the hospital.

susanlynn9

The discussion thread should be available even after it's over. If you get the time, just look in on it in the next couple of days. EBay had a similar workshop for stamps and only one person participated. I am just so sick and tired of people getting taken by these scam sellers. I'm hoping that this workshop will help to educate people in what to look for to protect themselves against the scam sellers.

MrEureka

Where do we find this workshop?

ziggy29

It's located here.

FC57Coins

Kewl - this should be interesting

Smitty79

Edit: You beat me to the link.

MrEureka

Thanks for the link.

MrEureka, aka mr1794.

Barry

Doesn't seem to be much of a repsonse from EBay, does there? (w2up)

FatMan

I think eBay ran for the hills. Clearly they were not expecting this kind of an onslaught. I think I will just read it all after its over.

susanlynn9

Thank you so much to everyone that participated in the eBay "workshop". I don't think they expected anywhere near that kind of response and hopefully the number of people who bombarded them with questions and concerns will push them to act for a change. They had a similar Stamp workshop that only had one response in the whole hour. I know this threw them off and I hope they now realize the degree of the problems related to coin sales on eBay.

ziggy29

One can only hope they'll realize how big the problem is perceived out there.

susanlynn9

For anyone who was not able to participate but would like to see the discussion thread, here it is:
eBay Workshop

CarlWohlforth

eBay was only open to feedback for an hour? Well hopefully some big super-duper mega big buck power seller who is also a higher up in the ANA can get eBay's ear. I certainly missed that small window of opportunity.

I remember a thread here with some great suggestions but I can't find it now....

CarlWohlforth

For example Shylock started a thread on a seller who is way overhyping clearly artificially toned Indian Head Cents. This is one thing that is a problem. eBay scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

coppercoins

Looks like just another half-arsed effort on the part of eBay. They need to use the proper forum for such things - a single thread in a forum format is a crappy approach. How about a live chat with a couple of eBay reps, a couple of ANA reps, and the rest of the world? I guess that would be asking too much of eBay. Oh well...

susanlynn9

Supposedly, eBay will be continuing to respond to the concerns raised during the workshop discussion. I guess we'll see.

susanlynn9

I noticed that none of their moderators replied to my concern that eBay representatives invite the members of the committee but do not necessarily have numismatic background or knowledge. I am still trying to figure out what it means for someone to be a "great buyer/seller" in order to be invited onto their special committee. I guess that means that you have to give them lots of money in fees.

segoja

Let's see: Power Sellers are encouraged to be bound by the Code of Conduct for Coin Sellers...Including Return Policy.

This means nothing...just as all of E-Bay policies mean nothing, unless you want to abide my them. The only thing you have to be bound by is their fee schedule.

As a seller, power or not, you are bound by the ancient laws of caveat emptor, which means, sell what ever you like and hope the buyer takes the bait.

FatMan

Quote from eBay in the Q&A tonight:"We believe that the transaction is between a seller and buyer. eBay cares that this transaction be a positive experience, and we strive to make it safe."

eBay refuses to take any responsibility. They use words like "care" and "strive" but they actually have a self-interest to remain un-involved. Any involvement could jeopardize their fragile hands off position preserving their "I'm not responsible for what goes on here defense."

Until eBay loses the big one in court where a jury says "you are responsible for policing your auctions for fraudulent activities" we will see little help from them.

Conder101

One clarification I would have liked to see was

Does this site for entering complaints http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html report directly to the CCW?

I suspect it might and that a lot of the complaints that are often made on ebay are being made via the "complaint against another ebay member" site Apparently that is the wrong place to make complaints about coin sellers now.

Susanlynn

It appears to me from their comments that eBay is getting reccommendations on the CCW members from the ANA. In other words they have gotten volenters and then asked the ANA what they thought of them. (Of course in many cases the ANA probably had no idea if they would be good members or not simply because they don't know them.)

susanlynn9

Conder,
I think you may be right, but it would seem to me that any ANA member in good standing should automatically be considered and any power seller who is an ANA member in good standing and on the ANA Trading List should be an automatic choice. Instead they made the qualifications seem very vague by saying things like you had to be a "great buyer/seller", had to have the right attitude, and things of that nature - all of which are subjective. The worst part being that it appears these subjective qualities are going to be judged by people who do not have any background or experience in numismatics. I can give you an example: There was a seller who was basing his shipping and handling on the book price of a coin and starting the bidding ridiculously low. He stated right in his auction that he was doing this to avoid paying eBay fees. This meant that if you won his auction, you were paying anywhere from $10.00-49.95 to ship one coin. Most of his auctions the shipping was in the 20.00 range. When reported to eBay, they did nothing about it because they don't even know that up to 20 coins can be shipped for under $2. If they can't figure out things like this (that actually affect the amount of money that they are making on an auction), I don't feel very secure in them knowing what they're doing to decide who should be on their special committee. I have a feeling that the extent of their working with the ANA is that they contact the ANA to find out if the volunteer is a member. I do not feel secure that eBay is knowledgeable enough to make the decisions on the committee or to take the correct action if reported. I wish I was wrong, but last night supported my feelings. What few questions were address were answered with very vague, non-committal answers. I had higher hopes for eBay taking some responsibility before the workshop last night. I am beginning to believe that the workshop last night was meant to be used as a statement that "eBay cares" but I don't think people were actually supposed to attend and voice anywhere near the amount of concerns that were discussed. They weren't prepared for that at all - and it didn't seem that Dierdre (who runs most of their workshops) was even close to prepared. They should have had someone run that workshop who had some specialized knowledge in coins. They were were not prepared and it showed. I unfortunately do not have a lot of faith in the process for choosing their "committee".

ziggy29

Susan, I agree -- I think poor Deirdre was overwhelmed at the volume of responses. As she's more of a moderator than a "subject matter expert," I didn't treally expect much contribution on her part -- but I was hoping more of the CCW folks would be there. I have no idea how many of them there even *are*. Knowing that would at least give me some idea of the amount of resources they currently have available to deal with the complaints they receive, like the sellers who routinely sell nothing but fake Seated and Trade Dollars, reported on multiple occasions, and yet never seem to have any auctions cancelled or actions taken against them.

kranky

susanlynn9, you clearly did a great job getting people involved in the workshop! Nice work.

I didn't get my two cents in before the workshop closed last night, but I don't see any need for the people doing the monitoring to be power sellers. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Power sellers are some of the worst offenders as it is, and I would question whether someone that "active" on ebay would even be able to give it the time required.

I think FatMan is right on. ebay has always avoided any problems with bad sellers by claiming they are only a venue. If they start to police auctions, they may become responsible for missing any bad ones. I think that's stupid, but you know how things are. It's easy for them to say they care, but a lot harder to take action.

susanlynn9

Kranky,
I agree that powersellers would not be the best members of the Committee; I'm just wondering if that's what eBay has in mind. After all, that is where they get the most revenue. Overall, I still think that eBay will do everything it can to avoid being held responsible for the scams that occur. I'm now wondering what can be done to educate the collectors who are not eBay savvy to know how to find a good seller that they can trust. For the record, my husband and I are powersellers (different ID than the one I used at the workshop last night) and we have done everything possible to be as honest as we can. There are other sellers out there who have the same morals and principles, but they are definitely outnumbered by the scam artists. What can we as educated buyers/sellers do to help those who aren't? Any suggestions?

ziggy29

Is this blaming the victim? One further response posted just recently concludes with:

"The more vigilant our Community is, the more likely we'll be successful rooting out the bad guys."

Seems the more vigilant I've been, the more I've seen the same scammers sell the same fake or misrepresented junk again and again. It's as if they are saying the effort isn't making much of an impact yet because we aren't reporting enough. WTF??

susanlynn9

I just emailed Consumer Protection at the ANA letting them know how the workshop went last night and asking them what we need to do to get on the committee or what else we could do as far as educating the new collectors. As soon as I have a response, I'll be posting the reply on this forum and a number of others.

susanlynn9

I just wanted to let everyone know that Remy Bourne at ANA answered my email and has forwarded it to the Executive Director, Christopher Cipoletti in the hope that he can provide specific answers. Just wanted to keep everyone posted. Maybe we'll actually get somewhere. Keep your fingers crossed.

coppercoins

If the offenders are not members of the ANA, which they are likely not, there's little that the ANA or eBay can or will do about them. If the thieves have an excuse (ignorance, small print, etc.) they will use that as their reason for doing what they are doing. As reflected time and time again, even in this thread, caveat emptor. Bottom line - if they aren't breaking the law with their actions and are paying their eBay bills, eBay will be on their side of any arguement, because eBay holds more importance in collecting their fees than listening to people complain who don't pay them fees. Whether that's a wise business decision is another topic, but they seem to be doing fine allowing people to take advantage of the ignorance of others. Why should they change their policy?

I can guarantee they are much more concerned about people selling worthless Cuban CTO postage stamps for a few cents or a 1936 German mark that has a swastika on it for a buck (because it may offend someone) rather than the true criminals, those who take advantage of uneducated treasure hunters with their overhyped (but non-offensive) junk, selling it for dollars on the penny because they can. Just another move toward political correctness in a world that cares far more for the rights of the criminals than the victims and turns the other cheek when a real challenge awaits them. We may as well get used to it, that's how the world ticks - you put emphasis on some piddly little thing that you can write a cut and dry rule for and land on anyone who doesn't follow that little rule to the letter, then you passively let others really commit the crimes because they aren't listed as specifically doing anything wrong in your book of rules. You then console those who complain about it and you promise to do something about it, but actually completely ignore the issue altogether because it's not in the fine print of your attorney's "you'll get in trouble if you do this" booklet. "You," in this case being eBay.

It happens all the time in our system, it's called capitalism and it is ruled by lawsuits. Politics is what you practice to keep customers, and eBay does a good job of that. Will anything come of these efforts? Sadly, no.

susanlynn9

Coppercoins,
It is unfortunate that what you are saying is true; and there is a reason why I get more and more cynical as I grow older. But, there is still a part of me that can't rest until I have explored all of the avenues possible to try to correct this problem. Maybe I just like banging my head against a brick wall. It just really p****s me off that more and more new collectors are at risk. I am hoping that, since eBay has started throwing the ANA's name around, that the ANA is going to want to take definite measures to show that they at least have the interest of the collectors in mind. Personally, although I know there isn't a chance of this ever happening, I would like to see the only people able to sell coins on eBay have to be active ANA members. That would give the ANA some say over what goes on. Do I think it will happen? No. Will I try to work for it until I have exhausted all of my options? Yes. I obviously have masochistic tendencies.

coppercoins

My elders have always told me that the best way to get someone to listen to a complaint is to come up with a good solution. I have one that would take some effort on eBay's part, but would ultimately protect the rights of the uneducated people bidding stupid money on junk.

You place a feature in the auctions that allows a knowledged person to send a message TO eBay, then if approved, to the bidders of any auction. People could use this feature to share information on why something is fake, altered, overpriced, or otherwise just wrong, and if eBay grants the person's wish, with a click of a button the message would go out to all of the bidders warning them of what they are getting themselves into and could cancel their bids.

There are a number of bumps in that road that would have to be smoothed out, such as "registering" knowledged people with references to be "auction police" participants so the eBay personnel could tell who knows their stuff and who's just getting back at an enemy, and there would be certain reprecussions to face if they sent out any misinformation - perhaps a second check by another registered policeman in the same subject would be at hand...after two registered policemen agree that the auction is crap and the bidders are being taken, eBay could take the "expert advice" way out and end the auction and notify the bidders with the educational tidbit they anonymously received.

This whole post was a five minute thought put out in words. Really, it doesn't take much, but what it does take is someone who has a successful business and wants to keep it that way - someone who understands that the measure of success isn't in how fat their wallet is, rather how wide the smiles are of their ultimate customers (the bidders who don't pay them a dime). eBay should have some responsibility in this whole thing, but sad as it is, they have a weasel legal way out of all of it - provide a disclaimer in some obscure area of the website and provide a link to that obscure disclaimer to anyone who registers. If you register, you've agreed to their weasel disclaimer and have no recourse. Sucks, huh?

Only thing is, I wonder how they get around people like me who didn't have to read all the legal mumbo jumbo when I registered - because eBay was still a small business when I registered in June of 1996. Anybody else remember eBay before they even had a logo? I do.

susanlynn9

Have you read the link earlier in this thread in regard to the eBay workshop that took place last night? There is a committee supposedly in place. Unfortunately, participation on this committee is by invitation only and two of the criteria that they supplied was the person has to be a "great buyer/seller" and "have a good attitude" - both of these are extremely subjective. Many of the collectors on this forum and other forums have been repeatedly reporting the frauds and scammers to no avail because there is no rhyme or reason to why or when eBay will act. This is a major problem. It is my hope that with eBay throwing the ANA's name around, that the ANA will want to have something to say over how things are being conducted. Ebay will most likely continue to plead "just a venue" and therefore have no actual responsibility. If anyone can force any part of this issue, I would expect it to be the ANA. We'll see what happens.

coppercoins

1. I doubt the ANA could do anything to sway eBay. I somewhat trust the ANA and their good intentions, I don't trust eBay any more than I would bet that an iceberg will land in Phoenix any time soon.

2. Any committee that is by invitation only and uses a limited forum to hear legitimate complaints is an excuse and a political tool. You can take that to the bank.

3. Yes, I read the thread. Unfortunately this is as far as this thread will go. Someone from eBay might read all of this, but I doubt it. I doubt even further that reading all of this would prompt them to act any more than they already have for years. Listen to the people bellyache and console them with one side of their mouth while using the other side of their mouth to repeat for the seven billionth time that they are simply a venue.

What I think you and others are doing is admirable. Unfortunately admirability and nobility get people nowhere in today's world. If you think there's enough for a lawsuit, good luck...but that's about all they will listen to. You can take that to the bank too.

susanlynn9

Although you are probably right, my morals and principles make me have to try. Nothing personal, but I hope you're wrong

coppercoins

<< <i>Although you are probably right, my morals and principles make me have to try. Nothing personal, but I hope you're wrong >>



I sure don't blame you for that. Good luck in all you do - I just hope you are able to realize when you've exhausted your resources and stop before you waste too much energy on it if indeed it is a waste. Who knows, if it actually works all of us will owe you a debt of gratitude. I'll be the first in line. Like you've already been doing, keep us informed.

Signed,

skeptical but hopeful.