Another AT Kennedy Half.
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AT Kennedy Half
Marty or Russ, is this an Accented Hair?? It looks funny to me. It would be my first time spotting one if it is.
Marty or Russ, is this an Accented Hair?? It looks funny to me. It would be my first time spotting one if it is.
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Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
But as opposed to some of the other hideous AT Kennedys I've seen here recently this one is pretty nice.
jom
May he rot in H*ll!
Collecting Morgans in Any Grade
I also love to go through rolls to find coins.
BST
MySlabbedCoins
You probably will enjoy it until you find out what he has done to you.
Guess he'll just have to make another one.
Joe
You bid on that thing?
Russ, NCNE
1-Kennedy
2-1964
3-Accented Hair
4-Glows in the dark
Amazing how 100 year old Morgans and 40 year old Kennedys tone the same with this seller.
Joe
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>You can trust him, he IS a power seller after all.
And the sad part is, ebay won't do anything about it. How long until they get off of this mentality:
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>I disagree ... he is representing this coin, by his lack of disclosure, as original and untampered with. He, since tones them himself, obviously knows better. This is a knowing misrepresentation and a fraud. >>
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
By your logic, anyone offering a toned coin for sale would be misrepresenting the coin if he/she didn't disclose exactly how the coin was toned! Explain to me why this matters? Also please define "tampered with" since ANY coin with toning is being exposed to hydrogen sulfide even if it takes 50 years to aquire its tarnish. I'm tired of this totally arbitrary definition of AT and NT that essentially boils down to "Toning slow good, toning fast bad".
This seller is offering a rainbow toned silver half, and that's exactly what he's going to ship. ANY OTHER ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE COIN ARE YOURS!!! Ebay should take no action against this person and the rusted coin advocates on this board have no right calling for Ebay to suspend these auctions simply because the particular method of encrusting silver sulfide on these coins isn't authorized by them. The arrogance and elitism shown here is downright offensive.
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
I'm sure he us using private auctions so no one informs his buyers, or they probably wouldn't buy it (at least at these prices). I'm fine with him selling this "junk" as long as he states they are AT.
Robert
RGL, I see you've been reduced to character assassination. Pretty pathetic, but I guess there are poor excuses for human beings in all walks of life. I don't buy, sell, or touch toned coins and people who know me can confirm it. To make this accusation however shows you as nothing more than common scum.
This seller is not committing fraud and once again I'm disgusted at the idiocy being displayed here. IT'S NOT A GRAY AREA!!!! ALL toning is silver sulfide, NO EXCEPTIONS. The method by which most of your coins were "naturally toned" in the first place is not known by any of you, so why the hell are you REQUIRING that this guy reveal how HIS particular coins tarnished?? Where is this insane double standard coming from??? Coins are pieces of metal and if he wants to blow smoke on his pieces of metal or whatever he does to them and sell them on ebay, it's his right. I mean god forbid that someone might actually LIKE AT rainbow toning on a Kennedy half!!!
It's going to be a great day in this hobby when a 13 year old kid takes a few AT coins his father left him, and tries to sell them on ebay without a description of how they were toned. Then you elitist snobs can crucify him on your righteous cross and try to get him banned from ebay too. Amazing.
In one case, the seller is unaware, but that is not the case here, and why I favor disclosure (see fraud analogy posted earlier).
I also missed the character assassination part. Everyone can have their own opinion, so take it easy.
<< <i>It's going to be a great day in this hobby when a 13 year old kid takes a few AT coins his father left him, and tries to sell them on ebay without a description of how they were toned. Then you elitist snobs can crucify him on your righteous cross and try to get him banned from ebay too. Amazing. >>
Technically, such a seller should be banned from eBay, as it is against eBay regulations for anyone under 18 to sell or buy on eBay. Keep in mind that I say this from the perspective of being nearly 13. Furthermore, there is a difference between AT and NT, and that difference is intent. If a coin tones, it is NT. However, if a person makes an attempt to alter or expediate the tarnishing process, it is not natural and should be considered AT. There is nothing wrong with selling or buying AT coins, or NT coins for that matter - it is simply a moral obligation to state that the toning was not the work of Mother Nature unaided. As someone has already stated, would you sleep well at night knowing that you sold somebody a car that has been in several accidents with that history undisclosed? In fact, would you be happy if you purchased a car under such circumstances? The answer is probably no, and that is the point here. While I do not think it is grounds for being banned from eBay, the seller should be warned and be required to state the history of the coins in his auction description, leaving it up to the buyer to decide if they are comfortable with the alteration.
The only thing wrong with "cooking coins" is this arbitrary elitist position that it's evil and that people who buy AT coins are getting ripped off and should be protected.
There's no evidence that this is the case, in fact the person winning this auction probably knows it's AT already and doesn't care. MY personal opinion is that ANYONE who pays a premium for corroded coins artificial OR natural is getting ripped off and I've said it numerous times on this board. However, I would never in a million years be so arrogant and egotistical as to attack someone's right to sell a toned coin as long as they wern't committing fraud. This is exactly what's happening here, a gang of self appointed thugs are trying to force someone off Ebay for no other reason than they want to feel superior.
Pathetic.
Gonfunko, the fact the kid in my example was 13 has nothing to do with my point. He enlisted the help of his sick mother to sell his coins. Better? There are still people on this board who would crucify him and have him banned.
We are not talking about a car. A car that has been in an accident may function different than a new car and therefore disclosing this fact is proper. No one can sit here and tell me that toning on a coin is anything more than an aesthetic determination of beauty, and that as we all know is ONLY IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. I showed that Kennedy to my wife, who commented that it was the prettiest coin she's ever seen. For her to hate it, she'd have to be re-educated and taught that AT coins are bad.
would never in a million years be so arrogant and egotistical as to attack someone's right to sell a toned coin as long as they wern't committing fraud.
Isn't this seller committing fraud via non-disclosure? I don't think it an elitist view to enforce proper disclosure. And, as you know, this seller has been discussed here countless times, so I think your opinion is in the minority.
It's not pathetic to want to protect unsuspecting buyers of what they are getting. If they already know it, great, but I don't believe that to be the case. So why all the private auctions? Have a beer man.
Gonfuno, well put!!
FRAUD - An intentional perversion of truth; deceitful practice of device resorted to with intent to deprive another of some property or other right, or in some manner to do him injury. - Taken from a Superior Court website.
Where is the perversion of the truth?? What is he lying about? How come someone selling an NT coin can just say "toned" but someone selling an AT coin needs to give a history? When you sell a car, are you obligated to disclose that it has a $200 paint job instead of a $3000 paint job? Are you obligated to tell the buyer that the bumpers were rechromed last year? Should you detail everything you've ever done to the car including replacing the floor mats? Ridiculous. The only reason NT is more desirable than AT coins is that the majority want NT coins. THAT'S IT!!! You can't add anything to that sentence because we are talking about small circles of silver metal that have no other function than to be looked at. I'm going to try and make this as clear as I can. If you still don't get it after this example, you'll never understand.
IN MY OPINION, if you pay a premium for a heavily toned coin you are getting RIPPED OFF!! This coin is damaged, and the origin of the toning doesn't change this fact. The following disclosure should be put on any auction involving any toned coins: This coin has been heavily oxidized and the surface contains microscopic pits etched into the surface that has damaged the luster. This condition can never be reversed or corrected.
Now should my opinion be enforced on anyone selling an NT coin, and those who refuse banned from ebay? Really? How come you get to make the rules? Who made you the coin-god?
The definition of fraud works for me...he is depriving another (intentionally) from some...property or other right...and in this case, the right to know that it is an AT coin.
I am fine with your opinion, sure, why not put your disclaimer in for NT coins. But I would check your blood pressure.....
If I was going to take your position, I would attempt to force everyone selling a toned coin (including you) to put this disclaimer in his auction and petition ebay to terminate you if you didn't comply. Sound absurd?? It's EXACTLY the same thing except it would be the corroded coin elitists who would scream bloody murder. Now do you understand?
By the way, I'm a paralegal and your definition of "fraud" isn't english. You deprive someone of cash every time you sell something, but to be fraud it must also include an intentional perversion of truth. (A lie)
I think sellers SHOULD disclaim any kind of toning. NT, AT, etc. In fact, I have purchased coins that were toned, but not advertised as such (and not visible in pictures) that I have returned. This is just common sense. Always give as much detail as possible...spots, toning (AT, NT), etc. Should sellers be kicked off for inaccurate descriptions? Nah. Should they if intentionally omit facts? Then I think yes.
I also believe that this seller IS intentionally lieing about the coins. Everyone knows that coins can tone. The assumption would always be that a coin is NT, who the heck would figure out how to cook coins, then sell them? That's the bizarre behavior here.
Just my opinion, no one made me the Coin God
Have that beer yet?
If we ban everyone who omits facts, then no one would sell any coins online. Should we split hairs down to the knowlege that a coin came from a smoke free household? He's providing very clear pictures of the coins he will sell you under different lighting conditions, how much more disclosure do you need?
I think the real thorn here is that a seller is profiting from his own artistic efforts, and a few people who would NEVER consider buying an AT coin feel threatened. He's doing nothing wrong.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
I feel he is doing something morally wrong, as my suspicion is that the buyers do not know they are cooked coins.
<< <i>If the seller stated in no uncertain terms that he cooked the coins to get those colors, do you think he would still be getting the same amount of bids and the same prices as he does now? >>
John, I do respect your opinion a lot and while I agree with your statement I'm not sure I see the point. When was the last time you (or I for that matter) listed a coin at Ebay and said "this coin is guaranteed NT"? I never have and I suspect you probably haven't either. You've let the fact it was TPG graded to "imply" it was NT. And you and I BOTH know that the TPG's grade so-called AT coins all the time. So, to be honest, I don't see how this guys auction is any different that any we've had.
The best way to combat this type of auction (if that is something you FEEL you must do...I don't...but to each their own) then EDUCATION is best. Teach newbies as best you can about the hobby. But to be blunt, if you do NOT know what you are doing when you buy rare coins then you really have no business doing so.
Just my opinion.
jom
I think I need to have my computer repaired.
<< <i>I think I need to have my computer repaired. >>
No but it's quite possible I need my brain repaired. lol
jom
That's OK, I didn't make a point. I may have implied one though.
For the record, I don't really care what this guy does. Doesn't affect me one way or the other.
<< <i>John, I do respect your opinion a lot and while I agree with your statement I'm not sure I see the point. That's OK, I didn't make a point. I may have implied one though.
Well, unless your auction is burried in the middle of a bunch of his. I've seen that and it's sad.
Good auctions get lost in the noise, sometimes.
The word "rainbow" on eBay is now so corrupt as to be almost useless when using it in a key word search.
peacockcoins
<< <i>For the record, I don't really care what this guy does. Doesn't affect me one way or the other. >>
That's true for me too so I guess we agree! Although, for a very small amount I wouldn't mind buying this coin just to check it out in person. I'm sure the smell of it would be a delight.
jom
<< <i>The word "rainbow" on eBay is now so corrupt as to be almost useless when using it in a key word search. >>
I would imagine that is frustrating. I've never searched Ebay that way as I always do a search by type rather than condition or some other adjective.
<< <i>I think this is bad for the hobby and numismatics in general. Again, JMO. >>
I tell you why I think it's bad...is that he is ruining a perfectly good coin. THAT is the real problem here....not whether he is making money doing so. IMO, the buyers are just as responsible as the sellers are....they seem to eat this stuff up.
jom
<< <i>See how interested they really are about being protected or paying up for a nice coin. Been there, done that, it's a waste of time. >>
LOL...figures.
jom
<< <i>FRAUD - An intentional perversion of truth; deceitful practice >>
If that is the definition of fraud, then this seller has committed it repeatedly. I have eMails from him stating both that the coins are naturally toned, and that he has no idea how they got that way. There are many others here who have received the same response to inquiries.
Russ, NCNE
As far as him knowing how the coins were toned, would you state under oath on penalty of perjury that he's lying? Most of you have no idea how your coins were toned so once again I ask how come this seller is held to a higher standard?
I've received the same replies from him- he cries innocence about the nature of the toning, and saddles people with cooked coins that they later find do not have wide market acceptance. Lawyers can argue that he's not doing anything legally wrong, and that we're all self-rightous coin fanatics..... but the truth remains that the hobby continues to be hurt.