Why the Barber mint state series is so tough
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
It is really amazing that there are 3 complete sets in the Barber halves, and almost 3 complete sets in the Barber dimes with GPA's of 65 or better. However, there are no complete sets of the quarters, at least on the registry.
A look at the PCGS pop report will show the most gem sets that can be presently assembled in the halves is 4, in the quarters is 4 and in the dimes---4 ! That's true if the rare dates are all there, i.e, the pops are correct.
So you can't find the date you need in gem? The answer is the rare dates are all hidden in collections that are probably going to stay together for a long time. And the key dates are so rare, even a MS 63 set would be difficult. Anyone thinking about a Barber series, complete as to a minimum grade, should set their sights on a GPA around 63-64.
Caveat: The above references only PCGS coins. Several more complete sets could be assembled if other grading services were included.
A look at the PCGS pop report will show the most gem sets that can be presently assembled in the halves is 4, in the quarters is 4 and in the dimes---4 ! That's true if the rare dates are all there, i.e, the pops are correct.
So you can't find the date you need in gem? The answer is the rare dates are all hidden in collections that are probably going to stay together for a long time. And the key dates are so rare, even a MS 63 set would be difficult. Anyone thinking about a Barber series, complete as to a minimum grade, should set their sights on a GPA around 63-64.
Caveat: The above references only PCGS coins. Several more complete sets could be assembled if other grading services were included.
TahoeDale
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Now, try doing that in VF-XF or even AU. Ain't gonna happen.
It is truly difficult to find highly attractive mint state examples of any of the Barber issues. When I see such coins they catch me off guard!
Dale, thanks for a refreshing post, one which was actually about coins - we could use more like that around here lately.
<< <i>It's been my experience that if somebody had the cash on hand, they could attend a good-sized coin show in the morning and early afternoon and then go home and buy from about 12-15 websites in the late afternoon and evening and could acquire 40 or so of the dates in the halves in MS63+ in one day. It's the keys that make collecting in MS63+ so challenging. The other dates are readily available.
Now, try doing that in VF-XF or even AU. Ain't gonna happen. >>
I agree wholeheartedly! Here's a LINK to a friendly dealer's experience assembling a collection of original Barber Halves in VF. It took much longer than he or any of his friends guessed.
I am working on a similar set of Barber Dimes, and have trouble finding VF-AU keys or semi-keys without problems. I don't dare try the same with Barber Quarters, because of the 1901-S, 1896-S, 1913-S, and even 1914-S.
When David Lawrence wrote his "Complete Guides" on the Barber Series well over ten years ago he mentioned having to buy MS specimins of several dates for collectors trying to assemble an AU set, since certain dates in AU were next to impossible to find.
Thanks for the link to the vf barber set. It will be interesting reading for all interested in the series
<< <i>It's expensive putting together a set of AG3s. >>
Only for the Barber Quarters, which must include the 1901-S. The dimes and halves are still within grasp of most collectors willing to accept AG3 keys. Here's a complete Barber Dime set now on eBay, with mostly G and VG examples:LINK, in case you want them all at once. I completed my first G-4 and better set for $800 3 years ago. The Half set is tougher with full reverse rims, but still doable, with no stoppers.
That's the nice thing: Whatever your bank account balance and budget may be, this is a challenging series!
I always wanted to see if I could assemble a complete set of all Barber coins. I worked on a collection of Liberty Head "V" nickels that was started by my grandfather and that took about 5 or 6 years...the collection is in AU 55 to MS 63, mostly raw and this set is in an Eagle Brand Album. The last coin was found in a local coin shop when I first moved to Florida ten years ago; it being an 1886 in a (gasp) PCI 55 holder. Nice coin and very solid for the grade.
With that series completed, I decided to work on the dime series. A tough set to get in AU 55 - 58. That series also took another 5 or 6 years. The last coin found in that series was a 1904-S in raw AU 58. This series is housed in a Dansco Bookshelf album. The set is mostly in raw state, but the keys are certified by either PCGS or NGC. I also picked up a couple of off center strikes (cerified by ANACS and they run from AU 53 to AU 58 ). Where next, where else, I started the quarter series.
Add another four or five years and the set is virtually complete, all certified, mostly originally purchased raw, then sent into ANACS for certification. I picked up the keys certified by either PCGS, NGC and one date (1913-S in an ICG holder AU 58). I've tried in vein to locate the key to the set, the 1901-S with little success. I have seen quite a few AU 50's, but they just don't fit into my set of AU 53 - MS 63's. I'd be overjoyed to find an acceptable example in AU 53-58, preferably in a PCGS holder.
Unable to locate the last date, I started slowly collecting the half dollar series; the momentum to completing this set has slowed to a crawl over the last year. My signiture listed below lists the dates I'm searching for in AU 55-58. This collection is a mix of PCGS 55-58, NGC 55-58, ANACS 55-62, and seven raw coins I have not submitted for certification as of yet. The first coin purchased in this collection was the 1892-O in a PCGS 58 holder. I have not a clue which coin will be the last coin in this set; some have said that it'll be the 1901-S. I think it'll be the 1904-O. ( Of course, finances predicate it'll be the 1892-O Micro O ).
So, you see I have some experience in the Barber series. Knowing what choice uncirculated coins sell for, I won't be jumping into that arena anytime soon.
The next group of Barbers that interest me are the quarters in gem proof cameo with colorful toning. I just picked up a stunning 1898 from the JFS collection in PCGS 66 CAM. I hope to complete this set before I retire in another seven years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
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RR
I would agree that for most of the dates, gems can be located, though they may not be lusterous, or toned. Many are white to off white, and not suitable for an original look, that most of the collections desire.
But I disagree that Barber half gems are available in all dates, for several collectors have been looking in vain for years (even after the Eliasberg, Pryor and Price sales) Examples are the 1893-S, 1896-O, 1900, 1900-O, 1901, 1901-O, 1901-S, 1902-O, 1904-O, 1904-S. The only 2 1904-S dates presently for sale is a 63 and a 64. I doubt there will be a 65 or higher on the market for years. The 1900 has not appeared in auction in 65 or better for several years.
But I also agree the Liberty seated series is tougher, by far, to put together in any grades close to gem. And the bust quarters and halves are harder, and the early dollars too. All these early series are not subject to a MS gem completion. The Barbers are, but if the present collections stay intact, it will be very difficult until one or more of the collections are dispersed.
K S
Dale I agree with RR here to a great extent. At some point in the gathering of very high-end rare coins the function becomes one of dollars available, and not location.
People that can spend $661,000 for unique dimes can collect what they like. There are so many wealthy people in this market now that there could be sets put together that have never been seen before in very high grades.
I also wonder sometimes if the Mega-Millionaires and the Billionaires don’t do sophisticated deals?
“ I know you don’t want to sell your coin, but how about leasing it to me for my set for a few years so I can put together the finest set, and say listed for ever?”
How about a lease with an option to buy?
If you have a stubborn owner who knows what might fit his needs.
Even people that spend that much on a single coin [half dime, BTW] have to specialize in this market. Very very few currently collecting have no budget. And still it comes down to opportunity and chance. And a willingness of some dealers to not take the 'hostage' route.
Does Laura have a budget ? I know that you do but Laura seems to have bigger balls
Stewart
TDN,
I know we have had this discussion here before, and I am sorry but I cannot see your point about some of these folks being on a “Budget”, Sure they may not have it in their mind that they can buy all the Rare coins in all the sets, but as far as putting together any type of set they like I believe some of them have no limit.
So you have a gentleman that only has a paltry $500,000,000 earning a crummy 4 % per annually. This year he thinks he might like to collect coins since he did when he was a kid, and his daddy did. So he calls Laura and say hey what sets can I put together in the next 12 months for say 20 Million dollars? My guess is that Laura would tell him, “any set you like”.
Does he have a budget? Yes $20,000,000.
Can he be held hostage and over pay? Yes he might over pay on some coins by $100,000
Is that about TWO days interest for this guy? Yes
Does he care about the TWO days interest or reaching his goal, I would say the goal.
Is there anything wrong with having all this money and being able to buy whatever coins you want any time you want? ABSOLUTLY NOT !
You're finally figuring it out. Instead of complaining or wondering WHOwould spend so much for a coin or two, you are now realizing, for some, it is a days interest....
Either they have been dipped to death, upgraded to a just made it 66
or you find a lovely coin with disturbing marks in highly visable locations.
Add to these woes ,fugly toning and a coin with broad flat surfaces and
you have one heck of a problem.
Camelot
I cannot think of any date in the quarters I hadn't seen in gem, but that was always my favorite denomination and I eagerly sought them out. Didn't quite pay as much attention to the halves.
roadrunner
Plus Barber proofs were presented in proof papers with high sulfer contents. Many of the proofs that sat in these papers for any length of time will display fantastic colors. I'm not denegrating the mint state coins as a series, but the proof series is a challenging alternative and can be (with only moderate difficulty) put together with a matching set of coins that are really fantastic.
Expect to sell a family member to get one with attractive toning. Look closely for hairlines on halves. Sometimes PF 65s can look really nasty because of hairlines.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
GOLDSAINT:
”You're finally figuring it out. Instead of complaining or wondering WHOwould spend so much for a coin or two, you are now realizing, for some, it is a days interest....”
Gee Lloyd,
I think I always realized that there were people in the World that had that kind of money, that was really not my comment. If you read my exact post below I think you will see that my question was WHY?
I guess part of that post was incorrect as the final price was $661,000.
So no Lloyd you are wrong once again, I am still wondering “WHOwould spend so much for a coin”
and Lloyd, I have not changed my mind about calling people that buy whole gem sets, just because they can, Collectors or Hobbyists.
“Personally I have real mixed emotions about these sales. I know several collectors that have real net worth’s of around 10,000,000 dollars and they will sometimes spend nearly $50,000 for a coin but in my many conversations with these gentlemen they even think they are a little nuts to spend that kind of money for a tiny piece of metal just because the printing on that coin is a little different than other coins. What do you call a person that spends $575,000 on one piece of metal? They certainly are not a “hobbyist” or a “Coin Collector” in the sense of the word we use here.”