THE ROSEWOOD BOXES...!!
saintguru
Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
I bought 4 of these beautiful boxes. Much to my dismay when I tried to put them in my oversized safe-deposit box (the sixe just smaller than the 'severed head' sized model) I found that they were about 1/4 of an inch too long to get two in length-wise!! It's a 21" long box, which I believe is a standard length? Has anyone had this problem??
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Comments
Edited Saturday August 21, 2004 9:00 PM
Hi all,
is is quite true that wood releases acidic vapors as it ages - this is called "outgassing" and oak is the worst offender in this respect (also, oak remains terribly hygroscopic even AFTER seasoning - a single block of "green" white oak 4' x 4 1/2" x 4 1/2" can hold 31.5 gallons of water! That is 262 pounds!) . I will not hazard a guess what cherrywood or cherry finish/varnish will do. This usually comes up in framing valuable works of art in wood frames. Countless works of art and prints have been damaged from outgassing. Unless this issue has been addressed or resolved and we don't know it, my solution (C) for the PCGS Storage Box is to liberally coat the inside surfaces of the storage boxes with an acrylic "gesso" (not true gesso which is slaked plaster of Paris in hide glue) - the CaCo2 in an acrylic emulsion will act as a neutralizing buffer. It could be black in color and serve it's purpose under the velvet material (compositon unknown?). These gasses damage paper and fabric; I wonder what the effect on the various coin metals will be, let alone the delicate surfaces of a proof copper coin. As I read that PCGS slabs are not hermetically sealed I will never know. I would not put my coins in anything made of wood. People talk about slabbed coins toning "all by themselves" (especially in NGC holders I think I read) - if this is happening on its own from "regular" exposure or storage why expedite the process by storing coins in a concentrated organic acidic environment - such as the PCGS box inside a deposit box?
My .02
Best,
Billy
Hi there, thought this might be on interest. I have no further information about the boxes or slabs - but I did see a post just yesterday about PCGS slabbed Proof coins "turning" once in the holder. I sent a letter to PCGS Q&A but did receive any sort of reply. Perhaps they are fully aware of this since design and there is no issue as it was addressed - perhaps they are totally unaware of it and these hygroscopic organic boxes stored in a dark contained location like a deposit box is a very, very bad place to store your coins. I will err on the side of safety.
I never tried that myself, but it doesn't surprise me. Murphy's Law always seems to apply to everything.
As much as you might hate to do it since they are new, you could "sand" or "shave" off about 1/16" from the end of each box and re-stain and varnish the ends again.
Four times 1/16" would be 1/4", so they should just squeeze in then.
Or I could return them, since I am now concerned that they are "toxic" to my coins as well as 1/4 inch too big.
They do make nice banana boxes, something that will certainly be an attention grabber in the workplace!!
<< <i>oak remains terribly hygroscopic even AFTER seasoning - a single block of "green" white oak 4' x 4 1/2" x 4 1/2" can hold 31.5 gallons of water! That is 262 pounds! >>
Hi Billy-
I think somebody might be pulling your leg a bit on exactly how hygroscopic oak can be. While it certainly can hold quite a bit of water, a piece as small as you stated above cannot hold 31.5 gallons at standard atmospheric pressure. The volume of the piece of wood in your example is about 15,928 cubic centimeters. The volume of 31.5 gallons water at one atmosphere pressure is approximately 132,489 cubic centimeters. So, simply put, one cannot cram 31.5 gallons into a volume of 4' x 4 1/2" x 4 1/2". Of course, if the oak acts like a sponge and expands to about 8 times its size, then it could work, but then the piece would no longer be of the dimensions above.
Just some food for thought.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Yes they might be, but it might be a great way to tone coins too.
I wasn't sure what you were doing with them.
<< <i>
<< <i>oak remains terribly hygroscopic even AFTER seasoning - a single block of "green" white oak 4' x 4 1/2" x 4 1/2" can hold 31.5 gallons of water! That is 262 pounds! >>
Hi Billy-
I think somebody might be pulling your leg a bit on exactly how hygroscopic oak can be. While it certainly can hold quite a bit of water, a piece as small as you stated above cannot hold 31.5 gallons at standard atmospheric pressure. The volume of the piece of wood in your example is about 15,928 cubic centimeters. The volume of 31.5 gallons water at one atmosphere pressure is approximately 132,489 cubic centimeters. So, simply put, one cannot cram 31.5 gallons into a volume of 4' x 4 1/2" x 4 1/2". Of course, if the oak acts like a sponge and expands to about 8 times its size, then it could work, but then the piece would no longer be of the dimensions above. Perhaps this issue has been addresed - I'd like to see in print that they are inert.
Just some food for thought.
Lane >>
Hi Lane -
I am no rocket scientist, and I guess my figures may be way off about green wood, but I looked again on the web and found this bit of info "A cubic foot of white oak weighs approximately 62 pounds when green and 48 pounds when air-dry." ( U.S. Department of Agriculture.Stanley R. Johnson, director, Cooperative Extension Service, Iowa StateUniversity of Science and Technology, Ames, Iowa). That would mean that a single block of oak 12" x 12" x 12" could contain, when green, about 14 pounds of water - that is about 1.68 gallons - perhaps 7,006 cubic inches as you expressed it? The block of oak is only 1,728 cubic centimeters? Perhaps I misunderstand. However, whatever the numbers are or mean one thing is clear to me, oak is capable of absorbing a lot of water - and I don't think that is necessarily good in a closed environment like a deposit box described above. And my main concern which is the issue of outgassing which may be independant of moisture - oak is notorious for this. Then there are the adhesive(s) used in construction, the finish and also the fabric inside. So far I have read posts about 2 letters to PCGS regarding these boxes going unanswered. Perhaps this issue has been addresed - I'd like to see in print that they are inert.
Best,
Billy
She is a conservationist out of Toronto, I believe. The bottom line is, wood containers are not the best environment for storage of 'metal objects'.
Repeat after me!! WOOD contains SULFUR! Over time, exposure to varying degrees of sulfur/moisture WILL CAUSE DEGRADATION. Granted, some woods are lower in sulfur content than others, but why not remove all potential sulfur contaminants?
Repeat after me!! PLASTIC IS WATER/GAS PERMIABLE!
I'll admit the wood boxes are pretty and rich looking, but I still prefer my own collection to be bare nekkid.
<< <i>Susan Maltby has written to this issue many times in Coin World.
She is a conservationist out of Toronto, I believe. The bottom line is, wood containers are not the best environment for storage of 'metal objects'.
Repeat after me!! WOOD contains SULFUR! Over time, exposure to varying degrees of sulfur/moisture WILL CAUSE DEGRADATION. Granted, some woods are lower in sulfur content than others, but why not remove all potential sulfur contaminants?
Repeat after me!! PLASTIC IS WATER/GAS PERMIABLE!
I'll admit the wood boxes are pretty and rich looking, but I still prefer my own collection to be bare nekkid.
Hi there MacCrimmon,
you are about the third person to take me seriously after many posts! I thank you! I agree fully - wood is not suitable for storing metal. It seems so simple.
Best,
Billy
<< <i>Susan Maltby has written to this issue many times in Coin World.
She is a conservationist out of Toronto, I believe. The bottom line is, wood containers are not the best environment for storage of 'metal objects'.
Repeat after me!! WOOD contains SULFUR! Over time, exposure to varying degrees of sulfur/moisture WILL CAUSE DEGRADATION. Granted, some woods are lower in sulfur content than others, but why not remove all potential sulfur contaminants?
Repeat after me!! PLASTIC IS WATER/GAS PERMIABLE!
I'll admit the wood boxes are pretty and rich looking, but I still prefer my own collection to be bare nekkid.
Let's get a few things straight here....
1) All of the toned coins that are going crazy are toned by various things, one of which is storage in wooden coin cabinets. Many of the coins that we all collect have been around for 100s of years and most of them have been stored in paper, or wood cabinets. Also, not all coins will tone. It depends on the environment (heat, humidity, etc).
2) I hear of people having coins tone in a holder. Although I have not experienced it, I don't soubt that it may happen. Has anyone cracked a coin out of an NGC holder? When I do, there is a definite organic odor. I'm not sure what is causing it, but there is something in their holders and it may cause the toning after holdering.
3) Although MacCrimmon is right, plastics are gas/moisture permeable, many plastics are not permeable. This is a science in itself. I will not take any guesses as to the chemical compositions of any of the grading service's holders, but with the thickness and the size of the molecules of the gases we are talking about, it is very unlikely that organic vapors and moisture are permeating through the holder.
4) I see people worrying about wood having organics. What do you think plastic is?
1) All of the toned coins that are going crazy are toned by various things, one of which is storage in wooden coin cabinets. Many of the coins that we all collect have been around for 100s of years and most of them have been stored in paper, or wood cabinets. Also, not all coins will tone. It depends on the environment (heat, humidity, etc).
2) I hear of people having coins tone in a holder. Although I have not experienced it, I don't soubt that it may happen. Has anyone cracked a coin out of an NGC holder? When I do, there is a definite organic odor. I'm not sure what is causing it, but there is something in their holders and it may cause the toning after holdering.
3) Although MacCrimmon is right, plastics are gas/moisture permeable, many plastics are not permeable. This is a science in itself. I will not take any guesses as to the chemical compositions of any of the grading service's holders, but with the thickness and the size of the molecules of the gases we are talking about, it is very unlikely that organic vapors and moisture are permeating through the holder.
4) I see people worrying about wood having organics. What do you think plastic is? >>
hI
I am truly no chemist,
but to try and address your points ABOVE:
1) None of these facts should have bearing on how I store my coins today with the advances in coin storage - I am trying to maintin the condition I receive them in.
2) I believe coins do turn in holders - and PCGS admits the holders are not literally sealed.
3) As the PCGS holders are not fully sealed, it is migration through whatever incomplete portions of the seal there are - not necessarily through the holder itself - especially in a concentrated environment like a box.
4) I think this all a matter of the lesser of evils. I just don't think would represent the best choice for long term storage in a deposit box.
Best to you and thanks for the information!
Billy
I don't think that the boxes give off anything worse than anything else does...I don't think that the capsules are nearly as vulnerable to the hypthetical dangers discussed here and hell, coins were kept in open air in wooden chests for centuries and nobody lost a collection that way.
Fact is, they are damn nice boxes...I just wish they would have been 1/4 inch shorter!!! POINT, SET, MATCH!
<< <i>I don't think that the boxes give off anything worse than anything else does...I don't think that the capsules are nearly as vulnerable to the hypthetical dangers discussed here and hell, coins were kept in open air in wooden chests for centuries and nobody lost a collection that way. q]
I wonder how PVC flips were initially received by the collecting community?
Best,
Billy
<< <i>Magicbilly - I took you seriously. The first time I saw the pop up ads on PCGS.com I thought what a dumb idea to be putting coins into wooden boxes. >>
Hi,
thanks!
Billy