We all have to live with ourselves and I was not attempting to either defend dealers or to castigate them. I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from taking advantage of someone's ignorance or mistake no matter how dispicable they may be. I'd like to think that the reason I had a successful career is that I treated every client fairly and the way I would like to be treated. It really is that simple to me, call that naive if you wish but that is the way I feel.
I do a lot of research before I purchase anything of substantial value, a coin a car etc. and I will dicker with the best of them. In the end I hope for a good price and that the seller made a fair profit too. It was obvious to me that the older gentleman I mentioned in a previous post was looking at sheet to price his sets and not the market. Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you?
<< <i> Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you? >>
Exactly. When I started this thread, I was trying to determine what that point is for people. It is amazing to see how wildly it varries from one person to the next! I hope dealers are paying attention to this thread.... It certainly seems like a free for all! I do understand that it is basic human nature to want to retaliate and maybe that urge is really hard to fight sometimes. I remember I was at a show and some dealer had the outrageously toned nickels for a few hundred bucks and he kept saying "these would bring 3 to 5 thousand each at auction easy." Sure buddy...if that were true we both know you would be auctioning them off yourself. Boy, did I wish he had sometyhing I could have cherrypicked at that point! I just walked away...
<< <i>Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you? >>
Both my mother and grandmother are intelligent enough to do a little bit of research on anything they sell, ESPECIALLY if they're at a coin show and there are a dozen other dealers offering them more money for the coins in question (in the same way, the gentleman with the proof sets should have spent five minutes looking at other dealer's prices).
As I said before, "little old ladies" may not know any better, but dealers are experts in their chosen field. If they allow expensive varieties to slip by them, or fail to price an item at the true market value, how is that my problem? As I said, next time you go and buy a car, major appliance, etc., please be sure to tell the store with the lowest price that they need to be making more profit off that particular item, since everyone else is more expensive. Or do your ethics only apply to the world of coins?
As I said, if the price is clearly a mistake (a 1909-S VDB in a PCGS 63 slab labelled for $200, etc.), or he gives you the wrong coin, then there is a real ethical situation here. Otherwise, let the "experts" buy a few books and do a little research, then maybe they won't be whining on the boards about the "ethics" of coin collecting vultures preying on poor defenseless dealers. <----this last comment isn't directed specifically at anyone, but at the general tone of this thread so far.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
<< <i>Ripping off unsuspecting/vulnerable people is a terrible crime, and those who commit fraud should be punished severely. >>
I agree wholehartedly!
Awhile ago, I started a thread about the possiblilty of a hidden camera sting operation sending a purported widow into various dealers with a very valuable coin to see whether the dealers were honest or ripsters. I still believe it would be a veeeeerrrrry interesting expose'!
I draw the line simply at the collector (non-professional or non-expert) to dealer relationship (professional, expert). Any dealer who is set up at a show has no reason to complain about getting picked off, unless he makes an honest mistake in pricing a coin. My coin education has cost me tens of thousands of dollars. I don't feel one bit obligated to share that knowledge when buying from a dealer. I've never taken advantage of a non-dealer and never expect too. If a non-dealer has a rare variety, undergraded coin, etc., they will get compensated for it. Not so for a dealer.
Don't feel too bad about picking off dealers. They do that to the public all the time, even the most "honest" of them. They could not survive (esp. with a storefront) without buying on the cheap at times. While I consider it stealing when one pay's 20-40% on a coin's wholesale value, they do not. I don't think I could be successfull in such a business as fleecing the public is just not right.
I think the consensus is if it is an obvious mistake/error etc. the dealer should be informed. However, all else is fair game.
Irish Mike's story is very nice and commendable but I would not see anything wrong either if he had bought the sets. I assume this was not an "error" per se, just that the market increased for these sets which Irish Mike was aware of. I also assume that the dealer purchased the sets for less than $80. and $80. was the price that gave him his desired profit. This situation happens all the time and it is a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned. If not, then you would have to purchase everything at the current retail/wholesale price otherwise you are being unethical. Doesn't fly for me.
It's only a crime if you're attempting to sell a coin for significantly more than what it's worth.
It’s not a crime to buy money at face value, or more (as long as it doesn't fit the above bill). Buying material for less than what it's worth isn't a crime (unless you know the object is stolen). And what may be morally wrong for one person, may not be for another. Different people, different cultures, different family, different opinions and beliefs. If I buy an old $5 bill for $20, and I know the bill is worth $1M, it isn't a crime. If I alert the dealer of the bill, and I still buy it for $20, it still isn't a crime, because the dealer knew what it was worth, and still sold it at the above price. If, however, I buy what I think is a rare bill for $50,000, and the dealer knows it's only worth $50, then a crime has been committed. If I bought the bill for $50,000 and knew that both myself and the dealer knew it was only worth $50, then I'm either very stupid, a cop on a sting operation. I would hope for the latter.
I'd rip the dealer in a heartbeat if I could. If you're going to deal stuff, then know what the hell you're dealing.
<< <i>I think the consensus is if it is an obvious mistake/error etc. the dealer should be informed. However, all else is fair game.
Irish Mike's story is very nice and commendable but I would not see anything wrong either if he had bought the sets. I assume this was not an "error" per se, just that the market increased for these sets which Irish Mike was aware of. I also assume that the dealer purchased the sets for less than $80. and $80. was the price that gave him his desired profit. This situation happens all the time and it is a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned. If not, then you would have to purchase everything at the current retail/wholesale price otherwise you are being unethical. Doesn't fly for me.
Joe. >>
Joe I don't disagree with your analysis of what happened or how you would handle it. The poster of this thread asked for opinions and I did exactly that express my opinion. I would not feel good about myself if I had purchased the sets. Its just really that simple. Others should and will follow their own dictates. I would just add that I wouldn't be quick to criticize a dealer for ripping me if I had been going around ripping dealers. I just can't justify in my own mind that there is a difference.
First, The dealer tha trips off the little-ol-lady when she brings in her deceased husbands coins, we can assume that her husband paid pretty near market prices for those coins but the dealer is going to offer as close to face value as he can get,
Second, You can bet that the dealer is going to make a profit on the sale of that ""underpriced" coin as he/she will never sell it for less than what he/she paid for it. So, the dealer will make a 40-100% profit instead of the 10,000% profit that he/she would have made if he/she had researched what he/she had.
There have been dozens and dozens of times where dealers ripped me in buying coins. Either I was not up on the market or I had undergraded a coin. There have been only 2 instances where dealers noted an error on my part and told me about it. In one case, dealer Dave Carr gave me "extra" money over above what I quoted for a proof walker. I was months behind the market and was just quoting my cost + 10%. In anther case a dealer at FUN realized my quote was 20% under CDN bid and asked me if that was right. I indeed misquoted but not based on what CDN was. I had not known the price was in fact higher. While he would have still bought the coin if I raised the price, I still let him have it at 20% under bid ($600 less to me) because that is what I quoted. It's my fault and not his for not knowing what "bid" was. I still made $150 on the coin but it taught me a valuable lesson.
Back when I was in my teens I purchased a rare date seated 25c (1852-0) as a more common 1852-P. The dealer did not look close enough to see the "O" on the reverse. Frankly, the toning was rather deep in that area but he just never took the time to assess his coin. I did rip it for 15% of it's true value. I didn't feel bad about it and expect that dealer didn't feel bad about ripping off that 1852-0 (''P") from some little old lady.
<< <i>Myself? I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I do, however, think we have "sliding scales of morality" that we would like to pretend we don't have! >>
well put Bear. I just don't want to hear someone cry over getting ripped on ebay or by a dealer who feels its ok for them to rip someone. To each his own.
Comments
person. To exhibit these characteristics, does not require a reward or even recognition. Irish Mike
summed the issue most elequently. One does the right thing for oneself. If it means that one will never
make out like a bandit or make a rip, then so be it. Some things in life are worth far more, then material
gain or bragging rights. The GOLDEN RULE my friends, THE GOLDEN RULE.
Camelot
I do a lot of research before I purchase anything of substantial value, a coin a car etc. and I will dicker with the best of them. In the end I hope for a good price and that the seller made a fair profit too. It was obvious to me that the older gentleman I mentioned in a previous post was looking at sheet to price his sets and not the market. Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you?
<< <i> Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you? >>
Exactly. When I started this thread, I was trying to determine what that point is for people. It is amazing to see how wildly it varries from one person to the next! I hope dealers are paying attention to this thread....
<< <i>Would you all think it was ok if a dealer shoved a sheet in front of your mother or grandmother and offered her that price? Would it make a difference to you if she was only selling one set or selling a hundred? At what point does doing the right thing kick in for you? >>
Both my mother and grandmother are intelligent enough to do a little bit of research on anything they sell, ESPECIALLY if they're at a coin show and there are a dozen other dealers offering them more money for the coins in question (in the same way, the gentleman with the proof sets should have spent five minutes looking at other dealer's prices).
As I said before, "little old ladies" may not know any better, but dealers are experts in their chosen field. If they allow expensive varieties to slip by them, or fail to price an item at the true market value, how is that my problem? As I said, next time you go and buy a car, major appliance, etc., please be sure to tell the store with the lowest price that they need to be making more profit off that particular item, since everyone else is more expensive. Or do your ethics only apply to the world of coins?
As I said, if the price is clearly a mistake (a 1909-S VDB in a PCGS 63 slab labelled for $200, etc.), or he gives you the wrong coin, then there is a real ethical situation here. Otherwise, let the "experts" buy a few books and do a little research, then maybe they won't be whining on the boards about the "ethics" of coin collecting vultures preying on poor defenseless dealers. <----this last comment isn't directed specifically at anyone, but at the general tone of this thread so far.
<< <i>Ripping off unsuspecting/vulnerable people is a terrible crime, and those who commit fraud should be punished severely. >>
I agree wholehartedly!
Awhile ago, I started a thread about the possiblilty of a hidden camera sting operation sending a purported widow into various dealers with a very valuable coin to see whether the dealers were honest or ripsters. I still believe it would be a veeeeerrrrry interesting expose'!
I just dont do bussiness with pigs. There is integrity out there, one just has
to look for it.
Camelot
My coin education has cost me tens of thousands of dollars. I don't feel one bit obligated to share that knowledge when buying from a dealer. I've never taken advantage of a non-dealer and never expect too. If a non-dealer has a rare variety, undergraded coin, etc., they will get compensated for it. Not so for a dealer.
Don't feel too bad about picking off dealers. They do that to the public all the time, even the most "honest" of them. They could not survive (esp. with a storefront) without buying on the cheap at times. While I consider it stealing when one pay's 20-40% on a coin's wholesale value, they do not. I don't think I could be successfull in such a business as fleecing the public is just not right.
roadrunner
Irish Mike's story is very nice and commendable but I would not see anything wrong either if he had bought the sets. I assume this was not an "error" per se, just that the market increased for these sets which Irish Mike was aware of. I also assume that the dealer purchased the sets for less than $80. and $80. was the price that gave him his desired profit. This situation happens all the time and it is a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned. If not, then you would have to purchase everything at the current retail/wholesale price otherwise you are being unethical.
Joe.
It’s not a crime to buy money at face value, or more (as long as it doesn't fit the above bill). Buying material for less than what it's worth isn't a crime (unless you know the object is stolen). And what may be morally wrong for one person, may not be for another. Different people, different cultures, different family, different opinions and beliefs. If I buy an old $5 bill for $20, and I know the bill is worth $1M, it isn't a crime. If I alert the dealer of the bill, and I still buy it for $20, it still isn't a crime, because the dealer knew what it was worth, and still sold it at the above price. If, however, I buy what I think is a rare bill for $50,000, and the dealer knows it's only worth $50, then a crime has been committed. If I bought the bill for $50,000 and knew that both myself and the dealer knew it was only worth $50, then I'm either very stupid, a cop on a sting operation. I would hope for the latter.
I'd rip the dealer in a heartbeat if I could. If you're going to deal stuff, then know what the hell you're dealing.
<< <i>I think the consensus is if it is an obvious mistake/error etc. the dealer should be informed. However, all else is fair game.
Irish Mike's story is very nice and commendable but I would not see anything wrong either if he had bought the sets. I assume this was not an "error" per se, just that the market increased for these sets which Irish Mike was aware of. I also assume that the dealer purchased the sets for less than $80. and $80. was the price that gave him his desired profit. This situation happens all the time and it is a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned. If not, then you would have to purchase everything at the current retail/wholesale price otherwise you are being unethical.
Joe. >>
Joe I don't disagree with your analysis of what happened or how you would handle it. The poster of this thread asked for opinions and I did exactly that express my opinion. I would not feel good about myself if I had purchased the sets. Its just really that simple. Others should and will follow their own dictates. I would just add that I wouldn't be quick to criticize a dealer for ripping me if I had been going around ripping dealers. I just can't justify in my own mind that there is a difference.
Taking advantage of little old ladies who don't know better is shamefull and unethical and sinful.
But not a crime.
A life of rest is worth more than a life of guilt and all the money in the world.
First, The dealer tha trips off the little-ol-lady when she brings in her deceased husbands coins, we can assume that her husband paid pretty near market prices for those coins but the dealer is going to offer as close to face value as he can get,
Second, You can bet that the dealer is going to make a profit on the sale of that ""underpriced" coin as he/she will never sell it for less than what he/she paid for it. So, the dealer will make a 40-100% profit instead of the 10,000% profit that he/she would have made if he/she had researched what he/she had.
People cherrypick dealers all the time.
Jim
Back when I was in my teens I purchased a rare date seated 25c
(1852-0) as a more common 1852-P. The dealer did not look close enough to see the "O" on the reverse. Frankly, the toning was rather deep in that area but he just never took the time to assess his coin. I did rip it for 15% of it's true value. I didn't feel bad about it and expect that dealer didn't feel bad about ripping off that 1852-0 (''P") from some little old lady.
roadrunner
answer to the question. Each individual must establish an ethical and moral foundation
that they are comfortable with and will adhere to. Within a general parameter of acceptable actions,
good and decent people will differ to the extent that they will quantify moral actions both within and
outside of bussiness transactions. We live in a complex and difficult world, composed of nuances and
shades of gray. People must strive as best they can to do the right thing.
Camelot
<< <i>Myself? I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I do, however, think we have "sliding scales of morality" that we would like to pretend we don't have! >>
Well said.
Ok heres your chance to RIP a deal. The post says MS65 but the picture is of an MS66. Use the BIN and then Neg him when he wont give you the MS66.
BTW I already emailed him.