Here is a hypothetical ethics question for you all: where do you draw the line between bargain hunt
TheLiberator
Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭
Ok. So most of us on this board have heard stories of dealers ripping off "little old ladies" who come in off the street knowing nothing about how valuable their husband's coins are. I think I can also say that most of us agree that this is a sad and nasty way to run a business. BUT...let's put the shoe on the other foot and see what happens.....!
Let's say you are in a dealer's store and you notice a coin that has been SERIOUSLY mislabled or otherwise accidentaly discounted. NOW what do you do, hmmm? Where do we draw the line between bargain hunting and stealing? What if it is a coin you badly need? What if it isn't? What if the coin was 100 bucks? What if it was 10,000 bucks? What if the dealer was really nice to you when you came in? What if he was very rude? I would love REAL answers...not what we "should do."
Do you let the dealer know what he has?
OR
Do you "rip" the dealer?
This is not a dealer who is a personal friend. We'll make it just like the little old lady seneraio. You don't know the dealer, they don't know you.
Myself? I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I do, however, think we have "sliding scales of morality" that we would like to pretend we don't have!
Talk to me! Tell me your thoughts on this matter
Let's say you are in a dealer's store and you notice a coin that has been SERIOUSLY mislabled or otherwise accidentaly discounted. NOW what do you do, hmmm? Where do we draw the line between bargain hunting and stealing? What if it is a coin you badly need? What if it isn't? What if the coin was 100 bucks? What if it was 10,000 bucks? What if the dealer was really nice to you when you came in? What if he was very rude? I would love REAL answers...not what we "should do."
Do you let the dealer know what he has?
OR
Do you "rip" the dealer?
This is not a dealer who is a personal friend. We'll make it just like the little old lady seneraio. You don't know the dealer, they don't know you.
Myself? I can honestly say I have no idea what I would do. I do, however, think we have "sliding scales of morality" that we would like to pretend we don't have!
Talk to me! Tell me your thoughts on this matter
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Comments
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Personally I wouldn't tell the dealer but would purchase the coin. I have the attitude that if he is dealing in coins he should be on top of things and know what he is doing.
Russ, NCNE
Now if they simply undergrade or don't notice a variety, well then congrats!!
several factors. While some of these have already been mentioned another would be
whether or not it's a mere mechanical error. Certainly a rare variety the dealer should
have spotted, but if it's a '16-D dime identified and priced like a 16-D cent then I'd pro-
bably bring it to his attention and then try to negotiate for something we had been close
on.
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
I ripped a $5 note off of Ebay a few months back. Short story- rare type, 2 known. Last one sold at auction a few yeas ago for $1500. Simply put, the seller (dealer) never knew what he had. Made an offer and purchased the note for 10% of the above mentioned auction price. Stealing, no way. Guilty, nah. Think what you want, we all would all would have done the same thing.
As much as experience, knowledge and funds play their part, competition has a big roll also.
final bid... one penny!
But
Also pick up some full retail flips or 2x2's to assuage the "guilt."
Or if he's REALLY nice, pick up an overpriced peace pipe nickel and give HIM something to think he "got over" on.
for me.
-KHayse
A few months later I showed up for the weekend show looking for a certain commem for a friend of mine. I stopped by at this dealers table because he carries a lot nice original raw commems. The Isabella my friend was looking for was right there in his case. I inquired about it and he mentioned to me that he would sell it to me a huge discount out of my kindness towards him regarding the silver sets. Three things happened here, I felt good about telling him about the price to begin with, he countered by selling me a nice Isabella and I felt blessed by his kindness and my friend who is mostly housebound got a very nice coin for a price he could afford. I'd much rather have had this experience then a profit of $275.00.
Because someone has mistreated you doesn't mean you should return the favor to someone else. At least that is the way I see things. To each his own.
K S
K S
<< <i>SERIOUSLY mislabled or otherwise accidentaly discounted. >>
If you know that they made a mistake, it is illegal and immoral for you to profit from it. Your knowledge that it is mislabeled or accidentally discounted makes you responsible. If the bank screws up and accidentally credits your account $1,000 when it should have been $10, see what happens if you spend $990 beore they catch their error.
Member SSOF
I must hold myself accountable to the same standards.
Just as well I dont want to rip off anyone. Just me though.
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
<< <i>Would a dealer tell an unknowing buyer he's paying 3x the value of a coin - doubt it. >>
Sometimes they don't even tell you that the two IHCs you're buying were previously bodybagged by PCGS and returned by another customer.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Do you still do business with this dealer? >>
Mike:
I haven't since but that would not sour me to not deal with him, only to remember he is out for himself, not me. That would make me a lot more cautious and less willing to let him"make a buck" on the deal. I have yet to find a dealer that would turn down a nice profit on a coin to point out that I should have asked more. If you find that kind of dealer , I would sure like a name.
<< <i>One of the dealers at our local monthly coin show had 5 sets of proof 1999 quarters for sale at $80 at a time when they were bringing $135. I've known the guy only from shows and he is quite elderly and his daughter who has little numismatic knowledge sits at his table to help him out. I suggested to them what the real price should be. Now I could have purchased them and made a few bucks, but I feel a whole lot better about myself having told them. If you look at yourself in the mirror and feel good about yourself because you ripped someone, even a dealer then that's your thing not mine.
A few months later I showed up for the weekend show looking for a certain commem for a friend of mine. I stopped by at this dealers table because he carries a lot nice original raw commems. The Isabella my friend was looking for was right there in his case. I inquired about it and he mentioned to me that he would sell it to me a huge discount out of my kindness towards him regarding the silver sets. Three things happened here, I felt good about telling him about the price to begin with, he countered by selling me a nice Isabella and I felt blessed by his kindness and my friend who is mostly housebound got a very nice coin for a price he could afford. I'd much rather have had this experience then a profit of $275.00.
Because someone has mistreated you doesn't mean you should return the favor to someone else. At least that is the way I see things. To each his own. >>
This is a Hell of a answer and should be read again.
Personally if a dealer had a coin way mis-priced I would ask him exactly what he wanted for the coin again. At this point if he stated the same price probably he would get my money. Thats fair I believe.
Ken
Jim
Another time, at a coin show, I was going through some Jefferson proofs in 2X2's. Just inexpensive modern hole filler ones for my Dansco Album. I came across one that was mislabeled. I looked in a coin guide and the price for the real year the coin was was a couple of bucks more than than the mislabeled year that was written on the 2X2. I don't know if the price was mislabeled or not, since none of the 2X2's matched up with my price guide and they weren't graded, but I decided not to tell the dealer because I figured he might raise the price even if the price written on the 2X2 wasn't mislabeled.
So, what I am saying, is that it depends on the circumstances but that in general I wouldn't want to deliberately rip someone off for making an honest mistake.
What profit does a man really make if he loses his soul in the transaction? GOD sees every deal (from the Seller's side and the Buyers side). We are encouraged to keep an "honest weight" in our dealings (Proverbs 11: 1).
How the dealer reacts to your honesty and integrity is not your issue, thats HIS issue. You can't legislate other people's behavior - but you CAN legislate your own.
They don't have to know everything about every coin in every series. The only thing they have to know is what they paid for
each coin in their inventory. From that they can determine what they need to sell the coin for to make money and stay in business.
You're acting like it's everyone else's job to maximize every dealer's transaction.
Just because I don't tell every dealer the most that I think he can get for every coin doesn't mean I'm stealing from him.
-KHayse
<< <i>You're acting like it's everyone else's job to maximize every dealer's transaction. >>
Not true at all. All I'm saying is that its understandable that a dealer might not know what he has. Just because he is a dealer doesn't mean that he is automatically proficient in all things numismatic. If a customer brings in 300 Morgans and one of them may be a scarce 1900-O/CC VAM its quite possible that the dealer may not know it. If he marks it at a normal price for the grade and condition and the right buyer comes along he may get a bargain. In fact I bet most collectors or dealers never check for Morgan VAMS and many don't even know what they are. How you choose to act on a dealer's naivete is up to you. OTOH when a car dealer marks down a vehicle to a ridiculously low price its probly not a mistake, but instead there is a good reason for it.
I don't feel sorry for them nor do I have an obligation to them because they may be inept.
Perhaps they should sell hotdogs on the corner, easier for them to figure out the price, unless they get a '54 double die "FRANC"
<< <i> ... <I would love REAL answers...not what we "should do."> ...
>>
Good, realistic question & there's your answer. It is inescapable, everyone knows deep down what they "should do", despite excuses/rationalizations. We all have to answer for our actions ultimately. Treat the unjust/just/rude/nice/ignorant/sly dealer the way you would want to be treated if the shoe was on the other foot...honestly now.
Ken
<< <i>Stealing: seeking out auctions that start out at one penny, no reserve. Then putting down your one and
final bid... one penny! >>
Am I reading this correctly?! Winning an auction at opening bid and paying the seller the minimum amount of money that they agreed to accept for their item is stealing?! Don't think so.
As for the ethics question, without a doubt........rip. Simply because, as mentioned before, the dealer knows how much he paid and from that determines how much he wants. Furthermore, being 'knowledgeable about every coin and variety in every series' is irrelevant IMHO. Here's why, I don't care if it's coins they are selling or some other type of goods, if the seller is at all interested in maximizing their profit, it's the sellers responsibility to research the value of the item if heshe hem have no or little knowlege of said item if they so choose. However, if they are only interested in selling for more than they paid and is marked accordingly then it's all the same to me.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
That having been said, I still feel like the victim of the crime is at least partially responsible. If someone offers me something that's too good to be true, I say "no thanks" and move on. If somebody comes to me and says "If you give me $50,000 I'll dectuple your money in a month" I say "Please leave." If a person is so dumb/naive/gullible that they believe outrageous promises, at least SOME of that responsibility lies with them.
The dealer who tells the "little old lady" that her circulated Morgan dollars are worth $2 each is, in my opinion, scum, but that "little old lady" should know better than to trust anyone other than an uninvolved third party to tell her the value of her items. When you're choosing a new product, do you listen to the TV commercials and the paid spokesmen, or do you talk to your friends and see what their experiences are? When you go to a specialist surgeon for some procedure, do you just pick one out of the yellow pages or do you ask your family doctor for a recommendation? In the same vein, a reasonably intelligent person must have enough sense to protect themselves from people who intend on ripping them off, be that person a con-artist or a shady dealer.
The dealer, being an "expert," is even more responsible for mistakes. Perhaps the little old lady didn't realize that she should get a quote from another dealer, or a knowledgeable friend/family member, or (gasp!) the Internet. But the dealer certainly knows that he needs to check the date/mintmark/variety/etc. of any coin he takes in. He SHOULD also educate himself on the significance of each variety. If he doesn't want to bother with learning all the varieties in the Cherrypicker's guide, then sorting them out, and spending hundreds of hours of his time doing this, then he has no complaint when someone discovers a valuable variety in his case. He had the choice to spend 100 hours of his time searching his junk coins for rare varieties. He might have found thousands of dollars worth of varieties, or might have discovered nothing and merely wasted his time. The dealer must choose whether to spend the time searching through his coins, or spend his time doing something else and let valuable varieties potentially go unnoticed.
To state it another way, the dealer has two choices:
Spend 100 hours searching his junk coins for valuable varieties, where he might find coins worth thousands of dollars, or might find nothing special at all, in which case his time was wasted.
OR
Spend 100 hours working for $8 an hour and netting $800.
OR, of course, he could spend that 100 hours with friends, family, etc. Either way, he makes a value judgement. If he chooses not to search his inventory, how can the cherrypicker be blamed?
In every instance I can think of, a dealer who gets "ripped" has nobody to blame but himself. The only exception I can think of would be if he gives you the wrong item by mistake, in which case it's like you were given too much change--you need to return it.
<<One of the dealers at our local monthly coin show had 5 sets of proof 1999 quarters for sale at $80 at a time when they were bringing $135. I've known the guy only from shows and he is quite elderly and his daughter who has little numismatic knowledge sits at his table to help him out. I suggested to them what the real price should be. Now I could have purchased them and made a few bucks, but I feel a whole lot better about myself having told them. If you look at yourself in the mirror and feel good about yourself because you ripped someone, even a dealer then that's your thing not mine.>>
I'm not certain that I understand why it's my responsibility to do another person's market research for them? Both nankraut and Irishmike should remember this the next time they go shopping and decide to compare prices. Be sure that you tell the store with the best deal that they need to raise their price because they're profits on the item aren't as much as they could be
-If the item is grossly underpriced and a clear error, the seller will probably spot it then and you leave with nothing.
-If the item is priced anywhere else low, then benefit from the seller's ignorance and leave with a bargain.
-If I want to keep a friend, I'd tell him the price is wrong before buying.
If I don't want the item...
...and want to make a friend/gain good will, I'd tell the seller the price might be low/mistake.
<< <i>I'm not certain that I understand why it's my responsibility to do another person's market research for them? >>
Its not and no one ever implied that it was. It was just one person's report on how he chose to help someone out. Simple as that, nothing more nothing less.
There are two main reasons why a dealer mis-prices a coin!! Ignorance and honest mistake. In the case of ignorance he priced it according to what he paid for it so I doubt he lost money; he just dint make as much as he could have. Also since he was ignorant of its real value its pretty likely he didn't ripoff the lil ol lady or whoever brought it into his shop. The main question is: if you know a coin is underpriced and the dealer doesn't; do you tell him or do you not? Obviously thats a personal choice based on the circumstances of the situation and your own set of values.
<< <i>The main question is: if you know a coin is underpriced and the dealer doesn't; do you tell him or do you not? Obviously thats a personal choice based on the circumstances of the situation and your own set of values. >>
If it's "ignorance," no, I wouldn't tell him. If it's a mistake, yes, I would. If I misread the quoted post then I apologize: I agree that it's great to help people out, and it's certainly praiseworthy to do so rather than take a quick profit. However, I contend that you would have done nothing wrong if you had taken the $80 coins and made a quick buck. If a person can't spend ten minutes doing market research, then that's on them.