Dipping is not cleaning?
BigGreek
Posts: 1,090 ✭
I was at a coin show a couple of weeks ago (pushing a stroller
with my 1 year old as usual) looking for a nice Walker to add to
my collection. A well known dealer showed me a few which were
very clean but looked a bit overdipped. The grade and price was
obviously adjusted for the lack of luster so I decided to buy a
'36 which I think might have graded 65 if not for the dip. I asked
the dealer if he thought the coin would grade or get bagged for
cleaning. His opinion was that the coin was not cleaned. Dipped
for sure, but not cleaned.
What is you experience with dipped coins going through PCGS?
Would they net grade for poor luster or bag for cleaning?
with my 1 year old as usual) looking for a nice Walker to add to
my collection. A well known dealer showed me a few which were
very clean but looked a bit overdipped. The grade and price was
obviously adjusted for the lack of luster so I decided to buy a
'36 which I think might have graded 65 if not for the dip. I asked
the dealer if he thought the coin would grade or get bagged for
cleaning. His opinion was that the coin was not cleaned. Dipped
for sure, but not cleaned.
What is you experience with dipped coins going through PCGS?
Would they net grade for poor luster or bag for cleaning?
0
Comments
<< <i>No body bags for dipping only. >>
Sad but true.
Ken
Whether dipping is actually cleaning is always a debatable subject.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Ken,
Not only sad, but true. Very sad, but true.
Jack
Likewise, the major grading companies don't always know either, and we'd be asking the impossible if we required that they body-bag all dipped coins or label them as such.
Dipped CAN be restoration. You would know that if you have seen some coins with really ugly toning.
dipping IS DEFINITELY cleaning, since it CHANGES an integral part of the coin. the surface of the coin is stripped to reveal the untoned metal beneath.
now, billions of dealers & collectors will hoot & holler about how it's accepted , been done for years, you usually can't tell if it's been dipped, blah blah blah, but you look at a blast-white bust half, or a pasty-white bust dollar, whatever, you CAN TELL it's been dipped.
ok, so maybe you can't tell if a kennedy half's been dipped but who cares if a post 1950 coin's been dipped? those SHOULD look blast white, but few things sicken me more than to see a totally blazing blast-white 18th century coin in a double-dimple super-whiz bang ms-68* piece o' plastic, when the coin's obviously been DOCTORED w/ the dippy-doo.
so yes, to answer the question, DIPPING = CLEANING = DOCTORING. there's a 99.999999999% chance that if someone's telling you otherwise, then he care's about $$$$$$ a he11uva lot more than he does about you the COLLECTOR.
K S
Would they net grade for poor luster or bag for cleaning?"
If a coin has light toning which is removed by dipping, then PCGS will grade it (no net grading). However, if the toning is very heavy, dipping with cause the coin to have a white paste look to it and PCGS will bag it for altered surfaces (again no net grading).
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>A stupid question. By dipping, does this include acetone, as in the removal of PVC? >>
GoYankees, I don't think your question was even close to "stupid" - you'll need to try harder.
K S
Acetone is not dipping and is not harmful but sulphuric acid- based chemicals are. Never use this sort of "dip" full strength! Dilute it 3 parts water to one part dip, The biggest mistake is using it full strength compounded by the second biggest mistake...not
neutralizing this acid which will definitely continue to eat away at your coin. Baking soda mixed with water is a good neutralizer. Last but certainly not least is proper rinsing and total drying. Dilute/ neutralize/ rinse THOROUGHLY and then dry thorougly! You'd
be surprised at the # of people that have ruined their coins by not going about it the right way! Now THAT is sad but true. I like the Old School method best - Don't mess with a coin's surfaces at all.
<< <i>I take a shower once or twice a day, but I dont remove my skin >>
You maybe should rethink that statement eagle 7 as you most certainly do remove skin. We are constantly shedding old skin and new skin replaces it. Dead skin on the part of someone that hasn't cleansed themselves for several days is what makes them smell.
<< <i>
<< <i>A stupid question. By dipping, does this include acetone, as in the removal of PVC? >>
GoYankees, I don't think your question was even close to "stupid" - you'll need to try harder.
Thanks!
OK, here's a dumber question...
What is the formula for acetone? (ex. Water = H20)
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
Which coins did I dip? Only coins that had surface contaminants that could result in future damage to the coin. I have removed PVC from many more coins using Acetone or Xylene, which only removes the PVC sludge and nothing else. This is called curating. While it is still altering a coin, it's is arguably "curating" and not cleaning.
I know a dealer who was bragging to me at the FUN show about how he sells bags of Morgan and Peace dollars to a "wholesaler". He described to me one particular visit to the wholesaler and described his facility in detail. The back room had 3 industrial type tubs, the kind purchased......quote-unquote......from a restaurant supply store. The tubs contained various levels of dip formulas, with the final tub being a pure water rinse tub. It was a veritable coin doctoring factory. That's why some supply dealers sell dip BY THE GALLON (no joke).
Conclusion (imho): dipping to increase profit is BAD. Dipping to conserve and preserve coins for future generations of collectors is acceptable. Being able to identify a coin that truly needs to be dipped and one that would be just fine without dipping probably falls back to the individual holding the dip jar.
Some say that you cannot tell if some coins have been dipped or not. I dispute that. Take a silver spoon (or fork
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Yes, dipping is a mild form of cleaning. When overdone, it ruins the coin forever...
Dave
occurs on a Spectrum, not a binary situation where there's only two choices, "either it is/ or it is not" and because each coin is different, all the different coins fall different on the spectrum depending on what all happened to them since they were minted and how apparent it is now.
it's a matter of degree
line up original coins, dipped coins, and hairlined abrasively cleaned coins, you can see that dipped is not as good as original untoned (all things being equal, forget about toning for now
and "once lightly dipped" is a lot better than "dipped a lot of times"
in the end, it's how the coin looks to "the experienced eye" that counts.
how to get "experienced"?
look at lots of coins and pictures of other coins.
(edited for grammar)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Dipping is technically cleaning. It is not, however "doctoring". >>
oh yes it is. this is the argument where i've gotten lambasted repeatedly in the past, but let's get it straight, ALTERING A COIN'S APPEARANCE FROM IT'S NATURAL STATE IS DOCTORING. sure, there'll be the same deep-pocket crowd that makes their living on brilliant-is-best dipped coins, & casually pass them off as undoctored, but if you take a 1907 barber dime in unc with a light patina, & DIP it so it now looks clean-as-a-whistle-dimple-doo, you've DOCTORED the coin such that it now "looks better" (to some) then it used to.
that old excuse where "dipping's been accepted for years" just doesn't fly any more, not when there's a lot more information accessible to collectors & would-be collectors who can now learn why ORIGINAL is best, not "brilliant is best".
in my book, dipping = cleaning = doctoring, always, because ANYTHING that is done to a coin to make it appear "better" is done w/ the intent to deceive, & couldn't give a rat's rear-end what plastic co's say. dipping IS doctoring.
<< <i>Doctoring usually involces "adding" things such as filler to hide marks or artificial toning. >>
again, that's still part of the old excuse, a way to excuse dipping & make it seem "ok", by trying to form a distinction between dipping & doctoring. REMOVING what you think is an unpleasant part of a coin, such as it's original patina, is still intent to deceive, & that's doctoring just as much as HIDING what you think is unpleasant. there's no distinction! if you dip the original patina off a coin because you think we stupid collectors will find it more desirable because now it's shiny & new, you are trying to deceive us. that's doctoring.
<< <i>It can also be in more extreme cases repairs and metal moving >>
& that tiresome argument's been used countless times before too. but DIPPING MOVES METAL, so even by your own def'n, dipping is doctoring.
K S
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>yes, as we've heard, in dorkkarl's black and white world, "dipping" is "doctoring" and that's that >>
If dorkkarl was the only one, you might have a point here. This is one area that I just don't understand. If you alter the surface of the coin, you've doctored it. That's pretty simple. If you find it to be acceptable, that's OK. But, don't expect everyone else to think that it's OK.
<< <i>Jack, Ken and others who apparently don't like the idea of dipped coins being encapsulated - I guarantee you, there are MANY dipped coins which you would never know have been dipped. >>
And that makes it OK?
<< <i>Likewise, the major grading companies don't always know either, and we'd be asking the impossible if we required that they body-bag all dipped coins or label them as such. >>
I don't disagree with that. But if you can tell they should body bag it or label it as dipped. All I'm looking for is a bit of honesty. I realize that I probably own some dipped coins. I also realize that dipping can sometimes help a problem coin. If you like dipped coins, great enjoy them. Just don't sell them to me as original. jmho.
Ken
<< <i>What is the formula for acetone? >>
CH3COCH3 (it's a ketone)
-mark
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
"And that makes it OK?"
Ken, I didn't say that makes it ok (or not ok).
My point was, that many of those who are so opposed to dipped coins - and I'm usually not too keen on dipped coins myself - might unknowingly own some. And, as I also mentioned, even if the grading services wanted to distinguish dipped coins from non-dipped ones, in many cases it would be impossible.
In reply to those who have stated something to the effect of "if a coin is 100 years old and white, it must have been dipped".......Odds are, that they are correct. BUT, I have seen rolls and/or partial rolls of (un-dipped) seated Liberty and Barber coinage and in some cases the coins were blazing white.
Frankly, I wouldn't want to be the one having to decide whether an older, color-free coin should be body-bagged because it might have been (or probably was) dipped at one time.
I would however, love to see obviously-dipped coins penalized more often and more severely for their un-original appearance.
My complaint is primarily with high end circulated type coins, gold and rare date coins that have obviously been enhanced in anticipation of a higher grade from the TPG Companies. Take a good look at most No Motto Liberty Gold, not to mention earlier gold, the whole Seated and Bust series and tell me how often you see an original coin in the EF45 to AU58 range? Odds are that most have been enhanced... Let's move on to a more popular series that most like to collect by date. How many original 1892-s Morgans really exist that have been graded by TPG in comparison to those that have been dipped or enhanced? It is a sad state to even have to post this as a reminder...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I much prefer un-dipped/un-enhanced coins. And, I hope and believe that at a future date, many collectors and dealers will better appreciate the (then substantially lower) remaining population of "original" coins.
<< <i>Coinkat, you will get no argument from me there.
I much prefer un-dipped/un-enhanced coins. And, I hope and believe that at a future date, many collectors and dealers will better appreciate the (then substantially lower) remaining population of "original" coins. >>
I agree.
Dipping is an acid treatment, plain and simple. I prefer my coins acid-free!
but you can't take a freakin blast-white bust half & suddenly make it original again. yet we continue to have butt-wipe "dealers" & "colletors" out there who JUST CAN'T ACCEPT a coin the way it looks the JUST GOTTA "IMPROVE" IT w/ a quick dip here, a quick dip there, here a dip there a dip everywhere a dip dip.
LEAVE THE COINS ALONE.
if you just gotta have that blast white look, fine. great! i'm all for you collecting what you like. buy 1 that's already dipped. don't dip a coin to make it blast white, buy 1 that's ALREADY blast white.
please
K S
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Yeah! People shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want WITH THEIR OWN DAMNED PROPERTY, should they? >>
Good thing at least some collectors didn't think this way. YOUR OWN DAMNED PROPERTY will someday be owned by others. Might as well carve your initials into all of those old coins of yours, eh?
Ken
edited for spelling
<< <i>
<< <i>Yeah! People shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want WITH THEIR OWN DAMNED PROPERTY, should they? >>
Good thing at least some collectors didn't think this way. YOUR OWN DAMNED PROPERT will someday be owned by others. Might as well carve your initials into all of those old coins of yours, eh?
Ken >>
Ken,
That's a great idea...
I do that to all my coins after cracking out of the slabs. It's my way of starting my own pedigree. Of course I polish them up so they'd be extra shiny.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>Yeah! People shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want WITH THEIR OWN DAMNED PROPERTY, should they? >>
sure. since you own your house, you should have the right to dump sewage in the front yard if you want. since you own your car, you should have the right to let it dump pollution out the tailpipe as much as you want. since you own your business, you should have the right to skim a little off the top if you want. etc. etc.
yeah, you can do whatever you want to your coins. but if that's so, why don't you just KEEP the 1's you dip? funny how coins usually get doctored, OOPS, i mean "dipped" w/ an eye towards their (alleged) resale value.....
K S
are deceiving us just like .......gasp......politicians do?
Camelot
No, and you know I take care of my coins. I just think "all dipping is bad" is an oversimplification of the subject, sometimes a hazy or fingerprinted MS or proof coin is greatly improved by a dip, just as a nice original toned old coin is ruined by an unwise or over- dip (well, to be clear, not exactly "ruined" but let's say, "less asthetically pleasing to me")
And I think it's ridiculous to equate a light dip of an otherwise nice coin "with a little ugly on it" to dump sewage in the front yard if you want. since you own your car, you should have the right to let it dump pollution out the tailpipe as much as you want. since you own your business, you should have the right to skim a little off the top if you want. etc. etc.
next thing you know, dippers of coins will be just as bad as the nazis.
Look, there are always extremists, those who dip every coin in sight, and those who say "never ever ever do anything to any coin, no matter what"
My own position is in between, and think that the vast majority of coins are best left alone, and that for a few, a little "conservation" is warranted, depending on what's wrong with the coin, up to the judgement of the owner. and yes some people make mistakes and dip coins they shouldn't, and they learn the hard way. And obviously, a little bit of judicious care is better than too much.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>the vast majority of coins are best left alone, and that for a few, a little "conservation" is warranted, depending on what's wrong with the coin >>
i have NEVER argued against conservation. it's a necessary part of numismatics. i just think that for most, especially newbies, the distinction between conservation for the good of the coin is blurred w/ what is good for profits.
that's why whenever another thread fires up about cleaning/dipping/doctoring, i'm not afraid to sludge in there & try to EXPLAIN what the differences are.
if you remove something not part of the coin (pvc, dust particles, spilled coffee), that's CURATING.
if you alter THE COIN, then it's doctoring.
to me, yes, the issue is 99% black & white.
K S
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
but lackluster luster. cough. no patina to the gold is sad :-(
Dipping copper any time is a crap shoot, and dipped out gold, even it is done "right" is often too bright.
Dipping is often necessary to sell a silver coin. That's sad but true. And sometimes as a collector I'll buy a dipped coin because I don't want to spend the price for an original example. Here's an 1858 silver three cent piece I bought for type. It's in a PGCS MS-63, which was the price I was ready to spend on this type. An MS-64 would have cost me double the amount, and more than few silver three cent pieces have pretty ugly original toning.
<< <i>I take a shower once or twice a day, but I dont remove my skin. AS my analogy implies, one can give a coin a bath and not remove its skin. As long as the original luster of the coin remains, I am happy with the result and so is PCGS. That is reality.
Are you saying you're not "cleaning" yourself when you shower?
And if you are doing it correctly, you actually are removing some of your skin.
Joe.
Ok, I think somebody needs to take on his role here- I agree with all that he said in this thread, and he has a good message....
I don't see much of a difference between the two. They both eliminate the all important "Original Surfaces". Although one is done for the "good" of the coin, and the other is done to try and make the coin look good.
<< <i>Jack, Ken and others who apparently don't like the idea of dipped coins being encapsulated - I guarantee you, there are MANY dipped coins which you would never know have been dipped.
Likewise, the major grading companies don't always know either, and we'd be asking the impossible if we required that they body-bag all dipped coins or label them as such. >>
Translation: Since the majority of silver coins have already been dipped at least once, and the grading services make no distinction and often times even reward newly dipped out coins because of their artificial flashly lustre.....therefore no one much cares anymore.
In truth, I believe the majority of experienced collectors can usually easily spot a dipped coin because the are (although subtle) definate tangible differences in appearance between a dipped coin and an original untoned coin for the majority of non modern issues.
If you've ever looked through an original bag of Morgan or Peace dollars, even the white untoned coins are not 100% stone white. Original untoned coins have a sort of patina that can be seen under certain lighting while the coin is tilted and most noticably when the coin is backlit. Original untoned coins also typically display 'hot and cold' areas of lustre which are usually lost or greatly diminished after dipping. In addition, even the whitest of original untoned coins will exhibit small areas of dirt or very slight toning within the denticles or concealed areas of the coin, whereas dipped out coins will generally appear a one dimensional 'flat' color.
While dipped coins usually appear flashy and lusterous immediatly after dipping, this 'look' fades with time and the coin eventually looks worse and worse and many times will also develop problems such as black flecks especially if the coin was improperly rinsed or neutralized.
Prooflike & DMPL silver coins fare even worse after dipping over time and are even easier to spot. Dipping these coins will often times completely destroy a coins mirrored fields over time, and many coins which now appear washed out and have areas of frost within the fields are usually prime candidates for having been dipped out sometime in the past.
Perhaps one reason most people can't tell the difference between original untoned coins vs. the truckloads of dipped out ones is because there are so few un-messed with coins left, that no one has very many original coins to compare them with anymore. I can however assure that the major services probably know 95-98% of the time when coins have been dipped but no longer care (copper excluded).
edited for typos
<< <i> dorkkarl's last post at 9999. >>
This was NOT the last thread Dorkkarl posted to.
<< <i>
<< <i> dorkkarl's last post at 9999. >>
This was NOT the last thread Dorkkarl posted to. >>
Doh!!! You are correct. Someone said his last post was 9999. I forgot that the number of posts shown on old threads change to match the number of your last post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire