Returning coins, a Major sin????
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
While being bashed on another thread, I was hammered because I returned a few coins purchased on Ebay for a refund. Some went so far as to review my Ebay feedback (335 positives and 3, soon to be 4, negs) and noted a few comments about returns. One "regular" here noted that I returned one or two of several coins purchased from him, and publicly announced that he was blocking me as a bidder (thank you). Another poster, referring to the first, said "so-and-so has nice coins" (which is true) and implied that I was off base for returning any of them. It seems as if returning a coin constitutes some sort of a Major sin to those on these boards.
I'm perplexed. What's wrong with returning a coin you don't like?
Unitl the coin is in your hand, how can you determine whether it meets your criteria? Just because it's slabbed by a major service, you still may find that it is not to your liking ("buy the coin, not the holder"). Few will ever buy "sight unseen", for good reason. Not only is grading subjective, but "eye appeal", toning or color, surfaces and the like are important to most.
Ironically, the first board member who blocked me as a bidder (yeah, there were a few), wisely refuses to buy sight unseen. He boldly implied that I reneged on a sale to him. We planned to meet around a major show to discuss a posssible sale, but he decided to leave town early and now implies that I reneged! The irony is that he, who professes impeccable ethics, was in a bind because he sold the same coin twice! But I digress (had to get if off my chest)
In my mind, returning a purchased coin that you have not seen is no different that visiting a coin shop or a show and asking to look at a coin, deciding you don't like it for any reason, and returning it to the dealer with a "thanks". I assume we all can agree that there's nothing wrong with that (well, that may be a stretch). I'll readily admit to doing it many, many times during my nearly 50 years of collecting.
I have an established relationship with several well-known Major dealers who will routinely send me a coin "on approval" or "on memo" before any money changes hands. If I don't like it for any reason, I simply return it and everyone is happy. I've round-tripped many coins this way, including some Major items.
I'm amused, bemused and perplexed by the negative comments I received on these boards merely because I decided to return some coins I didn't like. Maybe I'm missing something. Educate me, please (without personal attacks, SVP)
So where's the beef??
I'm perplexed. What's wrong with returning a coin you don't like?
Unitl the coin is in your hand, how can you determine whether it meets your criteria? Just because it's slabbed by a major service, you still may find that it is not to your liking ("buy the coin, not the holder"). Few will ever buy "sight unseen", for good reason. Not only is grading subjective, but "eye appeal", toning or color, surfaces and the like are important to most.
Ironically, the first board member who blocked me as a bidder (yeah, there were a few), wisely refuses to buy sight unseen. He boldly implied that I reneged on a sale to him. We planned to meet around a major show to discuss a posssible sale, but he decided to leave town early and now implies that I reneged! The irony is that he, who professes impeccable ethics, was in a bind because he sold the same coin twice! But I digress (had to get if off my chest)
In my mind, returning a purchased coin that you have not seen is no different that visiting a coin shop or a show and asking to look at a coin, deciding you don't like it for any reason, and returning it to the dealer with a "thanks". I assume we all can agree that there's nothing wrong with that (well, that may be a stretch). I'll readily admit to doing it many, many times during my nearly 50 years of collecting.
I have an established relationship with several well-known Major dealers who will routinely send me a coin "on approval" or "on memo" before any money changes hands. If I don't like it for any reason, I simply return it and everyone is happy. I've round-tripped many coins this way, including some Major items.
I'm amused, bemused and perplexed by the negative comments I received on these boards merely because I decided to return some coins I didn't like. Maybe I'm missing something. Educate me, please (without personal attacks, SVP)
So where's the beef??
0
Comments
<< <i>If you don't like the coin, return it. Obviously multiple returns will sour your relationship with your dealer but there is absolutely no reason you should ever keep a coin you are not satisfied with. >>
True -- a reputable seller should stand behind what they sell, particularly if they are regularly "dealing."
But I'd add one more point to consider here.
Returning coins multiple times from a dealer whom many of us know, have dealt with and is well known for quality coins, solid descriptions and outstanding images that VERY well represent what you're going to get makes one wonder if a buyer is serious about committing to buying the coins they bid on or if they're looking for an "approval service" -- or frequently overcome by "buyer's remorse." Which are all valid reasons to make a seller wonder whether this is a buyer they'd like to do business with.
[edited to fix typos]
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
"To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer’s receipt thereof or 14 my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer’s receipt of said coin from me.
In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder’s receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder’s receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier.
Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark; b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein. However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit. "
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
<< <i>[Returning coins multiple times from a dealer whom many of us know, have dealt with and is well known for quality coins, solid descriptions and outstanding images that VERY well represent what you're going to get makes one wonder if a buyer is serious about committing to buying the coins they bid on or if they're looking for an "approval service" -- or frequently overcome by "buyer's remorse." Which are all valid reasons to make a seller wonder whether this is a buyer they'd like to do business with. >>
It seems I was the type of buyer he liked to business with. After multiple purchases, he commented that I was "a most reliable & friendly bidder". This seller wisely refuses to buy sight unseen, why should anything else be expected by his customers?? Hey, it's a free Country and I really have no problem with his decision to block me as a bidder (although it would have been more tactful to do it privately, IMO). We both are free to do business with whom we please, plain and simple. BTW, is there any way to block a seller??
Remember, returning coins is not a "free ride". You usually have to bear round-trip postage/insurance costs and attendant packing to return. I believe there is nothing wrong with returning a coin you don't like, for any reason, as long as the auction or sale does not expressly stipulate "no returns".
I will avoid any posts by you in the future!
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways!
Personally, I thought you were upset with the quality of the note but that you were also having a bit of fun with the seller (and the forum). >>
Ouch, sometimes the truth hurts!!! It's a shame others were not as insightful or perceptive!
However, if someone were making a habit of returning my coins and not committing to purchase anything, I can see how it can feel like a waste of time dealing with that buyer... and then blocking him/her.
Is that what is happening here?
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>[q In at least one instance (the note sold on Ebay), however, it seemed as if people reacted negatively, because of the nature of the sale (sold as is) from which you chose to return an item and perhaps in the way you proceeded.
Personally, I thought you were upset with the quality of the note but that you were also having a bit of fun with the seller (and the forum). >>
Ouch, sometimes the truth hurts!!! It's a shame others were not as insightful or perceptive! >>
Maybe they were more than insightful and perceptive enough but maybe some people don't have quite the same sense of humor and fun about threatening to sue people that a lawyer does.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
I purchased some raw kennedy halves - ebay moderns- that were advertised as BU. Well when they arrived they weren't the greatest but I accepted them. Yesterday I was looking at my mint sets under a loop (one awesome set, one moderate set, and one set that looks like crap and actually has a piece of a chip-or some type of food- inside the mylar
Aerospace Structures Engineer
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
When you specialize in a certain area and a customer makes the claim "he buys these", and has the verifiable credentials to receive coins/money on approval, I'll first take the time to really qualify those credentials ( financial and otherwise) and determine if it's worth trying to establish a professional ( Numismatically speaking) relationship, and if so, then send a coin or two on approval. If they come back for a stupid reason, that "customer" goes into the round file. However, "listening and asking questions" in the first communications usually will determine where that contact is going to arrive at ahead of time and save time and aggravation.
In one major dealers "employee manual" it states to establish the finances and then make it a point to just send send the coins and "hopefully make a sale ( paraphrasing) with the belief that most customers have no clue and therefore a percentage of sent coins will "stick". It also states to NOT try to see with the customers eyes or understand what they want but to just "send" after establishing the money. The representatives of that company also have no clue. So it becomes an excercise in the blind leading the blind for the most part and the end results are obviously less than very good and in fact quite poor. But the huge numbers of "leads" and deals that stick make it "ok" for the company and that's all that matters, I guess.
Not for my business though.
The issue of quality absolutely pertains as much to customers as it does to the coins themselves. Most times, educating the customer and getting to the point of seeing with his eyes, understanding his goals, and making a determination whether there is a shot at long term business is a pre-requisite to just sending coins on approval.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
"IF" stated the seller accepts returns ..
"IF" there is no statement as such don't assume you can return the item.
"IF" you contact the seller before you bid you will then find out for sure whether or not there is a return policy
Returns are fine ...
One of the things getting lost here, since it is a coin forum, is the auction in question was a piece of currency, not a raw coin.
MBT - You are still trying to be percieved as the victim. You are not.
MBT - It is up to you to inquire about auctions you want to bid on before you bid.
MBT - A little hint .. If your not comfortable with "as is" don't bid.
MBT - "Crispness" is highly subjective just because you might not think a note is "crisp" when you recieved it. Eveidently, the seller did.
MBT - In the auction there were many red flags which you made the decision to disregard
Is your new found sweetness have to do with the deflamitory, liabeling, character assination you have exuded so eloquetly on previous threads and now on reflecting back you think the seller, who you artfully bashed, might be owning your home in a counter lawsuit filed by him?
MBT - You are not the victim and yes returns are fine .. but not with that auction .. take your reponsibility ..
<< <i>MBT...you are like my EX-wife. One big illogical - non listening - beat it to death - I'm more important - fact don't matter...etc >>
TUMUSS,
I think you and I have the same ex-wife. Her name wasn't Liz, was it?
<< <i>If you are a so called "picky" buyer, then you should probably have enough intelligence to avoid Ebay by now. If you think you are smarter than everyone else, eventually you'll get what you deserve from buying there. >>
I love Laura.
Russ, NCNE
Might have turned a few board members as well. Words such as these are past the point of return.
I'm as picky as they come but have only returned two coins in 40 years.
An auction with wording like "As Is" tells me a return is not an option.
It also tells me I should be 100% sure I can live with it or not place a bid.
Having fun is great but not at the cost of others.
1. A dealer should have enough confidence in the quality of their coins to offer an unconditional return policy regardless. Numismatic aesthetics are highly subjective and therefore its a profession where fussyness is to be expected.
2. A dealer will always get collectors like myself who are anal retentive and fanatical about quality. The dealer has to make a business decision as to whether they want to deal with that person on an ongoing basis. I return no more than 5% of what I buy, Ebay, shows, auctions, anywhere.
3. Ebay has great bargains, but if using Ebay, scan can be deceptive. I recommend buying PCGS/NGC/ANACS only on Ebay.
4. For me, the dealer's ettiquete and the quality of the transaction socially as far as how I "feel" afterwards is very important and probably influences how I look at the aesthetics of the coin, at least a little bit. There are some dealers who leave a very bad taste in my mouth and the stigma of that transaction is left on the coin and I can't look at the coin in the same light. Subsequently I avoid those dealers for life. There are some dealers who are so arrogant and crass, that no matter how nice the coin is, their rudeness and abrasive nature plagues the coin forever.
Enjoy the hobby.
The best words I have seen here.
It's not a game or a place to stir things up.
It's a hobby and not a place for the legal system garbage.
Now when it comes to ungraded paper money,if you buy on ebay then you are asking to get screwed. Find an honest dealer and pay the market rate, you'll save yourself a lot of headaches.
NOW
Contrary to popular opinion "AS IS" does not absolve the seller from a misleading, fraudulent description or a doctored photo. "AS IS" by law only pertains to that which can easily be determined and if the seller desribes the item fraudulently or misleading , the "AS IS" is not an escape clause for fraud.
What if I put a photocopy of a note for sale and sold it "AS IS" ???
I usually WELCOME returns on eBay because chances are I sold it for less than I paid for it.
Unless they have a valid reason for returning it though, I usually block them from bidding - especially if they are a power seller or a coin shop. eBay isn't an approval service for cherry-picking dealers.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I can undertsand people taking the gamble, but I can't undertand when they gamble at full sheet prices. If you can't get a great deal it makes no sense whatsoever to try and beat the odds.
Jay
<< <i>MBT...you are like my EX-wife. One big illogical - non listening - beat it to death - I'm more important - fact don't matter...etc
I will avoid any posts by you in the future! >>
MBT got an excellent response from Mark Feld. That should have ended it.
<< <i>If an ebay auction has photos and the coin is graded by a major service I think it is in poor form to return it unless the photos hid something that was a clear problem. Ebay auctions are not an approval service even if it states "returns." I allow returns only because some buyers are afraid to get ripped and I would be pissed if the buyer was just shopping for undergraded coins. Don't be suprised if sellers shut you out for wasting thier time and money. If you want to shop, go to a show. >>
Bullseye. That is exactly what is going on here. He is looking for rips, and if he doesn't get a rip he demands to return the item, even if no returns were clearly listed. If the seller refuses, he makes legal threats.
Ah..... so, is this the proverbial other side of the story??
<< <i>Ah..... so, is this the proverbial other side of the story?? >>
That's what he did to the seller of the 1914 C note.
My experience with him was a little different, but just as frustrating. He bought a cheap Washington quarter in the legal defense auctions, then left an ill advised feedback comment. Later he demanded that I mutually withdraw the feedback. I couldn't get it across to him that eBay no longer will remove the comments, only the points. He then declared that I was responsible for anything that happened to him because of what he wrote. I refused to be bullied, and would not consent to the withdrawl.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ah..... so, is this the proverbial other side of the story?? >>
That's what he did to the seller of the 1914 C note.
My experience with him was a little different, but just as frustrating. He bought a cheap Washington quarter in the legal defense auctions, then left an ill advised feedback comment. Later he demanded that I mutually withdraw the feedback. I couldn't get it across to him that eBay no longer will remove the comments, only the points. He then declared that I was responsible for anything that happened to him because of what he wrote. I refused to be bullied, and would not consent to the withdrawl. >>
He's is a jerk.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>Ah..... so, is this the proverbial other side of the story?? >>
That's what he did to the seller of the 1914 C note.
My experience with him was a little different, but just as frustrating. He bought a cheap Washington quarter in the legal defense auctions, then left an ill advised feedback comment. Later he demanded that I mutually withdraw the feedback. I couldn't get it across to him that eBay no longer will remove the comments, only the points. He then declared that I was responsible for anything that happened to him because of what he wrote. I refused to be bullied, and would not consent to the withdrawl. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>This list isn't totally inclusive, there are about 25 on my list, and I can usually find what I need. >>
And the common denominator is...
...NONE of them sells coins "cheap." You're not going to "rip" any of them.
I've dealt with several of the dealers Eric lists above. And while they're not cheap, the quality is certainly there so the coins are still good *value*.
Anyone who buys raw coins on eBay looking for a "rip" may as well be plunking down a bunch of money on the roulette wheel in Vegas. Occasionally you'll hit it big, but more often than not, the "house" will win and in the long run, you'll go broke.
I aim this particularly at novice collectors -- no matter what the temptation, please, please, *please* do not rely on extremely limited knowledge and think you're going to rip a $2500 gem out of a seller for $100. The fact that it *very rarely* but occasionally happens doesn't justify the other 99.9% of the time you're going to get crap and it's a loser's game in the long run. Your first numismatic "investments" should be on education -- read books, go to shows, talk to knowledgeable people you trust (and buy a small thing or two you like -- a couple small coins or some books and supplies -- from them as their "reward" for being the "good guys"). Only with more experience, knowledge and education should you even begin to *consider* looking for good raw buys or items from unknown sellers without established reputations for fairness and quality. Until then, stick to the places where we can almost all agree, you'll get a fair -- but not cheap -- deal.
With very rare and unusual exceptions (such as rare die varieties that others missed -- which again, you can only find with experience and education), you are NOT going to buy desirable, quality items for a few dimes on the dollar, on eBay or pretty much *anywhere*. If you don't know the coins you're bidding on inside and out, just say NO to raw stuff (and stuff in crap slabs) from unknown sellers.
[edit to fix typos.]
<< <i>
My experience with him was a little different, but just as frustrating. He bought a cheap Washington quarter in the legal defense auctions, then left an ill advised feedback comment. Later he demanded that I mutually withdraw the feedback. I couldn't get it across to him that eBay no longer will remove the comments, only the points. He then declared that I was responsible for anything that happened to him because of what he wrote. I refused to be bullied, and would not consent to the withdrawl. >>
So he was going to hold YOU responsible for HIS making another stupid remark?? Boy, he is a real winner!!
<< <i>Boy, he is a real winner!! >>
Sorry, make that "loser!"
<< <i>So he was going to hold YOU responsible for HIS making another stupid remark?? Boy, he is a real winner!! >>
Yes. Here is an excerpt from one of the over 60 emails he sent me regarding this:
For the sake of good order, please note the attachment establishes that the feedback remains only because of your unwillingness to authorize removal Accordingly, you are responsible for it's continuation from this point forward.
Once again, it is requested that you consent to removal of the feedback (final request) unconditionally.
The Times of London reported in 1997 that when an employee of the James Beauchamp law firm in Edgbaston, England, recently killed himself, the firm billed his mother the equivalent of US$20,000 for the expense of finishing up his office work. Included in that amount was a bill for about US$2,300 to go to his home to find out why he didn't show up at work (thus finding his body), plus about US$250 to go to his mother's home, knock on her door, and tell her that her son was dead. (After unfavorable publicity, the firm withdrew the bill.) [The Times (London), 3-14-97]
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
he's major big time alright, but I won't finish the sentence
That brings to mind why sharks don't eat lawyers...... professional courtesy.
I'm failing to understand totally the concept of not getting what you pay for on eBay. Since it is an Auction site, one that is littered with unsavory characters, and you are well aware of that. You study an auction and it's seller carefully. Read his auction text thoroughly and bid accordingly. How can you get "less than you pay for" if you only bid on auctions that totally fit your criteria? If you bid on an Auction that you have reservations about, do you not still bid accordingly <lower>?
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>60 emails???
he's major big time alright, but I won't finish the sentence >>
PITA.
WH