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Why the Barbers are so tough to find nice
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
There have been about 5 large collections including Barber halves sold in the last 8 years, but the longterm buyers were there, putting the coins away.
1. Pryor, 1996
2. Eliasberg, April 1997
3. Price, 1998
4. Queller, Oct. 2002
5. Geosits. Nov. 2003
The population for many of the dates is less than 5 in 65, and for dates like the 04-S, PCGS has graded a total in all grades less than 40 coins.
There can be assembled only 4 gem sets in PCGS holders. And only 15 sets in 63 or better. So the reason for seeing only 1 or 2 nice Barber halves at a major show, on the floor, is readily clear. The coins are tied up in collections( 4 major collectors and about 6 complete or almost complete sets).Though I have been collecting for 12 years, I did not buy more than 5 on the floor. Many more at Auctions at the major events.
The barber quarters are almost as tough. Again, only 5 or less sets can be put together in MS 65 or better. The 2 large sales-Church and Krueger, were several years ago and have long been dispersed. The Eliasberg sale was 7 years ago. No complete collection has hit the Market in 4 years, but there are about 40 nice barber quarters coming up in August at the Heritage ANA sale.
While the dimes are more plentiful, 3 collections dominate the field and there are few gems these 3 gentlemen do not own.( Law, Blay and Duckor ). But there are about twice as many gems(MS 65 or better) in the dimes, than in the quarters or halves. So an almost complete gem set is possible.
It will probably take the sale of 2 of the longtime collections to get the present collectors a substantial number of coins for their Barber half sets; I personally do not know where the Barber quarters are hiding. I do know that several avid collectors have given up on completing the series.
So if you see a real nice original Barber in 64 or better, and it is a rare date, I would suggest you not wait for the 65 or better. It may be a long time.
1. Pryor, 1996
2. Eliasberg, April 1997
3. Price, 1998
4. Queller, Oct. 2002
5. Geosits. Nov. 2003
The population for many of the dates is less than 5 in 65, and for dates like the 04-S, PCGS has graded a total in all grades less than 40 coins.
There can be assembled only 4 gem sets in PCGS holders. And only 15 sets in 63 or better. So the reason for seeing only 1 or 2 nice Barber halves at a major show, on the floor, is readily clear. The coins are tied up in collections( 4 major collectors and about 6 complete or almost complete sets).Though I have been collecting for 12 years, I did not buy more than 5 on the floor. Many more at Auctions at the major events.
The barber quarters are almost as tough. Again, only 5 or less sets can be put together in MS 65 or better. The 2 large sales-Church and Krueger, were several years ago and have long been dispersed. The Eliasberg sale was 7 years ago. No complete collection has hit the Market in 4 years, but there are about 40 nice barber quarters coming up in August at the Heritage ANA sale.
While the dimes are more plentiful, 3 collections dominate the field and there are few gems these 3 gentlemen do not own.( Law, Blay and Duckor ). But there are about twice as many gems(MS 65 or better) in the dimes, than in the quarters or halves. So an almost complete gem set is possible.
It will probably take the sale of 2 of the longtime collections to get the present collectors a substantial number of coins for their Barber half sets; I personally do not know where the Barber quarters are hiding. I do know that several avid collectors have given up on completing the series.
So if you see a real nice original Barber in 64 or better, and it is a rare date, I would suggest you not wait for the 65 or better. It may be a long time.
TahoeDale
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I see you have quite a bit of Barber knowledge - I was wondering if you would give your opinion of my new Barber 10c? PCGS Pr63CAM (I know your post is about Mint State coins, but I figured you would have an opnion). I wanted an uncleaned and attractively toned example with a reasonably clean cheek - and not terribly hairlined - and within my budget! My reasoning when I found it was "buy it before you can't" - most of what I had been seeing in my range was very low in eye appeal. Date was not a major consideration as this was for a type set. Thanks!
Best,
Billy
Do you need a quarter to go along with your dime (very nice dime by the way
TahoeDale
I've known that finding really nice Barber halfs is difficult but thanks for filliing in some of the details on why.
thanks for the offer, and the great scan, but I am not in "buy" mode right now. When I am I will probably be looking for an XF/AU Capped 10c.
Thanks for the kind words re my 10c!
Best to you,
Billy
Proof coinage may vary between several grades without much difference, unless the grader has the experience to know what to look for, and I do not. My eyes are in need of magnification that a 20 year old gets for free.
A mistake was made on a previous post re the population of MS barber dimes as compared to quarters and halves. The dimes in 65 or better are as rare as the quarters, and almost as scarce as the halves.
Why step over the dollar to get to the cent? Because it's a 55DDO.
I appreciate the opinion, and the excellent article. I felt it was PQ - hairlines are very minor and the coin has an attractive "even" look about it. I thank you!
Best,
Billy
Now if you look further book to seated material, you have a whole
different level of rarity. There aren't 5 people building gem sets of quarters as far I know. And 5 sets is impossible....even one set is probably impossible. Even a 63 or 64 set may be impossible. At least 6 date/mints currently aren't generally known to exist in those grades. Barbers have the advantage of being completeable in gem, it just takes a strong bankroll to lure coins out from hiding. I love Barbers and wouldn't mind owning a gem set if I had the $$ to afford them. But once a coin gets to be pop 3 or 4 in gem, it doesn't interest me as much. I like coins that are pop 1 or 2 in gem
and have a good chance of staying that way. I still feel there are many Barber gems still out there waiting to show up.
roadrunner
You are absolutely correct re the rarity of the lib seated series. I have dabbled there, and have even considered trying to put a half series together. I attended the Queller sale, and saw the cc's go to the moon.
While I own several of each demonination, my interests are in MS coins will probably prevent me from doing a date set of the halves. I am stuck on original toned coins, like my friend Gregg Bingham, and the barbers, and capped bust halves fill that need. My searches for seated material in MS(not proof-they are exquisite) has left me seeing too many grey/non-lusterous coins that I have passed on.
So, I will stay with what pleases me. As should all collectors. But when I see an original toned one(1858-S half in 66, Norweb), I will continue to bite.
We all look forward to seeing more details about your half dollar collection. It's staggering to me to imagine the money AND TIME it must have taken to locate the material. I'm also interested in any insight you can provide, i.e. which dates are overrated, underrated, etc, based on your long personal journey. I don't collect Gem Barber material myself, but others on this board do, and we would all love any tidbits you could provide.
I myself have always wondered about the lack of Gem material when it comes to Barbers. With some mintages relatively high, you would expect more material to be available. And of course, given that key dates are submitted several times for grading, even the population reports themselves WAY OVER ESTIMATE the availability of such material.
Thanks again,
Dave
Nice early dated halves are like hen's teeth to find. Most are dipped or dullish & mottled. I was fortunate to pick up a gem pair of James Pryor/James Stack halves 2 years back (1855 and 1874-s). The Pryor sale was the best half dollar sale of our generation and prices were at the very bottom of the market cycle in 1996. It was a great opportunity to load up. Unfortunately I had no extra cash at that time.
roadrunner
I didn't attend the Pryor sale, but my dealer did, and I was able to buy 3 barber halves. I wasn't collecting bust halves at the time, and missed out on a great bunch of coins. In fact, all the series were to die for, at the prices in 1996. I looked up the 2 seated halves you purchased, and they are superb.
These coins were all very pq. 2 of the 3 barbers I got have upgraded 1 point. The 3rd was already tied for top pop. I just wish I had been there.
The entire series is listed on the PCGS registry-Barber halves MS.
The toughest coins to find in 65 or better were
1893-S
1894-S
1896-O
1898-O
1899
1900
1900-O
1901
1901-O
1902-O
1904
1904-S
1910
1915
I did most of my buying in the mid to late 90's, and was able to purchase about 25 coins from 1 collection in 1997. A collector in Humble Texas was selling, in order to build a new house, and I got lucky. I wish I had bought the entire collection, but had limited funds. Who has unlimited?
I have coins from the following collections besides the one above:
Eliasberg, Pryor, Price, Queller, Duckor.
The Registry was not in vogue at the time I made most of my buys. That helped, as there was no rush to get to the top. I traded with other collectors who had duplicates, meeting them through common dealers. And my main man, Kenny Duncan at US Coins, found many for me. We also bought the proofs when they came available.
The best story of all the coins I own is the 1892-0 micro-o. I was at the Eliasberg sale, and when this coin hammered for $54,000, Kenny Duncan said it was going to be the best buy of the Barber halves. I didn't buy it til 2003, when I paid several times over the hammer price. I could have owned it in 1997, but couldn't step out in that price range. I ended up with the 1892 Proof half, that graded 66.
Thanks for getting me to remember all this trivia. It's fun.
Nope. Of course, those were the exact signs of a market bottom which I failed to recognize. I also sold my 1970 440-6 pack, red, Challenger RT that summer too (it has nearly tripled in price since then too!). That was the bottom for many different markets.
Funny that I missed Pryor but ended up flying out to California in 2002 to buy those halves out of auction. Like your Barbers, they were conservatively graded in the earlier days of PCGS. Both of mine also upgraded on resubmittal. That was no real surprise though as I paid high-end money to buy them in the first place. And even in the higher holders they look better than 90% of the swill I see for sale in the same grades today.
roadrunner
Mike
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
But, at the risk of my being flamed by certain forum members
That's why building a great set isn't just about money. It requires opportunity as well....
Personally I have always liked Barbers, as well as all seated coins. Especially the larger ones.
Seated coin collectors are a funny breed. I think most want to be buried with their collections.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Nearly all gem Barber dimes are available (the last PCGS 65 1895-O I saw was listed at $20,000
with CDN at $11,500/13,250 and it was gone immediately). Price and positive eye appeal are the problem.
You have to talk to a lot of people and let them know what you want. David Lawrence Co. and Jack Beymer
are 2 of the most knowledgable. If you really feel comfortable grading raw gem Barbers Stack's is excellent.
If you locate a nice 64 rarer issue for close to CDN snap it up. I passed on a 1900-O PCGS 64 dime a while
ago without realizing what great trading material that coin was. My loss.
Start with the keys. They appreciate faster. I know it is hard to resist buying 6 or 8 common Phillies for the
same investment as a mint-marked coin from the 1800's. But you will be glad you did.
Look at a ton of coins. There are Barbers with upgrade potential out there. My favorite is richly toned dimes.
I believe there is more undergraded coins in this series due to toning than any other factor.
I just sold a 1899 ProofCam 63 Barber dime that looked just like yours. Took me 18 months to find it. Good
buy!
Steve
98-0, 99-0, 00-0, 01-0, 02-0, 03-0, 04-0. The first 4 of these especially. Always felt that the pre-1898 "O"s tend to be a bit overhyped because of lower mintages or popularity. Yum.
roadrunner
Don't take this wrong, but a lot of collectors from the generation before me (baby boomer), who grew up during the Great Depression, did not have a great respect for the Barber coinage. They viewed the series as dull and the designs as boring. The older collectors I knew were much more interested in the 18th and 19th century coinage. With opinions like that it's not surprising that smaller numbers of Barber coins survived.