Painted Die Varieties (Colonial)

Oldnewbie

Can any of the Colonial folks explain why it's hard to find PDVs in Colonials other than Connecticuts? I picked up a New Jersey with "ink" and it's the first I've seen for sale so far.

Eric Pederson

Conder101

You probably see more Connecticuts because there are so many more varieties of CT's than the rest of the colonial series put together. Have a few advanced colonal collectors inking their coins and you quickly have say a couple dozen Vermont's and several hundred Connecticut's. Dispurse the collections and which ones do you see turning up more often.

Baley

some of these coins may have been previously "inked" and then the ink subsequently removed?

Conder101

If the ink wasn't removed son after it was applied you can still "see" it because the area where the ink was protected the metal from toning, so when the ink is removed the letters are still there formed by the difference in color.

Oldnewbie

<< <i>If the ink wasn't removed son after it was applied you can still "see" it because the area where the ink was protected the metal from toning, so when the ink is removed the letters are still there formed by the difference in color. >>



I hadn't thought of that. Have you seen many like that? I would think that collectors would see what was happening and not remove the ink on other coins.

Eric

billboat

For the uninitiated--what are you guys talking about? I understand the colonial copper part--but inking? Thanks Bill

Oldnewbie

Bill, I've lifted this reply by Dennis of Jade Rare Coin from a prior thread. I hope it helps.


JadeRareCoin
Veteran

Posts: 985
Joined: Mar 2004
Friday July 02, 2004 10:07 AM




Hi Eric,

As you already know, I am enamored with attribution ink on colonial coppers. There's not much documentation on the background of attribution ink, but some of the C4 (colonial coin club) members have information that they have shared with me. First of all, to answer your question, there was at least one person who was forging attribution ink on Connecticut coppers, Fugios and other colonials few years ago (what a jerk, huh?). Identifying the modern inked coins is not easy, but can be done. The primary difference is that the ink is too white. If you examine the attribution ink on your inked CT, you will see that the ink actually has a patina and is discolored. Look with even higher magnification, and you can see fine crackling sometimes on the ink.

In my own experience, I have positively identified at least 3 different styles of attribution ink on colonials. The one I sold you (your icon coin), is by far the best done. Whoever that collector was, he was very particular about the placement and quality of his inked attributions. The worst one was done with a much broader brush and sometimes it's even difficult to read the attributions. I was told by one colonial expert that there's information on the collectors who actually did the inking, probably obtained via researching of old auction catalogs.

In case you're wondering why someone would "paint" the attribution on a colonial copper, here's my understanding and opinion: Publications of works that identified different varieties of colonial coins were available to collectors in the late 1800's. For example, Maris released his work on NJ coppers in 1880. At that time, and even well into the 1960's, collecting colonial coins was comparable to collecting sea shells today. Colonial coins were readily available (remember that millions of these coppers were struck) and there was not a big demand by collectors. The supply/demand ratio was such that these "old coppers" were literally selling for $0.01 or $0.02 each. The really nice ones could be had for $1 or so. Now that collectors had variety references (i.e. Maris for NJ, Miller for Conn., Ryder for Vermont, etc.), they could affordably collect a particular series by obtaining the different varieties. This was coin collecting in its purest form. In the 1890's and early 1900's, coin holders were not ubiquitous. Even if one did have an envelope, it may not be worth wasting it on a cheap-o colonial coin. So, how else would one keep track of his different varieties? How about if you write the variety right on the coin! After all, these are not expensive coins......they are like sea shells.

I see more attribution ink on Connecticut coppers than any other issue. Probably for a few reasons. My theory is that CTs offer more varieties than any other colonial (nearly 400 different). Amazing, isn't it? Also, Miller's work on CTs was released in 1920. With The Great Depression some to come, collectors were probably looking for the most affordable way to enjoy their hobby, even through the hard times.

How rare or scarce are inked colonials? Well, I have sold less than 20 in my career. I have seen others, but they represent a small percentage of the coins on the market. Probably because some people collect inked coins and they have mostly been removed from the market. Also, we must assume that many of the coins have been "curated" to remove the ink. Does original attribution ink add value to the coin? As confirmed by CCU, only if you are interested in that sort of thing. To some, it's just damage. To others it's a link to the early days of The King of Hobbies; American coin collecting. I am in the second group.

I should make note that I am not the authority on attribution inked colonials. Most of the thoughts I expressed above are my thoughts and opinions, or is simply information that I am relaying from others. I am sure that there are others on this forum who know much more about inked coins (i.e. the names of the collectors, how many collectors, etc.). I know that some colonial experts lurk here, but do not post. Maybe now is your chance to make that first post (hi Ed).

I would think Pistareen (John K. from ANR) would have plenty of information for us on this subject. John, ya out there today? I am also sure that Mr. Bowers can enlighten us on the subject.

Dennis

PS - I absolutely love colonial coins (with or without ink )

Conder101

I've seen a few, I'm not sure I may have a Conder token in my collection that has had an inked attribution removed that is still visible.

Oldnewbie

After I re-read the post from Dennis, I see he had already addressed my question. Duh. Oh well, ya' just can't have too many Colonial threads.

Eric

billboat

Eric--Thanks for the very informative reply. Replies like yours are why I enjoy this Board so much--there's always a lot to be learned!--Bill

Oldnewbie

<< <i>Eric--Thanks for the very informative reply. Replies like yours are why I enjoy this Board so much--there's always a lot to be learned!--Bill >>



Thanks, but all I did was cut and paste. Dennis Tarrant of Jade Rare Coin was the author. I only wish I could whip something like that out of MY brain. Maybe some day.

Eric

JadeRareCoin

Hi Eric,

I am sorry that I have not yet sent you images of the new inked colonials that I have. I will explain later. I will post some information to this thread later today. I have been asking some of the experts for more information regarding inked colonials. There's not a lot of info out there. Gotta run....... Dennis

Oldnewbie

Hi Dennis,

No worries. I'll check in throughout the day.

Eric

lordmarcovan

<< <i>For the uninitiated--what are you guys talking about? I understand the colonial copper part--but inking? Thanks Bill >>



Thanks, Bill, for askin' that, 'cause I would certainly be among the uninitiated here.

And thanks for the posted reply. I often wondered what was goin' on with Oldnewbie's icon CT copper, and I asked somebody else who was wearing the same icon if it was a museum mark or somethin'. That person replied that he didn't know- he'd just chosen the icon off the list.

billboat

LordM--glad to help all of us uninitiated folks out--think I'll get my Sharpie out and start inking my Bust Halves with their Overton die marriage numbers--maybe I can create a new trend and corner the market. Seriously, everytime I think I know a lot about coins a thread like this comes along and I get way humble all over again.

Oldnewbie

<< <i>

<< <i> I often wondered what was goin' on with Oldnewbie's icon CT copper, and I asked somebody else who was wearing the same icon if it was a museum mark or somethin'. That person replied that he didn't know- he'd just chosen the icon off the list. >>



Wow, out of all those cool coins, somebody picked one I own. I figured that old Connecticut would be the last coin someone would pick.

Eric

JadeRareCoin

Okay, I am finally "back in action". We just upgraded our computer systems, transferred our web site to a new server, etc, etc. Sorry for the delay in posting.

I managed to locate 3 more inked Connecticut coppers in the past couple of months. I did find an inked NJ at the Baltimore show, but the price was too steep for the variety/condition. I also asked a few more colonial experts for any information regarding PDVs on Colonial coins. I was surprised at the lack of information. I was reminded by a few guys that there is some information out there, but nobody could specifically direct me to the information. It was stated to me that both collectors AND museums used ink on coins to record the attributions. To me, Colonial coins with attribution ink are fascinating. I try to purchase all that I can, even though I usually end up selling them, since this is my job. I just like to image them and store the information for future research/reference.

Here are my 3 new purchases of PDV Connecticut coppers:





I am still trying to find more information on the PDV phenomenon and will post data as it comes to me.

Thanks, Dennis

dorkkarl

i don't see no digi-pics, but would like to. inked coppers are COOL.

K S

dorkkarl

oops, all of a sudden, the digi-pics popped up. very nice! no more truer collectors than those who inked those coins!!!

K S

Oldnewbie

Three very nice coins. I love that 33.34-W.2. The nice penmanship gives it added attraction. I never thought I'd say THAT about a coin.

BNE

I had never heard of this practice before. Very interesting, and very COOL!

JadeRareCoin

I had never heard of this practice before. Very interesting, and very COOL!

BNE, don't feel bad, as inked coins (the original ones) are not very common and are getting more difficult to locate. PDV's are a part of our Americal coin collecting heritage......."Americana", if you will