1921 matte proof Peace Dollars do not exist?

Russ

This is one of the more interesting questions to appear in the Q&A forum.

Russ, NCNE

MrEureka

Anyone that doubts that Satin 21's exist should visit the NY Fed and look at the ANS specimen.



As for the Matte 21's, I more or less agree with HRH. I've never seen one that 100% convinced me.

Coinosaurus

IIRC, there was a 1921 proof in an ANACS holder that recently sold for 6K or so. Clearly, the market wasn't convinced either

Hoot

Very curious... is that Breen I hear rolling over in his grave?

QDB states that matte proofs were struck in both 1921 and 22, but then hedges by saying that a number of fakes were made by machining the rims flat, coating the reeding, then pickling the devices of a well-struck coin! He later (in the text) says that about 10 1921 matte proofs were made and 2 sandblast proofs were made of the 1922 dollar, as well as 8 sandblast proofs (approx.) and perhaps 3 satin proofs (per Breen).

Hoot

islemangu

coinguy1

Islemangu, the image you posted looks to be of a Satin, not a Matte Proof Peace Dollar. There is apparently not as much debate about whether they actually exist, though I have seen a number of alleged Proofs of that type which were not at all convincing.

sadysta1

I think I have seen one 1921 matte proof in Baltimore a couple of shows ago in anacs slab; it looked like one of the sandblasted proofs.

DHeath

This is the 21 matte proof (NGC PR-65) sold in the Goldberg auction as part of the complete proof set (Benson Feb 16th, 01 lot 2245). I have no idea whether matte proof 21's exist as a mint product, but it sure is an attractive coin.

MrEureka

There is apparently not as much debate about whether they actually exist, though I have seen a number of alleged Proofs of that type which were not at all convincing.

The problem with the satin 21's is that the proof dies continued to be used after the intended proofs were struck. As a result, there are many "near proofs" exhibiting (from the first struck to the last) progressively diminished proof characteristics. I'm not convinced that there is any way to look at the coins and know which is the last proof struck and the first "near proof".

Frankly, I would not advise paying a lot of money for a purported proof 21 unless you really know what you're doing. I definitely would not rely on a TPG to make the decision for me.

Julian

I agree, mostly, with what Andy had to say. I have had examples of both Matte and Satin finish 1921 Peace Dollars, that I believed to be proof strikings. I have also had examples of the Matte, 1922, T21 Peace Dollar.

As Andy said, do not depend on any one else's opinion. You must be convinced. It is your money and you have to be the satisfied owner.

FrattLaw

Aren't there strike characteristics as well as die polish lines that help identify the satin proof dies from the non-proof dies?

I submitted a coin to ANACS a couple of Long Beaches ago that was walked around the floor and show to the dollar experts to determine whether or not it was a Satin proof.

It has die polish lines in the obverse left field as well as die polish lines on the reverse with extremely strong strike. After studying it for the better part of 2 days it came back as a non-proof, but a very early business strike from the proof dies - or as Andy calls it "near proof."

The main characteristic it was missing was a slightly doubled reverse eagle. I was told that the proofs were actually struck twice to really bring up the relief and there is usually a slight doubling effect to the eagle's wing tip that confirms it as a proof.

Well, it was an interesting experience and I still look for these "near proof" 21s. Mine now resides nicely in my Waye Raymond Peace $ set and has started to tone up as well.

Michael

Ed62

Here are the images of two 1921 Peace Dollars from recent Heritage sales. One is a ANACS Satin Pf-62 and the other is a PCGS MS-67. One sold for $10,350, the other for $24,150.

Which one would you rather have??

coinguy1

<< <i>The problem with the satin 21's is that the proof dies continued to be used after the intended proofs were struck. As a result, there are many "near proofs" exhibiting (from the first struck to the last) progressively diminished proof characteristics. I'm not convinced that there is any way to look at the coins and know which is the last proof struck and the first "near proof". >>

Andy, doesn't that apply to the Proof (1907 $20) High Relief's, as well? If I understood him correctly, a PCGS owner/grader used that logic/argument to explain why PCGS wont recognize Proof High Relief's.

MrEureka

Andy, doesn't that apply to the Proof High Relief's, as well?

Yes, although I'm not 100% convinced that the Mint ever intended to strike proof HR Saints.