How important is the holder? It depends...
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
I have been following this question on the boards for 3 years, and have come to some conclusions. I'd like to hear from others if I am out to lunch, or if others agree.
1. Dealers selling coins will note that the coin is a PCGS coin(if it is)
2. Dealers buying coins from you will negotiate a lower sales or consignment price if not PCGS
3. Certain series have large differences in pricing, depending on the holder:
Standing Liberty Quarters
Lib Nickels
Early dollars
All the other series, except perhaps proof gold if UC
4. Some collectors pay way too much money for pop 1 PCGS coins that have a registry following
5. All grading services make mistakes. PCGS makes fewer.
6. The more expensive the coin, the more important the holder?
For the record, I have complete sets of both PCGS graded coins and NGC graded coins. And when a sale is about to occur, I do not price the coin based on the holder, but on the asthetics of the coin. However, most of the time the PCGS coin will obtain a higher price on the market than than the NGC coin. The collecting community has decided that the PCGS holder(not the coin) is worth extra, over the condition of the coin.
7. The longer I see coins, and improve my grading skills, the more disappointed I become when I see a bust half that is AU 55 (IMO) in a PCGS 62 holder, and a lib nickel that is MS 67 in an NGC 66 holder. This last example is rare,but does occur.
How do you learn that a coin is PQ for grade, in whatever holder it is presently in? Look at thousands of coins in that series, then ask Mark Feld.
TahoeDale
1. Dealers selling coins will note that the coin is a PCGS coin(if it is)
2. Dealers buying coins from you will negotiate a lower sales or consignment price if not PCGS
3. Certain series have large differences in pricing, depending on the holder:
Standing Liberty Quarters
Lib Nickels
Early dollars
All the other series, except perhaps proof gold if UC
4. Some collectors pay way too much money for pop 1 PCGS coins that have a registry following
5. All grading services make mistakes. PCGS makes fewer.
6. The more expensive the coin, the more important the holder?
For the record, I have complete sets of both PCGS graded coins and NGC graded coins. And when a sale is about to occur, I do not price the coin based on the holder, but on the asthetics of the coin. However, most of the time the PCGS coin will obtain a higher price on the market than than the NGC coin. The collecting community has decided that the PCGS holder(not the coin) is worth extra, over the condition of the coin.
7. The longer I see coins, and improve my grading skills, the more disappointed I become when I see a bust half that is AU 55 (IMO) in a PCGS 62 holder, and a lib nickel that is MS 67 in an NGC 66 holder. This last example is rare,but does occur.
How do you learn that a coin is PQ for grade, in whatever holder it is presently in? Look at thousands of coins in that series, then ask Mark Feld.
TahoeDale
TahoeDale
0
Comments
I generally agree with what you have written. I am least sure of: 5. All grading services make mistakes. PCGS makes fewer. I would have left the statement at: "5. All grading services make mistakes."
I look forward to your continued presence and involvement here.
Robert
<< <i>6. The more expensive the coin, the more important the holder? >>
With the exception of moderns, I think the opposite is true. In classics and rarities, the holder becomes ever less important as the value rises.
Russ, NCNE
I agree with your exception for classic rarities. These high end coins can be anywhere, and the demand remains great.
TahoeDale
7. The longer I see coins, and improve my grading skills, the more disappointed I become when I see a bust half that is AU 55 (IMO) in a PCGS 62 holder, and a lib nickel that is MS 67 in an NGC 66 holder. This last example is rare,but does occur.
Wouldn't this make you appreciate the fact that you have top-notch grading skills and can avoid getting burned or find a nice bargain???
I agree re the list being incomplete. I meant to include all series as indicated in the 4th item, with the only exception being proof gold in ultra cameo.
I too have seen several fold increases(PCGS over NGC pricing) for MS 66 and above. As an example, the Heritage ANA sale has 2 1892 lib nickels in MS 66. The PCGS coin is now bid $7250, and the NGC coin has 1 bid-$1. Let's review the final prices and get back together on additional series where this occurs.
<< <i> As an example, the Heritage ANA sale has 2 1892 lib nickels in MS 66. The PCGS coin is now bid $7250, and the NGC coin has 1 bid-$1. Let's review the final prices and get back together on additional series where this occurs. >>
I'd be willing to pay twice that bid for the NGC coin.
<< <i>I would have left the statement at: "5. All grading services make mistakes." >>
Agreed
1. When I sell coins, I don’t care if it’s PCGS or NGC, it’s the coin that counts. I’ve gotten PQ prices for coins in both brands of holders. I’ve also sold ANACS coins for good prices although not as strong as PCGS and NGC.
2. I’ll pay the same prices for PCGS and NGC coins, if the coins are of equal quality for the grade. I’ve paid more NGC coins in the same grade as a PCGS coin is not as nice.
3. I’ve not see this in the areas of the market of the market that you mention. The reason is that I am a 100% sight seen buyer. If I don’t like the coin, I don’t buy it unless the price is low for the grade.
4. I agree totally that some collectors pay too much, sometimes WAY took much for POP-1 coins. The Registry plays a big factor in this.
5. It depends upon what you want to call fewer mistakes. If you are talking about grading ON AVERAGE PCGS is more conservative. BUT note I wrote “AVERAGE.” What that means is that you have to consider the coins on a case by case basis and NOT depend upon the brand name for grading. As for variety attributions, NGC is FAR better than PCGS in that regard. I’ve seen far more series attribution errors on PCGS coins than I have on NGC or ANACS coins.
6. I’ll buy expensive coins in either PCGS or NGC holders. I’ve bought an sold pieces with 5-figure prices (that’s expensive to me) in both brands.
7. I strongly agree. Many MS-61 and 62 coins are sliders.
Bottom line – Astute buyers know that it’s the COIN not the holder. PCGS gets too much credit for being the primer service among some collectors.
<< <i>Bottom line – Astute buyers know that it’s the COIN not the holder. PCGS gets too much credit for being the primer service among some collectors. >>
If anyone missed this line from Bill's response -- reread it, memorize it, let it be your mantra.
Now go put the KoolAid down!
Michael
Welcome to the Forum.
I wish that all dealers were as straight-forward as you, but many of the high end(and good reputation) dealers I have known for over 13 years believe the market for PCGS coins in many series will command multiples over NGC coins. The Registry has created some of this discrepancy, but not all.
Examples: MS 66 and 67 lib nickels; MS 66 and 67 Barber halves and quarters; MS 65 and 66 capped bust halves;and others in certain grade ranges.
Typical MS 67 lib nickel (1900 to 1905) will bring around $4000 in an NGC holder and @ 7500 to 9,000 if PCGS. Bust halves after 1823 in 65-- 5000 if NGC, 6500 to 7000 if PCGS. Now, if the NGC coin is truly lesser struck and or washed out, there's a reason for the lower price.
Are all 66's equal? Of course not, but these coins will bring more in a PCGS holder. And the true grade difference is usually only slight, if at all.
However, there is a close price difference for MS 63 and below coins in the same series. And AU bust halves in XF thru AU 55 are priced very similarly. Why the big discrepancy for the higher end coin? With little difference in the true grade, collectors have been led to believe that before any big money is spent(like over 10,000), the coin had better be able to be re-sold in a market that prefers PCGS.
I have been speaking about certain coins, dates and grades. Proof type seems to run a little better in favor of the coin, rather than the holder. I have paid more for proof 68 halves in NGC holders than some of my PCGS 68's. They are nicer, with deeper mirrors. It is the coin, not the holder. I wish it was true for all series.
Right now I have some NGC 1954-P, 1953-P, and 1952-P's that I'm looking at cracking and submitting to PCGS. Most of the ones I have will be re-sold on ebay - a few (3, 4?) may get cracked. That's about the ratio I've been seeing, about one in three, one in four, or so. Not that the NGC's are bad, just not quite "there" IMHO.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
"5. All grading services make mistakes. PCGS makes fewer."
To: 5. PCGS grades more conservatively than other grading services
IMO they make just as many mistakes.
Dealers believe it because collectors make it so. Demand is relatively high and supply is relatively low == prices go up.
For most collectors the holder has become paramount BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GRADE AND ARE TOO LAZY TO LEARN HOW!!!
<< <i>For most collectors the holder has become paramount BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GRADE AND ARE TOO LAZY TO LEARN HOW!!! >>
I agree BUT, in my case, I buy many NGC and PCGS off of ebay based on a scan/pic and generally a poor description. It is only when I get the coin in hand that I can grade it. If it's strong for the grade I keep it, if not, I return it or re-sell on ebay. I have found that coins in ANACS slabs, and other TPG slabs, are usually weak for the grade or overgraded. It's too much hassle for me to be returning most of the coins I buy.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>
<< <i>For most collectors the holder has become paramount BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GRADE AND ARE TOO LAZY TO LEARN HOW!!! >>
I agree BUT, in my case, I buy many NGC and PCGS off of ebay based on a scan/pic and generally a poor description. It is only when I get the coin in hand that I can grade it. If it's strong for the grade I keep it, if not, I return it or re-sell on ebay. I have found that coins in ANACS slabs, and other TPG slabs, are usually weak for the grade or overgraded. It's too much hassle for me to be returning most of the coins I buy.
Mike >>
In the end, you have to buy the coin. It's what the savvy dealers do. If you have a low-end "65" in any holder you will not get "65" money. What you will get is either a polite refusal to buy or a "bad-mouthing" to get you to lower your asking price.
Tom