if that's the worst example of greed you've seen, you need to get out more. just from the link it should be clear that it's really only secondary profiteering and greed, the first being those that issue the items. to that end and since there's a market for the stuff, is it really greed or just a niche being filled, no matter how macabre we might think it is??
George Carlin once said that in America, you can get anything you want. while he made jest of that fact in his skit, i truly believe he admired and enjoyed it at the same time. his example was a Left nostril inhaler that glows in the dark---with your State Motto on the side!!!! if you look around long enough you're gonna find either the item or someone to make it.
Boom, There have been several threads about collecting these coins, and other items from this disaster. Many think of these two office buildings as a shrine, but in reality it is just one more place where lots of people got killed. This planet is a very dangerous place and tens of thousands die every day. We Americans are not use to living in the real “Dangerous” world, but if we are not to collect coins from disaster areas, or from periods where disasters were happening then we will all need to just stop. Some of the rarest coins we collect came out of blood battle scenes starting with the revolutionary war. Not to get to political here, but we as a people are just spending too much time and money on this 9-11 issue. Here are just a few examples,
30,000 people in Sudan died this past month murdered by there own government.
There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January..... In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.
FDR... led us into World War II. From1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
TRUMAN... finished that war and started one in Korea. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
JOHN F. KENNEDY... started the Vietnam Conflict in 1962. JOHNSON. Turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Most people that collect coins might be horrified to find the microscopic blood still on their coins from the ravages of the world.
JOHN F. KENNEDY... started the Vietnam Conflict in 1962. JOHNSON. Turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Ya and let's not forget the 1 million plus Vietnamese who were killed in that as well as the hundreds of thousands of innocents who are STILL being born with severe birth defects as a direct result of dropping chemicals into the water table. Gonna be interesting with all the fish and seafood being imported from Vnam for the last year or so........
Far was the WTC, while in Asia, particularly Thailand, one of the big selling T-shirts there had a picture of none other than OBL on it and it. Saw a lot of those in maylasia too.
<< <i>Goldsaint--great post!!! Some of my favorite coins in my meager type set are from the Civil War era--a horrendous event in terms of caualties. >>
Agreed and regarding the war of the 1860's an even greater loss was the beginning of the advance of giant centralized government to which lincoln thought "it was ok" to murder over 600,000 Americans in order to achieve that goal.
Ya and let's not forget the 1 million plus Vietnamese who were killed in that as well as the hundreds of thousands of innocents who are STILL being born with severe birth defects
OH....my question has evoked a response, both a defensive and offensive one. I suppose we now know the truth.
First and foremost, give me your name and phone number and I will respond to your question in person. I am not a coward and will post a response through Ebay as well so that the entire Ebay community will see your question and my response in my auction. I proudly served my country and gave it four years of my life doing things that should not be asked of any human being. Some people think they know what my MOS was while I was enlisted in the Corps but they don't. I can tell you this, I was the best at what I did for this country and will honorably do it again if I was called back into active duty. My family was the reason for me getting out of the Marine Corps and no other reason. Send me your phone number and I will call you. The greedy person you need to call is Leo Garcia, Ebay ID triplexotica. He is the one to answer your question. Only losers like him brag about the millions they've made from these WTC coins. Click on the link below and read for yourself;
Out of all these two years that I have been selling these coins on Ebay, I have never had anybody ask me the question you have. I find it strange that after triplexotica tried to rip me off calling himself my friend, that I get a question like this one. If he put you up to this or if this is you Leo, I will soon see you in court.
I wrote and proof read my question to make sure I gave you every opportunity to PLEASE prove me wrong about you. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt by asking you to do so. So... you take offense to an open, honest question! Like I said, I had hoped I was wrong about you.... but from your defensive response I can see that this "hope" was nothing more than wishful thinking and that you are in fact just someone seeking to line your pockets off the catastrophic misfortune of others. There IS no noble gesture, is there? By all means DO post this dialogue for all to see. This is a disgrace and as an ex-Marine, you should feel shame. I repeatedly asked you to prove me wrong....to show me that there was and is some noble gesture behind this. Your response - your atitude is answer enough. Just exactly what type of person capitalizes, still to this day(almost 3 years later) off the tremendous grief and misfortune of many of innocent people? The coin is bad enough but all this secondary market paraphanalia....what is that all about? Patriotism or Capitalism? For your information, I am not the only one that feels this way. At what point did you see this catastrophe as a money making opportunity? You need not drag anyone else into this as this is MY question aimed directly at you. WC Segura pittbreeder
What was your email to the seller? I am quite interested. I choose to hold my opinion regarding these coins. I don't think I ever mentioned how I felt about them on these boards. If I did, it was one time only.
Anyway, your email to him got him kind of upset, so that is why I asked to see what you said to him.
I used the "ask the seller a question" feature early this morning and I don't know if I clicked on send a copy to myself. I'll hunt around for it and let you know! It speaks for itself.....Be right back!
I wouldn't own a coin that is a result of one of the worst days in Modern America, and the price is outrageous. If he really wanted ewveryone to have the opportrunity to own one of these, then put a $15 BIN on them. as a former Marine, I'm shocked that he (also a former Marine). would embarass the Corps ripping off people.
PCGS sets under The Thomas Collections. Modern Commemoratives @ NGC under "One Coin at a Time". USMC Active 1966 thru 1970" The real War.
I cannot find the original email that went thru ebay but I can pretty well remember what I said that brought this on
" This can't be true...say it's not so or please convince me that you are doing this for a noble cause, to help fatherless and motherless children, orphaned at the hands of cowards- families forever shattered because of this modern day "Pearl Harbor". If this is for any other reason I would be totally disgusted! Tell me, were these your coins sitting in what used to be, the now forever gone, WTC or when they were unearthed did you run out and buy a bunch, seeing this as a Capitalistic Opportunity? If this is the case and you are still making your fortune, your claim to fame almost 3 years later, preying off peoples' emotions, to say that I would be very disappointed would be putting it mildly. Say it isn't so...make me understand what this is truly all about"
From memory- pretty much what I said and meant every word of it!
Boom: People that sell this kind of stuff are beyond being bothered by anything other than what is best for them. Think of all the other examples, the trading cards of serial killers for one. I doubt that they care what anyone thinks. Hopefully, one day they will get their just rewards. Fortunately, these people are outnumbered by the "good guys", soldiers, police, firemen and many, many more.
<< <i>...The greedy person you need to call is Leo Garcia, Ebay ID triplexotica. He is the one to answer your question. Only losers like him brag about the millions they've made from these WTC coins. Click on the link below and read for yourself;
...I find it strange that after triplexotica tried to rip me off calling himself my friend, that I get a question like this one. If he put you up to this or if this is you Leo, I will soon see you in court. >>
Very interesting response you got from this seller.
Well, he sold it , alright for somewhere around $180.00. I don't even care to go back and look because along with it he has a store full of all sorts of paraphenalia ALL revolving around this modern day "Pearl Harbor". What really gets me is it's obvious that HE is still capitalizing almost 3 years later off of an abomination and people are continuing to help him line his pockets.
I mean think of the reality of this. This guy is getting wealthy off the misfortune of broken families. The store has everything from Police department patches to the Fire department, Emergency Response teams, etc - bottom line the tremendous loss of life as a result of the luckiest sucker punch thus far of this century. I mean, what light bulb went off in his head, "Oh wow, what a way to make a lot of money!" How fricking twisted is that?
As I told him when I first saw this, I hoped that I was wrong about this and that all the proceeds were going towards the now fatherless and motherless children. Opportunistic Capitalism...his fortune made by the bloodshed of thousands of innocents. Man, that is lower than low! I don't know what else to say. This is disgusting. I'm done...I don't even want to think about it anymore!
We discuss it here a lot, but I am just happy that we on these forums, in conjunction with magnanimous help from pcgs, as one group, stood tall and proud, together, to make our donations in the aftermath of 9/11/01.
This guy has no other agenda but lining his pockets. 100% Trujillo. Believe me, we had quite a dialogue and if I'm not mistaken, a fellow ex-marine who's right up above and ttt'd this thread, had a nice dialogue with Mr. Trujillo as well. This really ticks me off....the thought that this person is making money hand over fist because he capitalized on others' misfortune. This is lower than low. I cannot speak for PCGS, but for them I would assume these were simply nothing more than business as usual.
What can one say about this? It is capitalism. Would you feel the same way towards the construction clean up crews who cleaned up ground zero? Didn't they get paid? What about the firm hired to design and build the WTC memorial buildings that will be going up at Ground Zero pretty soon? Are they also heartless, greedy capitalists lining their pockets with the opportunities made in the wake of national tradgety?
boom, I understand that people could get upset at this. I put it along the lines of someone selling artifacts from his room and the gun that one of my best friends used to kill himself. Now if the profits were used to help the grieving family, it might be different. It just makes it hard for the families to move on.
I am not sure if the profits from the initial sales of death slabs went to the families of 9/11. If so then they have served their purpose. Whatever happens to the coins after they were sold for charity is capitalism at work. If they couldn't be resold for profit, would they have sold as well as they initially did? If you bought a painting from a charity auction and resold it for 50,000.00 does that make you a crook?
Being a collector, I think they are important pieces of history. 100 years from now, my son will look at it and reflect on what happend that day. This, serving the same purpose as a memorial statue or commemorative coin. Would it make you feel better if they were given away for free?
I have no problem with the PCGS Ground Zero coins. They are an important part of history and I for one am glad they have been saved and slabbed instead of just wandering their way around the numismatic world as raw coins losing their historical value. The main reason I am a coin collector is the history behind the coins I have. Looking at them and wondering where they have been and what they have seen. The coins in questions were eye witnesses to one of the most terrible and infamous events in the history of the human race and are extremely valuable artifacts in my opinion. For those of you who find the sale of these coins disturbing do you also find the selling of coins from shipwrecks equally disturbing and for the same reasons? Likely not. These coins mark an important instant in both our history and the history of humankind and I am thankfull they have survived to tell their story for generations to come.
I see your point poorguy and appreciate both your perspective and your question. What troubles me is the sale of these coins strictly for personal gain at the expense of the lives of many innocent people. What a crappy way to make oneself wealthy. Had he done the same thing and at least split the profit with the bereaved families, THAT would have been...... "acceptable".
Boom: I guess my question to you is, what do you think should have happened to those coins/bullion in the vaults after being found at Ground Zero? Should they have gone back to the gov't for it to distribute? Others would still be selling them like this anyway. Should they have been melted? That is the only way to avoid a blatent display of greed such as this...
Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
<< <i>what do you think should have happened to those coins/bullion in the vaults after being found at Ground Zero? >>
Who did they originally belong to? Several questions/ answers, come to mind.
#1- I've been reading for years, forecasters predicting "when" the Govt. silver stockpile would be depleted. How many were in that vault and whose were they?
Why DIDN'T the Government seize them, at least temporarily? In essence this was a Crime scene. If they belonged to the Govt already then the answer would have been simple. They must have belonged to a private party/ entity then...I guess...I really don't know whose they were.
#2- I would answer your question by saying , give them to the families but I can see where that would have proven difficult if not impossible! Bottom line...I suppose you're right. Inevitably, unless the Govt seized them, melted them down and replenished their stockpile, they were going to end up in Capitalists' hands and what is happening was bound to happen.
Anything is "marketable". Are "WE", part of their market? Probably not in general, but (unfortunately) these are "coins" that to my simple understanding, will be sold and resold, and "we" who are "right", as hard as it is, need to deal with it.
...And more power to them, if they are happy. And if they DO resell them, (especially for a profit) hopefully, we WILL NOT hear from "them" any further, unless "we" bring it up.
<< <i>There sure are a lot of people willing to pay 10 times the normal price simply because they were under the WTC >>
There sure are a lot of people willing to pay incredible premiums for coins that were in boats on the bottom of the sea with dead sailors. There sure are a lot of people will to pay incredible premiums for coins that were owned by famous people. There sure are a lot of people that are willing to pay incredible premiums for coins that were hoarded by people that were murdered.
Bottom line is that in the coin businuess two things matter...condition and provenance. Coins without provenance rely on condition for premiums. Coins with increible provenance have an intrinsic value (for lack of a better term) to them that surpases condition....good condition adds to their premiums but bad condition does not neccessarily take away from them. Coin collecting is about history, provenance is about individual history of an item. The more provenance, the more history, the higher the price because more collectors are attracted.
My only point here is that these WTC coins are vitaly important in the history of our country and the world and it is a good thing they exist. They will be treasured far longer than any of us will walk this earth. As far as capitalists and profiteers, they are a part of our society that will not ever go away. They serve their purpose. I believe some of them could be more tactfull and considerate in their dealings but how an individual conducts his/her own business is not for me to dictate.
Edited to add: These coins will help to insure that what happened on that day will never be forgotten. I feel that the events of that day have already begun to fade from some poeples memories and their resolves have weakened. Those that forget what happened in the past are doomed to let it happen again.
..........and it will eventually continue . if there is a dollar to be made , someone will produce a medal series of white collar criminals . Mr. Winans, G Gordon Liddy , Martha Stewart , The CEO of Enron , Mrs Helmsley , etc ...........
What troubles me is the sale of these coins strictly for personal gain at the expense of the lives of many innocent people. What a crappy way to make oneself wealthy. Had he done the same thing and at least split the profit with the bereaved families, THAT would have been...... "acceptable".
While you are at it, blame every American company manufacturing everything from bombs to MRE's for the war on Terrorism. These companies are building their business and increasing profits by directing their output towards the military effort in Iraq. These compaines are hiring Middle Class working Americans who use those wages to put food on their families tables. Companies who use the profits from selling war materials to promote the American economy. You are probably using that wonderful American economy to help your financial future in some way or another. You are complaining about something that you take for granted every day. I am not a rich person. I can't buy anything I want. I can however see the big picture and how this type of business happens on the ultra-large scale and how it ultimately helps the economic stability of the United States of America. The strong American economy would be nil if this sort of thing didn't happen every day. You are borderlining hippocrate. What you are building your argument on is a dead-on attack on capitalism. Nothing was done wrong. These coins were preserved and made to represent what happened on 9/11. The more people that buy these coins, the more money gets moved around. It helps the economy. It preserves the memory of the souls that lost their lives on that day. This is how America works. No one was trying to exploit the deaths of 9/11. They are putting food on the table for their own families. The initial charity sales of these items went to help the families of 9/11. (supposing they did. I cannot understand why they wouldn't.) Should the families ride charities hat-in-hand for support for the rest of our generation? Should they recieve royalties for every item sold with a 9/11 theme? NO!!!! This issue has no basis and is frivilous in nature. Boom, you are a good person and I appreciate your posts and comments but I am sorry but this is America, let it go.
Boom: People that sell this kind of stuff are beyond being bothered by anything other than what is best for them. Think of all the other examples, the trading cards of serial killers for one. I doubt that they care what anyone thinks. Hopefully, one day they will get their just rewards. Fortunately, these people are outnumbered by the "good guys", soldiers, police, firemen and many, many more.
Fortunately there are many more "good guys" than resellers of trinkets commemorating tragedy. Yes, WTC recovered bullion coins, and Jessica Lynch slabs have a market, which will always invite sellers like this and companies wishing to commemorate the notoriety.
Someone else mentioned the ongoing atrocities in Sudan. However, I doubt we'll see coins encapsulated to celebrate the long Sudanese civil war since PCGS and others know there is only a tiny collector base for these.
U.S. Civil war memorabilia continues to be a respectable area for collectibles, 140 years after the fact, despite the gruesome details and ongoing controversy. Has the wealth of collectors of civil war memorabilia given Gettysburg and Antietam commemorative coins or Confederate currency and civil war tokens an aura of respectability so that we now consider these necessary to complete our sets?
I'd like to ask the seller in question if his father or grandfather or other relatives might have served in WWII or WWI, Had such an ancestor had the foresight to collect trinkets of disaster, he could have brought home a vial of mustard gas or Cyclon A. (If the reference to the latter eludes you, I will mention that the Nazis exterminated many Jews in the death chambers with Cyclon B. Presumably, its prototype Cyclon A was abandoned because it was not as efficient)
Are there enough sicko collectors out there to make a market for the rare Cyclon A? Is there an authentication company out there who might capitalize on the low surviving population of the "pattern" Cyclon A? There are certainly some collectors out there who would give this proptotype toxin a cherished place in their collection. But at what price?
Given the wealth of some Christian churches, I wonder what would happen if a respected authentication company slabbed the crown of thorns worn by Jesus at His crucifixion and slabbed individual thorns auctioned to the highest bidder. How would we think of a "charity" that wanted one of these for their museum or registry set of famous artifacts of misfortune?
The question of this thread is not whether it is wrong to capitalize off misfortune, but whether there might be a profitable market surrounding authenticated or celebrity-endorsed memorabilia of historically important suffering. If the public has money to spend on a collection that interests them, they will spend it, whether it is right or wrong to do so.
The lack of Sudanese civil war collectibles or obscure WWII chemicals as certified collectibles by a collector company due to lack of demand recalls George Bernard Shaw's famous quote "Virtue is insufficient temptation" or Mark Twain writing "Virtue has never been as respectable as money." Finally I recall actor Victor Buono (the captain of the toy sewer boat in the 1967 movie "Who's Minding the Mint?" and Batman villian) saying "My only aversion to vice is the price."
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
<< <i>...someone will produce a medal series of white collar criminals...Mrs Helmsley.... >>
That one would knock the Shriver right off the top of the ugly list.
Russ, NCNE >>
Hey, I'm proud of my Shriver/Special Olympics ugly dollar! It is to the 1990s what the P.T. Barnum commem was to the 1930s. Will it go down in value once there is a Leona Helmsley or Sherman Helmsley commemorative? (I predict that a George Jefferson commemorative will be a "sleeper").
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
Odd, yesterday at Mass, during the Homily, The Priest himself almost made confession before the entire congregation. He mentioned the adage, "Money is the root of all evil" then went on to say, "No, money isn't...GREED is the root of all evil".
I admire a stand up kind of person and he immediately pointed the finger at himself. He spoke of how he loved to play Golf and has more shirts and sets of Golf shoes...regular shirts and shoes too, more than he could ever possibly need OR use. He asked, "Now, do you really think I need all that?" "Of course not", he answered his own question. I just like shoes and shirts and accumalate them and won't let go because they are like brand new." He asked, "Does this make me greedy?"
He answered, "Yes...with the passage of time I realized that everytime I saw something I liked, I just had to have it...some are 9 years old and don't even fit anymore...NEVER BEEN USED, but, do you know that if I'm out and see a pair of shoes and a shirt today or tomorrow, I'm still going to buy them!" and asked "Can you imagine? Where is the sense in this?" "I could give them away or have given the money I blew needlessly on my self, because I JUST HAD TO HAVE THEM, to some poor person that really lacks the basics of human dignity-the everyday staples of life!"
I guess it's that way for all of us. If you live long enough, you accumalate "Stuff"...all sorts of "STUFF"... stuff that someone could take and we'd never miss but boy, try to throw it out. YOU CAN'T. WE WON"T LET GO!. Well, for what it's worth, I'm guilty too. I have my share of stuff. Brand new stuff-never been used but I can't throw it away because it "means something" that in the end won't matter to a thing.(Before I say another word, I want it known that I am not angry with anyone here-this is personal, but I want to share with my Numismatic family.)
Well, we're not supposed to live or dwell in the past.. in yesterday. 5 minutes ago doesn't matter NOW! LEARN from the mistakes of the past...YES..but live or dwell in it-NO. And while I can understand, accept and appreciate, both what the Priest and you, Gladiator, are saying. I don't need MORE stuff and I certainly do not need a coin to help me remember a "historical event".... more like an American debacle. American History? Perhaps....more like, living in a false sense of security and the government that had knowledge something like this would happen, blew it off and we got Pearl Harbored all over again!
Instead of doing unusual things with cigars in the Oval Office, instead of being in a state of denial - looking us all dead in the face making it known on National TV that He DID NOT have sex with that woman....maybe, just maybe, he should have listened to his advisors and nipped this thing in the bud before it came to fruition years later. Does the man have remorse? HELL NO...he wasn't ashamed- he even wrote a book and told everybody all about his twisted self-WHY? TO MAKE MORE MONEY! NO SHAME! Pitiful.
2001? I don't need some "Special SAE" to remind me of how I felt and still DO ! ANY old 2001 SAE will do. NO...I would not have one of these special WTC SAEs if you gave me a truckload because it's just going to tick me off. You make a good argument- YOU REALLY DO- but American History...I don't think so! American Foolhardiness at the hands of our leaders and security YES!
After trying to understand and hearing everybody out, this guy and what he is doing still upsets the hell out of me! If he would be GREEDY, with the price being the slaughter of thousands of innocent people...people totally vaporized- not even an earlobe left, and doesn't have a problem with it and this is his claim to financial freedom, Brother, he can have at it... but if this carnival barker was any where around me and asked me to pay HIM $200 for one of these to fatten HIS wallet- I'd be in jail for kicking his stinking A_S. 50 years from now...30 years from now...when all of us are dead and gone DO YOU REALLY think that WTC 2001 Special Edition SAEs will mean a hill of beans to anyone? When everybody who was alive that day IS no longer and 100 years have come and gone...DO YOU REALLY think that coin, stained with the blood of all those souls....do you think Mr Trujillo and all his money, will matter to anyone. I DON'T THINK SO. This will jusy be another situation and Frujillo-no one will remember or even care, except maybe his descendants living off their inheitance.
Everytime I look at your sig line, emotions well up inside of me. THIS DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN! And if we don't watch it, what can, will happen in the future and make THAT day, 9-11-01 look like a minor incident....the day the world ceases to be along with every last one of these special edition WTC DISASTER 2001 SAEs. I don't see any Silver Dollars with atomic bombs vaporizing Hiroshima or Nagasaki on them.
Thanks for everyone's opinions...I DO appreciate them, but this guy and the selling of these coins for personal gain STILL chap my behind and I suppose he and all others like him, always will. I lost a few people I cared about that day FOR NO DAMN GOOD REASON...NOW you know the rest of the story. Thanks. I had a very good rant and feel much better now.
People will act as individuals when not watched closely. Giving them a place of our honor is only earned though respect and sincerity. Reserve your "places of honor" for those who really prove themselves, while they take care of their "family, they are (usually) selfless, and giving towards others. There of many of them/us.
Comments
if that's the worst example of greed you've seen, you need to get out more. just from the link it should be clear that it's really only secondary profiteering and greed, the first being those that issue the items. to that end and since there's a market for the stuff, is it really greed or just a niche being filled, no matter how macabre we might think it is??
George Carlin once said that in America, you can get anything you want. while he made jest of that fact in his skit, i truly believe he admired and enjoyed it at the same time. his example was a Left nostril inhaler that glows in the dark---with your State Motto on the side!!!! if you look around long enough you're gonna find either the item or someone to make it.
al h.
Check out what he/ she says in the item's description for the top item, the 2001 SAE!
There have been several threads about collecting these coins, and other items from this disaster. Many think of these two office buildings as a shrine, but in reality it is just one more place where lots of people got killed. This planet is a very dangerous place and tens of thousands die every day. We Americans are not use to living in the real “Dangerous” world, but if we are not to collect coins from disaster areas, or from periods where disasters were happening then we will all need to just stop. Some of the rarest coins we collect came out of blood battle scenes starting with the revolutionary war. Not to get to political here, but we as a people are just spending too much time and money on this 9-11 issue. Here are just a few examples,
30,000 people in Sudan died this past month murdered by there own government.
There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of
January..... In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month
of January. That's just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war
torn country of Iraq.
FDR... led us into World War II. From1941-1945,
450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
TRUMAN... finished that war and started one in Korea.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334
per year.
JOHN F. KENNEDY... started the Vietnam Conflict in 1962.
JOHNSON. Turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were
lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Most people that collect coins might be horrified to find the microscopic blood still on their coins from the ravages of the world.
JOHNSON. Turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were
lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Ya and let's not forget the 1 million plus Vietnamese who were killed in that as well as the hundreds of thousands of innocents who are STILL being born with severe birth defects as a direct result of dropping chemicals into the water table. Gonna be interesting with all the fish and seafood being imported from Vnam for the last year or so........
Far was the WTC, while in Asia, particularly Thailand, one of the big selling T-shirts there had a picture of none other than OBL on it and it. Saw a lot of those in maylasia too.
Rgrds
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Goldsaint--great post!!! Some of my favorite coins in my meager type set are from the Civil War era--a horrendous event in terms of caualties. >>
Agreed and regarding the war of the 1860's an even greater loss was the beginning of the advance of giant centralized government to which lincoln thought "it was ok" to murder over 600,000 Americans in order to achieve that goal.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
AMEN Tom,
First and foremost, give me your name and phone number and I will respond to your question in person. I am not a coward and will post a response through Ebay as well so that the entire Ebay community will see your question and my response in my auction. I proudly served my country and gave it four years of my life doing things that should not be asked of any human being. Some people think they know what my MOS was while I was enlisted in the Corps but they don't. I can tell you this, I was the best at what I did for this country and will honorably do it again if I was called back into active duty. My family was the reason for me getting out of the Marine Corps and no other reason. Send me your phone number and I will call you. The greedy person you need to call is Leo Garcia, Ebay ID triplexotica. He is the one to answer your question. Only losers like him brag about the millions they've made from these WTC coins. Click on the link below and read for yourself;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39486&item=3902139292
Out of all these two years that I have been selling these coins on Ebay, I have never had anybody ask me the question you have. I find it strange that after triplexotica tried to rip me off calling himself my friend, that I get a question like this one. If he put you up to this or if this is you Leo, I will soon see you in court.
Sincerely,
Miguel Trujillo.
To which I replied....
I wrote and proof read my question to make sure I gave you every opportunity to PLEASE prove me wrong about you. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt by asking you to do so.
So... you take offense to an open, honest question! Like I said, I had hoped I was wrong about you.... but from your defensive response I can see that this "hope" was nothing more than wishful thinking and that you are in fact just someone seeking to line your pockets off the catastrophic misfortune of others.
There IS no noble gesture, is there? By all means DO post this dialogue for all to see. This is a disgrace and as an ex-Marine, you should feel shame. I repeatedly asked you to prove me wrong....to show me that there was and is some noble gesture behind this. Your response - your atitude is answer enough.
Just exactly what type of person capitalizes, still to this day(almost 3 years later) off the tremendous grief and misfortune of many of innocent people? The coin is bad enough but all this secondary market paraphanalia....what is that all about? Patriotism or Capitalism?
For your information, I am not the only one that feels this way. At what point did you see this catastrophe as a money making opportunity? You need not drag anyone else into this as this is MY question aimed directly at you.
WC Segura
pittbreeder
What was your email to the seller? I am quite interested. I choose to hold my opinion regarding these coins. I don't think I ever mentioned how I felt about them on these boards. If I did, it was one time only.
Anyway, your email to him got him kind of upset, so that is why I asked to see what you said to him.
Richard.
" This can't be true...say it's not so or please convince me that you are doing this for a noble cause, to help fatherless and motherless children, orphaned at the hands of cowards- families forever shattered because of this modern day "Pearl Harbor". If this is for any other reason I would be totally disgusted! Tell me, were these your coins sitting in what used to be, the now forever gone, WTC or when they were unearthed did you run out and buy a bunch, seeing this as a Capitalistic Opportunity? If this is the case and you are still making your fortune, your claim to fame almost 3 years later, preying off peoples' emotions, to say that I would be very disappointed would be putting it mildly. Say it isn't so...make me understand what this is truly all about"
From memory- pretty much what I said and meant every word of it!
Fortunately, these people are outnumbered by the "good guys", soldiers, police, firemen and many, many more.
<< <i>...The greedy person you need to call is Leo Garcia, Ebay ID triplexotica. He is the one to answer your question. Only losers like him brag about the millions they've made from these WTC coins. Click on the link below and read for yourself;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39486&item=3902139292
...I find it strange that after triplexotica tried to rip me off calling himself my friend, that I get a question like this one. If he put you up to this or if this is you Leo, I will soon see you in court. >>
Very interesting response you got from this seller.
Russ, NCNE
Sounds like he would fit in well on these boards.
I find his auctions listings amateuristic. I think any invoking of the WTC tragedy to peddle your wares is shameful.
I mean think of the reality of this. This guy is getting wealthy off the misfortune of broken families. The store has everything from Police department patches to the Fire department, Emergency Response teams, etc - bottom line the tremendous loss of life as a result of the luckiest sucker punch thus far of this century. I mean, what light bulb went off in his head, "Oh wow, what a way to make a lot of money!" How fricking twisted is that?
As I told him when I first saw this, I hoped that I was wrong about this and that all the proceeds were going towards the now fatherless and motherless children. Opportunistic Capitalism...his fortune made by the bloodshed of thousands of innocents. Man, that is lower than low! I don't know what else to say. This is disgusting. I'm done...I don't even want to think about it anymore!
<< <i>Someone who dislikes triplexotica (MrPlatinum) ?
Sounds like he would fit in well on these boards. >>
It is important to note there are at least three board members with their lips firmly planted on triplerotica's posterior at all times.
I cannot speak for PCGS, but for them I would assume these were simply nothing more than business as usual.
boom, I understand that people could get upset at this. I put it along the lines of someone selling artifacts from his room and the gun that one of my best friends used to kill himself. Now if the profits were used to help the grieving family, it might be different. It just makes it hard for the families to move on.
I am not sure if the profits from the initial sales of death slabs went to the families of 9/11. If so then they have served their purpose. Whatever happens to the coins after they were sold for charity is capitalism at work. If they couldn't be resold for profit, would they have sold as well as they initially did? If you bought a painting from a charity auction and resold it for 50,000.00 does that make you a crook?
Being a collector, I think they are important pieces of history. 100 years from now, my son will look at it and reflect on what happend that day. This, serving the same purpose as a memorial statue or commemorative coin. Would it make you feel better if they were given away for free?
-That's just my opinion.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>what do you think should have happened to those coins/bullion in the vaults after being found at Ground Zero? >>
Who did they originally belong to? Several questions/ answers, come to mind.
#1- I've been reading for years, forecasters predicting "when" the Govt. silver stockpile would be depleted. How many were in that vault and whose were they?
Why DIDN'T the Government seize them, at least temporarily? In essence this was a Crime scene. If they belonged to the Govt already then the answer would have been simple. They must have belonged to a private party/ entity then...I guess...I really don't know whose they were.
#2- I would answer your question by saying , give them to the families but I can see where that would have proven difficult if not impossible! Bottom line...I suppose you're right. Inevitably, unless the Govt seized them, melted them down and replenished their stockpile, they were going to end up in Capitalists' hands and what is happening was bound to happen.
<< <i>There sure are a lot of people willing to pay 10 times the normal price simply because they were under the WTC >>
There sure are a lot of people willing to pay incredible premiums for coins that were in boats on the bottom of the sea with dead sailors. There sure are a lot of people will to pay incredible premiums for coins that were owned by famous people. There sure are a lot of people that are willing to pay incredible premiums for coins that were hoarded by people that were murdered.
Bottom line is that in the coin businuess two things matter...condition and provenance. Coins without provenance rely on condition for premiums. Coins with increible provenance have an intrinsic value (for lack of a better term) to them that surpases condition....good condition adds to their premiums but bad condition does not neccessarily take away from them. Coin collecting is about history, provenance is about individual history of an item. The more provenance, the more history, the higher the price because more collectors are attracted.
My only point here is that these WTC coins are vitaly important in the history of our country and the world and it is a good thing they exist. They will be treasured far longer than any of us will walk this earth. As far as capitalists and profiteers, they are a part of our society that will not ever go away. They serve their purpose. I believe some of them could be more tactfull and considerate in their dealings but how an individual conducts his/her own business is not for me to dictate.
Edited to add: These coins will help to insure that what happened on that day will never be forgotten. I feel that the events of that day have already begun to fade from some poeples memories and their resolves have weakened. Those that forget what happened in the past are doomed to let it happen again.
What troubles me is the sale of these coins strictly for personal gain at the expense of the lives of many innocent people. What a crappy way to make oneself wealthy. Had he done the same thing and at least split the profit with the bereaved families, THAT would have been...... "acceptable".
While you are at it, blame every American company manufacturing everything from bombs to MRE's for the war on Terrorism. These companies are building their business and increasing profits by directing their output towards the military effort in Iraq. These compaines are hiring Middle Class working Americans who use those wages to put food on their families tables. Companies who use the profits from selling war materials to promote the American economy. You are probably using that wonderful American economy to help your financial future in some way or another. You are complaining about something that you take for granted every day. I am not a rich person. I can't buy anything I want. I can however see the big picture and how this type of business happens on the ultra-large scale and how it ultimately helps the economic stability of the United States of America. The strong American economy would be nil if this sort of thing didn't happen every day. You are borderlining hippocrate. What you are building your argument on is a dead-on attack on capitalism. Nothing was done wrong. These coins were preserved and made to represent what happened on 9/11. The more people that buy these coins, the more money gets moved around. It helps the economy. It preserves the memory of the souls that lost their lives on that day. This is how America works. No one was trying to exploit the deaths of 9/11. They are putting food on the table for their own families. The initial charity sales of these items went to help the families of 9/11. (supposing they did. I cannot understand why they wouldn't.) Should the families ride charities hat-in-hand for support for the rest of our generation? Should they recieve royalties for every item sold with a 9/11 theme? NO!!!! This issue has no basis and is frivilous in nature. Boom, you are a good person and I appreciate your posts and comments but I am sorry but this is America, let it go.
Fortunately, these people are outnumbered by the "good guys", soldiers, police, firemen and many, many more.
Fortunately there are many more "good guys" than resellers of trinkets commemorating tragedy. Yes, WTC recovered bullion coins, and Jessica Lynch slabs have a market, which will always invite sellers like this and companies wishing to commemorate the notoriety.
Someone else mentioned the ongoing atrocities in Sudan. However, I doubt we'll see coins encapsulated to celebrate the long Sudanese civil war since PCGS and others know there is only a tiny collector base for these.
U.S. Civil war memorabilia continues to be a respectable area for collectibles, 140 years after the fact, despite the gruesome details and ongoing controversy. Has the wealth of collectors of civil war memorabilia given Gettysburg and Antietam commemorative coins or Confederate currency and civil war tokens an aura of respectability so that we now consider these necessary to complete our sets?
I'd like to ask the seller in question if his father or grandfather or other relatives might have served in WWII or WWI, Had such an ancestor had the foresight to collect trinkets of disaster, he could have brought home a vial of mustard gas or Cyclon A. (If the reference to the latter eludes you, I will mention that the Nazis exterminated many Jews in the death chambers with Cyclon B. Presumably, its prototype Cyclon A was abandoned because it was not as efficient)
Are there enough sicko collectors out there to make a market for the rare Cyclon A? Is there an authentication company out there who might capitalize on the low surviving population of the "pattern" Cyclon A? There are certainly some collectors out there who would give this proptotype toxin a cherished place in their collection. But at what price?
Given the wealth of some Christian churches, I wonder what would happen if a respected authentication company slabbed the crown of thorns worn by Jesus at His crucifixion and slabbed individual thorns auctioned to the highest bidder. How would we think of a "charity" that wanted one of these for their museum or registry set of famous artifacts of misfortune?
The question of this thread is not whether it is wrong to capitalize off misfortune, but whether there might be a profitable market surrounding authenticated or celebrity-endorsed memorabilia of historically important suffering. If the public has money to spend on a collection that interests them, they will spend it, whether it is right or wrong to do so.
The lack of Sudanese civil war collectibles or obscure WWII chemicals as certified collectibles by a collector company due to lack of demand recalls George Bernard Shaw's famous quote "Virtue is insufficient temptation" or Mark Twain writing "Virtue has never been as respectable as money." Finally I recall actor Victor Buono (the captain of the toy sewer boat in the 1967 movie "Who's Minding the Mint?" and Batman villian) saying "My only aversion to vice is the price."
<< <i>...someone will produce a medal series of white collar criminals...Mrs Helmsley.... >>
That one would knock the Shriver right off the top of the ugly list.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>...someone will produce a medal series of white collar criminals...Mrs Helmsley.... >>
That one would knock the Shriver right off the top of the ugly list.
Russ, NCNE >>
Hey, I'm proud of my Shriver/Special Olympics ugly dollar! It is to the 1990s what the P.T. Barnum commem was to the 1930s. Will it go down in value once there is a Leona Helmsley or Sherman Helmsley commemorative? (I predict that a George Jefferson commemorative will be a "sleeper").
I admire a stand up kind of person and he immediately pointed the finger at himself. He spoke of how he loved to play Golf and has more shirts and sets of Golf shoes...regular shirts and shoes too, more than he could ever possibly need OR use. He asked, "Now, do you really think I need all that?" "Of course not", he answered his own question. I just like shoes and shirts and accumalate them and won't let go because they are like brand new." He asked, "Does this make me greedy?"
He answered, "Yes...with the passage of time I realized that everytime I saw something I liked, I just had to have it...some are 9 years old and don't even fit anymore...NEVER BEEN USED, but, do you know that if I'm out and see a pair of shoes and a shirt today or tomorrow, I'm still going to buy them!" and asked "Can you imagine? Where is the sense in this?" "I could give them away or have given the money I blew needlessly on my self, because I JUST HAD TO HAVE THEM, to some poor person that really lacks the basics of human dignity-the everyday staples of life!"
I guess it's that way for all of us. If you live long enough, you accumalate "Stuff"...all sorts of "STUFF"... stuff that someone could take and we'd never miss but boy, try to throw it out. YOU CAN'T. WE WON"T LET GO!. Well, for what it's worth, I'm guilty too. I have my share of stuff. Brand new stuff-never been used but I can't throw it away because it "means something" that in the end won't matter to a thing.(Before I say another word, I want it known that I am not angry with anyone here-this is personal, but I want to share with my Numismatic family.)
Well, we're not supposed to live or dwell in the past.. in yesterday. 5 minutes ago doesn't matter NOW! LEARN from the mistakes of the past...YES..but live or dwell in it-NO. And while I can understand, accept and appreciate, both what the Priest and you, Gladiator, are saying. I don't need MORE stuff and I certainly do not need a coin to help me remember a "historical event".... more like an American debacle. American History? Perhaps....more like, living in a false sense of security and the government that had knowledge something like this would happen, blew it off and we got Pearl Harbored all over again!
Instead of doing unusual things with cigars in the Oval Office, instead of being in a state of denial - looking us all dead in the face making it known on National TV that He DID NOT have sex with that woman....maybe, just maybe, he should have listened to his advisors and nipped this thing in the bud before it came to fruition years later. Does the man have remorse? HELL NO...he wasn't ashamed- he even wrote a book and told everybody all about his twisted self-WHY? TO MAKE MORE MONEY! NO SHAME! Pitiful.
2001? I don't need some "Special SAE" to remind me of how I felt and still DO ! ANY old 2001 SAE will do. NO...I would not have one of these special WTC SAEs if you gave me a truckload because it's just going to tick me off. You make a good argument- YOU REALLY DO- but American History...I don't think so! American Foolhardiness at the hands of our leaders and security YES!
After trying to understand and hearing everybody out, this guy and what he is doing still upsets the hell out of me! If he would be GREEDY, with the price being the slaughter of thousands of innocent people...people totally vaporized- not even an earlobe left, and doesn't have a problem with it and this is his claim to financial freedom, Brother, he can have at it... but if this carnival barker was any where around me and asked me to pay HIM $200 for one of these to fatten HIS wallet- I'd be in jail for kicking his stinking A_S. 50 years from now...30 years from now...when all of us are dead and gone DO YOU REALLY think that WTC 2001 Special Edition SAEs will mean a hill of beans to anyone? When everybody who was alive that day IS no longer and 100 years have come and gone...DO YOU REALLY think that coin, stained with the blood of all those souls....do you think Mr Trujillo and all his money, will matter to anyone. I DON'T THINK SO. This will jusy be another situation and Frujillo-no one will remember or even care, except maybe his descendants living off their inheitance.
Everytime I look at your sig line, emotions well up inside of me. THIS DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN! And if we don't watch it, what can, will happen in the future and make THAT day, 9-11-01 look like a minor incident....the day the world ceases to be along with every last one of these special edition WTC DISASTER 2001 SAEs. I don't see any Silver Dollars with atomic bombs vaporizing Hiroshima or Nagasaki on them.
Thanks for everyone's opinions...I DO appreciate them, but this guy and the selling of these coins for personal gain STILL chap my behind and I suppose he and all others like him, always will. I lost a few people I cared about that day FOR NO DAMN GOOD REASON...NOW you know the rest of the story. Thanks. I had a very good rant and feel much better now.