Can we have a new policy here of dealer/owner discloser.
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
In a recent post by RegistryCoin, Sunnywood made mention of the fact that TDN was an owner of the Legend Coin Company. It was also brought out that someone new to the forum might not know this. Would it be to picky here to suggest that all of the full time dealers/ part time dealers/ and owners of dealerships post something permanently on the bottom of all their posts disclosing that fact?
Not only will the posts of dealers vary greatly on market, and economic issues, but will also vary on sales prices, of coins, what people are collecting etc.
For example if James Fehr the president of Ellesmere Numismatics came in to post a defense of all the expensive rare coins he was selling, and the market in general, shouldn’t we all be notified that he was the President of a large coin company so we could weigh what he was saying against his conflict of trying to keep the market going?
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Comments
There are a few problems with this:
1) What do you call a dealer? Anyone with a website and inventory? People who casually sell coins on ebay or the BST board? Anyone who has ever sold a coin? Anyone who "makes a living" selling coins?
2) This is an internet forum. I see no reason to mandate anything. Some people want their privacy here. Fine. Some people want to be someone or something they are not. Fine. Some people want to make outrageous or understated claims. Fine. Some people want to participate in a forum where there are not a lot of rules. Fine.
3) Some people have in the past requested that dealers do not post in their sig lines that they are dealers because this may be considered a form of advertising.
4) There are dealers and collectors here that lurk and never post.
Bottom line. When you make a statement about a coin, or an auction, or a dealer, or a collector, assume the party is in the room with you because there is a fair chance that they will read it. A large number of dealers, collectors, auctioneers, and show promoters read these boards and many of them post.
It certainly seems that it would make a difference in their attitudes toward many issues.
Real-Estate brokers, Stock Brokers, and many other people must disclose the fact that they are professionals. Just as a side to this, I am much more interested in the coins posted here by the long time hobbyist, than I would be by a dealer posting their latest acquisition.
I mean how impressed would we all be if David Bowers started posting the coins he just picked up.
In the spirit of practicing what I preach, I'll start: I'm a coin collector, investor and dealer. Always have been, always will be. And I'm always willing to buy or sell anything.
Who's next?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I am not looking for a mandate here from PCGS, but a little discloser here seems like a good thing to me.
Also I am sure you are right that there is lots of B.S. that goes on here with people that have several I.D.s, people that make claims of ownership that are lies, people that steal slab numbers for fake Registries, and people that claim to bid hundreds of thousands in auctions just to pump their ego’s. It is not hard to tell after some time here who is really full of B.S. on many of these issues, and once someone here gets their cards called then they develop the reputation here they deserve. The dealer issue on the other hand seems to me to be a totally different issue. It is not that I see dealers as them and us, but I certainly want an opportunity to weigh the response of a dealer against what is coming out of his mouth.
1) What do you call a dealer? Anyone with a website and inventory? People who casually sell coins on ebay or the BST board? Anyone who has ever sold a coin? Anyone who "makes a living" selling coins?
As to this, lets don’t get too crazy here. If you should be classified as a dealer I think you know that. If you are part owner of a multi-million dollar sales firm, and have inside buying connections, access to all new material, large discounted prices, and get big checks in the mail on a constant basis, then you are a dealer.
The fact is that most “Dealers” here do state on their posts that the are dealers. My question here is how many are not disclosing that?
NWCS
Here is my example of why this makes a difference.
“I mean I got slammed pretty hard the other day on the post about the sale of the 1870 dime when I suggested that paying $661,000 for a coin was a little nuts. I really had no idea that I was being chastised by one of the people that OWNED the company that just made a profit of perhaps $60,000 plus selling that coin. Gee is it too much to ask that the Dealer/Owners here disclose that fact?”
Satisfied newbie,
Louis
P.S. A lot has changed in 11 years but I am quickly being brought up to date, thanks to this forum.
Goldsaint, at the risk of my post being taken the wrong way, if a collector who participates here had sold the coin you mentioned and slammed you for it, what would be the difference, or for that matter the buyer? It's quite likely that you wouldn't have known they owned the coin either, and they'd have likely been just as quick to defend the price.
TDN is a great contributor, as are most of the dealers who participate. I see no more or less conflict of interest in their posts than I do in my own. Many dealers are consumate collectors. Many collectors are shirt-pocket dealers. I read any commentary here with that in mind.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Exactly, and if you didn't know you were swimming with sharks, you do now.
<< <i>In the spirit of practicing what I preach, I'll start: I'm a coin collector, investor and dealer. Always have been, always will be. And I'm always willing to buy or sell anything. >>
Yea, that's me, except I don't think much about the investment part. When you are a middle class collector who buys expensive stuff (several thousand dollars for the most expense coins in my collection in my case), you have to consider the exit strategy. BUT I have never bought a coin for my collection primarily because I thought that it would increase in value.
As a dealer, well that's another story ...
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
When all the shareholders of CLCT start disclosing their stock holdings, then I'll disclose mine.
<< <i>When all the shareholders of CLCT start disclosing their stock holdings, then I'll disclose mine. >>
Excellent point. CLCT shareholder postings could be suspect for many reasons, but we don't seem to worry about that. I'm not suggesting that people owning shares of CLCT ought to disclose it, only that it's really not important.
To the original point, this is a relatively small business where everyone knows everyone for the most part. If a dealer who purposely withheld that fact started posting here, and his posts are self-serving, then the members here are going to call him on it. If his posts are innocuous, there's no problem.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I am sorry for singling you out for part of this discussion, your discloser was just part of another thread this morning. You were correct on the 1870 thread, and after I had a little time to think it over I agreed with the points you made.
Personally I also think you are one of the most intelligent, best informed people on this forum, I just did not know how well connected you were.
“Exactly, and if you didn't know you were swimming with sharks, you do now.”
Thanks Steve !!
K S
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Why not take it one step further? Let's make collectors and investors disclose what coins they own and what coins they are trying to buy or sell? That way, we'll all know when to take their advice and "opinions" with a grain of salt.
In the spirit of practicing what I preach, I'll start: I'm a coin collector, investor and dealer. Always have been, always will be. And I'm always willing to buy or sell anything.
Here here! Ditto
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Great idea! That way I can have multiple dealers and collectors soliciting me to buy and sell and dealers can bid against each other in an auction (thereby jacking up the price) to get the coins I need.
Although not full time...
Some would say I am a wanna be... right EG?
siliconvalleycoins.com
In the best of all possible worlds, anyone who advocates a particular position or takes a stand on a given subject should disclose any possible affiliations or other conflicts of interest that would prevent him or her from having an objective unbiased opinion. On the other hand, as we know all too well from the field of politics, it is human nature to argue in favor of positions that benefit the speaker. Many is the politician who offered a completely disingenuous diatribe, perhaps even against his or her own closely held beliefs, merely because it was the "party line."
In the best of all possible worlds, people are also entitled to freely express themselves, regardless of whether their opinions are fully and fairly formed, and regardless of whether their position is motivated by some form of personal gain. Further, on these Boards, the possibility of anonymity serves to encourage that free expression.
Therefore, while I understand your desire to be able to evaluate a post in the context of the author's professional and personal affiliations, I believe that our liberties are best served by allowing each poster to decide whether and what to disclose. Thus each post that we read must be understood to be an opinion, and possibly even a biased opinion. But in some sense, all opinions are biased !!
For the record, I would never have "outed" TDN as an investor in Legend if he had not already publicly disclosed that fact many times on these Boards. I think that exposing details about Board members without their consent is absolutely unacceptable. When a Board member here viciously attacked me last year, including publishing my name, I withdrew from these Boards for many months. I refrained from complaining to PCGS, although justice would have been served had he been ousted from this forum. Privacy is an important right. Let's allow each Board member to make his or her own decisions as to what disclosures are appropriate.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Real-Estate brokers, Stock Brokers, and many other people must disclose the fact that they are professionals. >>
On a privately owned forum they are required to give out personal information such as that?
In the past I have had some cautionary things to say about high grade modern coins that have sold for very high prices while the same issues in slightly lower grades have sold for much lower prices. For that I have caught a lot flack, but I don’t care. That’s my opinion based upon my experience as a collector for 40+ years and as a dealer for 10 years.
I have written that one is on firmer ground when one pays high prices from older coins that have smaller total populations, overall lower states of preservation and a track record that extends over a period of years. BUT I have also cautioned people that ANYTHING can be overpriced. More recently I have expressed reservations about the very high prices over the published amounts some collectors and speculators are paying for key date coins.
I’m not out to promote anything except the hobby in general. I’ve never participated in marketing scheme to promote specific coins or groups of coins to collectors. My goal has been to give advice and sell coins for more than I’ve paid for them. AND yes, I’ve sold some coins to people and told them at the time that I thought the market was running high on those pieces. AND I have specifically sold coins that I did not care for to dealers at attractive prices because I really did not want to sell them to a collector.
You can believe me or not, but that’s my position when I give opinions on this board and the one across the street.
Here you go again. What are you so worried about? TDN may be a part of legends, but it doesnt have an affect on you anyway, since you were complaining about the "crazy" price paid for the 1870-s dime, and how you were "outside looking in" and basically wanted to know who it was, their birthdate, eye color and weight - not that TDN said something positive about a coin he MAY be connected to.
Most of the dealers DO express their dealership standing (with advertisement links on how to get a hold of them, etc. on their responses). Does it matter TDN was boasting about the half dime? Does it matter he boast's about his 1870-s Dollar?
If someone ever posts negatively about say, the 1794 dollar, I will turn right around and boast how great it is. I have some, for one reason and the other reason(s)? I LIKE them, so I will say something positive. Just because a dealer does not disclose whoe he/she is, and is boasting about some coin(s), doesnt mean you have to BUY it, or have to like it, or even agree with it.
Does anybody have a link to these threads??
where the focus is theoretically on collectiong coins & slamming plastic co's.
We're supposed to be slamming plastic co's??
K S
<< <i>Let's make collectors and investors disclose what coins they own and what coins they are trying to buy or sell? >>
I own worthless moderns, sell worthless moderns, and buy worthless moderns.
Russ, NCNE
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
So that is who TDN is !
<< <i>Can we have a new policy here of dealer/owner discloser. >>
Sure, why not! And, while we're at it, I wish to know
!. What you had for breakfast.
2. How much you drink daily.
3. Amount in your bank account.
4. How often you have sex.
5. Last time you visited the doctor, and, why.
6. Where you are going for dinner.
...
Heh, heh!
No, but his mother's signature is on my college degree and his sister lives in the same city as me....
Laura told me that she is the majority owner of Legend and TDN has a small stake. She also said TDN does not have anything to do with the day to day operations.
If that has changed, TDN , let me know.
I couldn't care less if TDN comments about coins that Legend buys. If I was a partner, I'd be proud to say I was with a firm that bought such neat coins. I sincerely doubt TDN is trying to market coins for Legend here.
This sounds like a thread for people with too much time on their hands.
Mike
I don't eat breakfast.
2. How much you drink daily.
I don't drink - well, except coffee.
3. Amount in your bank account.
Not very damned much.
4. How often you have sex.
Not nearly enough.
5. Last time you visited the doctor, and, why.
Two years ago. Physical. Before that, 25 years, physical. So, my next appointment is in 2027.
6. Where you are going for dinner.
Tonight is Wednesday, so I get to eat garbage - Taco Time perhaps.
Russ, NCNE
I'm married for more than a year ... next stupid question?
Rainbow Stars
It's probably none of my dam* business if they don't.
Disclosure would make me value a persons opinion more but it's still one persons opinion.
One other thought. How many dealers have been slammed for showing a link to there site?
No way to make everyone happy.
and personal finances. I have always hoped that that is other peoples' goal also but ob-
viously not all try and no one can possibly succeed totally. So it seems that it should be up
to the individual to disclose what he believes to be appropriate or necessary.
Just in case anyone has missed it, I consider myself primarily a collector but also a promoter
who has an interest in most all the moderns but especially mint state clad. While I consider
these the result of my beliefs rather than a cause of, there is no chance that I'd intentionally
mislead anyone for personal gain.
Obviously my posts will still be colored by the enthusiasm I feel for the later coins and I will
avoid negative comments about them and very much enjoy pointing out their strenghts.
Single guys.... sheesh!
Rainbow Stars
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
“I mean I got slammed pretty hard the other day on the post about the sale of the 1870 dime when I suggested that paying $661,000 for a coin was a little nuts. I really had no idea that I was being chastised by one of the people that OWNED the company that just made a profit of perhaps $60,000 plus selling that coin. Gee is it too much to ask that the Dealer/Owners here disclose that fact?” >>
I am not sure how that makes a difference? Would you have not said anything if you knew the dealer was reading what you wrote? If that is true, then you probably shouldn't have said anything anyway. Or am I misunderstanding why I would care that the dealer was reading it?
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
In the spirit of following Mr Eureks's practicing what he preaches, I'll disclose:
I'm a coin collector, ex-vestpocket dealer, ex-investor and hoarder. Also ex-collector and stockholder in CLCT and RJR Holdings, also a registered Republican and amateur political and coin commentator. Always have been, always will be. And I'm always willing to negotiate the purchase or sale of anything.
After this posting it becomes increasingly clear that perhaps I should be a large investor in the company that makes No-Doz products?
I have only made 2 sales for the shear profit of it:
1) a 1999 Silver proof set
2) a 1995 W SAE (proceeds went to down payment for a car)
09/07/2006