1871 Seated Liberty Dollar - Any opinions ?

bestbino

EagleEye

Bogus

Cladiator

Can you show some photos of the edge of the coin?

jcping

Does not look good to me based on the photo. The rim is bad.

partagas

Eagleeye, please state why you think it is bogus? I would like to learn to spots fakes. Since they seem to be rampant on Ebay I think this would be very beneficial to all.

Please list things we should look out for.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

mgoodm3

Funky surfaces, grainy. esp. the rims.

agentjim007

It doesn't matter what coin you post the board "experts" always say fake. I'll bet money that coin is good. Look at the fakes on ebay.

bestbino

Here are the edge photos

egde 1
edge 2

agentjim007

check diameter and weight if both are correct it's 99.999% OK

Myqqy

Funky surfaces, grainy. esp. the rims.
The rim is bad.

I don't collect these, but I'm always interested in the topic of fakes and how to spot them. I want some more people to chime in about the rim issue- The denticles look good and crisp, and I can't spot anything that looks weird about the rim. They look a bit scuffy to me, but I assume that could happen through general circulation. The surfaces don't look grainy to me, but rather look like aged 19th century silver- but I'm curious why other people are getting red flags from this particular coin....

coinlieutenant

I think it should weight 23.8 grams??

That is off the top of my head though... let me check..

coinlieutenant

Nope... 26.7 grams...

ziggy29

<< <i>Eagleeye, please state why you think it is bogus? I would like to learn to spots fakes. Since they seem to be rampant on Ebay I think this would be very beneficial to all. >>

As I see it, I'm seeing a general grainy appearance with what seems like loss of detail. This makes me suspect a struck copy from dies created by a transfer process.

Plus, I've seen a LOT of bogus seated dollars dated 1871 for some reason. That's circumstantial, but in conjunction with the general lack of fine detail and the funny rims, I'm thinking it could be transfer die counterfeit -- perhaps spark erosion or other one-to-one transfer process? I'm not an expert but I believe the rims, the grainy surfaces and the lack of detail are prime characteristics of struck copies from transfer dies.

bestbino

The Diameter measures 1.495 " that equals aprox. 38MM

I do not have a weight scale.

coinlieutenant

38mm is right but to me weight is more important.

partagas

Thanks for the replies. I always love to learn.

ziggy29

<< <i>38mm is right but to me weight is more important. >>

As is a bell-like tonal quality if tapped with a pencil. If it thuds when you tap it and has no bell-like ring, it's also indicative of a fake.

jcping

> It doesn't matter what coin you post the board "experts" always say fake.

If a coin is good, then it is good., If a coin is fake, then it is bad (aka no good).
How many times you saw Rick said a coin is no good.

bestbino

A couple more rim photos.

EagleEye

Actually it just looks bad, its an instinct. Sure, it could have been pickeled in acid and some other stuff as well, but look at the denticles. That's what looks bad first off - they are narrow and shallow. The rims look a bit too high relief. This is typical for Asian fakes - the dies are copied from real coins, but the rims (on the die) are easily enhanced with a lathe. The edge looks real funky - are those file marks? why is the edge reeds so shallow?

EVillageProwler

Some would say I've seen a Seated Dollar or two in my day. With this coin, it just looks like an undesirable piece to me. That is, it looks "off". My instincts told me immediately to question its authenticity. What threw me immediately was the rim and denticle detail too. There are a few other aspects that look questionable to me too, but the rim+denticles are worst to me.

EVP

EagleEye

According to Coin World, the ANA and ebay have teamed up to stop sellers of fakes. The idea is this: A small group of "lookers" search for problems, such as sellers who sell only wizzed and cleaned coins, or sellers who sell only fakes (I think they are looking for multiple offenders) The auctions are forwarded to the ANA for review. If the ANA deems them a problem seller, they will tell ebay, and ebay will (hopefully) act on it and remove the sale and block the seller from further auctions.

I just noticed a new announcment on the sellers page on ebay as well.

MFH

I have to defer to Rick Snow's observation. I'm not an authority on seated dollars. Its a good fake though. I have learned a lesson quite a while ago, buy only from reliable dealers, and if not them, then buy certified coins from the top four TPG services ( PCGS, NGC, ANACS & ICG ).

I wouldn't even think of buying a raw coin on Ebay. Its just too risky.

homemade

This is why I come to this board. So much valuable information and education. Something about that rim looked a little funky to me as well, but I couldn't quite put mym finger on it.
Thanks for the comparison pics Rick.

Conder101

I think it looks a little odd, but not off enough for me to condemn it just from the pictures. If it is a fake it is MUCH better than most of them. I would want to get a weight and specific gravity of it.

dorkkarl

i suspect it is REAL. if fake, it is a very good fake, imo. however, i think it's just a corroded xf, net vf coin.

from a digi-pic, corroded surfaces are indistinguishable from counterfeit grainy surfaces.

K S

bestbino

Well Here is the lastest update on the weight. I don't have any idea what a fake coin should weight-- More or Less then the Real One.
Anyway, I took a little trip to the fancy Jewelry Store and got this coin weighted.

This coin weighted in at 23.7 Grams.

Now I can't find a chart showing the range in Weight for particular coins. I would assume that every coin will lose weight over a period of time from circulation.

I have been playing around with several Morgans and found they do in fact have a range in weight.


WEIGHT CONVERSION
23.7 Grams equals 365.747 Grains

LanLord

On page one there was a post stating the correct weight of 26.7 grams.

I wouldn't thing 3 grams worth of wear has been done to that coin, that is suspect.

EagleEye

Judging from the price paid, and the seller, you should not expect anything more than what you got. As I posted in the thread where you got the coin, these are available for less than $1 in China. There have even been some Asian sellers selling them on ebay. Anyway, It's guys like this seller who should be alerted to the ANA/ebay counterfeit commision!


Look at all the counterfeits he's selling!

Similar coin on ebay from same seller

ziggy29

For someone who "knows nothing about coins," as all those auctions say, he sure seems to specialize in Seated and Trade Dollars. Wonder how someone who knows *nothing* about coins manages to get so many of the same type?

Here's another fake peddler we need to shut down.

coinlieutenant

If that is what it weighs... it is fake...

Conder101

Legal weight for a seated dollar is 26.73 grams +/- .097 grams. A coin worn down to Good would not have lost that much weight. Like coinlieutenant says, f that weight is accurate then it is a fake.

Elcontador

There are no 'bargains' to be found in numismatics if you are dealing with a knowledgeable party. You may get lucky and find an unusual variety of a coin that a type collector has who is not aware of it, but other than outright taking advantage of an unsuspecting seller, there are no deals to be had.

There are a number of fake Trade & Seated Dollars around, most of which were made in Asia. Some of them are so good, that they can fool many who see them. When I was in Vietnam, I got an 1875 CC Trade $ that was so good, it fooled half of the dealers to whom I showed the coin at a Long Beach Show. Even the good fakes usually don't look quite right. Though the diameter of the coin & weight may be right (they were on my coin), often the metal content is also off. The 'ping' of the coin when you thump it on a hard surface may give this away.

Bottom line is that if you see a coin that's worth a few hundred dollars and you can buy it for a fraction of that, chances are that it's a problem coin. There's usually a good reason why an otherwise valuable coin is being sold to you raw. To me, a raw coin almost always is a problem coin.

EagleEye

In the recent edition of The Gobrecht Journal, Bert Schlosser tells about these fake pieces.

He says that these are 80% tin. That you can buy them for under $5, and bought a lot of 100 pieces dated 1845 and 1846 for $1.90 each from sellers in China. (If you want any of these 1871 and 1872 pieces, he's selling them for $8.)

He says that there is a huge operation cranking out Bust Dollars, Trade Dollars, Seated Dollars and world crowns.


Membership to Liberty Seated Collectors Club is only $15, a small price to pay for knowledge.

bestbino

Well, so far Eagle Eye has come up with the most concrete evidence. I know for a fact that he is correct about the China Syndrome! I actually have a 1799 Bust from there


Now this one is easily detectable because of the Majestic Eagle on the Back. It is NOT! Just a common Boston Park Pigeon hanging around to unload on some Dems at the Convention. The pigeon can't handle the Arrows, so it is just holding on to a few pointless sticks.
As for the Liberty, I have actually talked to the Seller. He said "I no nothing about coins" I just buy jewelry and these all came in a small tube when I purchase a jewerly lot. I have no interest in coins, so I'm just selling them off". Well, he surely knows nothing about coins. Actually less then I do, now that's really bad.
Anyway, if this was actually made from 80% tin, then I would say the weight should be Way off. I may just buy the friggin last three and start a counterfeit collection. I already have a good start. Maybe I can write a book when I collect the complete set.
Thanks for all your inputs.
Jeff