Question for all ANA Member Dealers regarding the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics

FatMan · July 24, 2004 4:05AM

Direct quote from the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics - "To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate
with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.

To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability." ANA Dealer Code of Ethics

How do you interpret this code? What are your practices regarding making offers to non collectors who bring coins to you for sale. And where do you draw the line when evaluating violations in the code by other member dealers? Please be as concise as possible.

Collectors are welcome to reply with your views too. Please identify yourself as a collector in your reply.

This has been posted by a collector.

jogbill · July 24, 2004 5:03AM

Great question.
A politician must have written this stuff. What is a reasonable return? 10%? 30%? 50%? Without specifics it's up to the dealer. It leaves so much flexibility that you could drive a truck through it.
I am a collector not a dealer.
Bill

Conder101 · July 24, 2004 5:23AM

I'm a collector, but I have worked as a dealer in the past.

Frankly it is a meaningless and impossible statement.

"To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate
with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate."

Dealers are supposed to try and ensure a reasonable return to the seller? They bought it at retail, now I'm supposed to buy it and try to ensure THEM a reasonable return? And I'm also supposed to try and ensure a reasonable rate of return on MY investment? With reguards to the prevailing rate? Prevailing rate of what? Interest rates, typical dealer mark up of 20% - 40%, Money market rates? Sounds like a new economic theory for coin dealers Buy high, sell higher. Look for the greater fool. Of course when he wants to sell the dealer is suposed to step in and be the next greater fool, and look for yet another.

Ok I admit it says TRY to purchase and sell, but often it's going to be an "only one of us has the chance to make anything on this and it's going to have to be me" situation

BAJJERFAN · July 24, 2004 6:28AM

Condor; are yu sure you understand the post? You don't OWE the seller a profit. You offer HIM a fair price for HIS coin that will give YOU a fair profit if you sell. Doesn't matter if he bought it from you or not.

FatMan · July 24, 2004 9:33AM

TTT

wingedliberty · July 24, 2004 10:03AM

The ANA Dealer Code of Ethics is a worthless. When I renewed my membership this year, by new membership card came in a foldout letter and it said on it "Your membership is sponsored by Littleton Coin".
Littleton coin is a demonic piece of sh%& and their business practices are the furthest thing from ethical.
By targeting boy scouts on approval plans with microscopic fine print and charging 5 times Red Book value for circ and near dateless Buffalos and for cleaned Morgans in VG, that was enough for me to say that this statement about Dealer Code of Ethics has about as much value as a middle east peace plan or an Iraqi Dinar.
I will always be an ANA member and enjoy the social and educational aspect of what they do, but as far as the Dealer Code of Ethics, well I have only one other three letter word, ACG!!!!!!, as far as I am concerned both Littleton and ACG can burn in hell and the ANA is on thin ice with me. It has to take a firm stance on these cancerous blights on the hobby or else it is just an educational organization, which is fine with me, if you want to be an educational organization, then don't publish a dealer code of ethics, because it has zero value. IMHO.

mrearlygold · July 24, 2004 10:34AM

ttt

nankraut · July 24, 2004 10:38AM

TextWingedLiberty: I agree with you 100%

FatMan · July 24, 2004 11:34AM

Where are all the Dealers? I thought this would be an informative thread. The silence is deafening.

FatMan · July 25, 2004 12:06AM

ttt

majorbigtime · July 25, 2004 1:10AM

<< <i> as far as I am concerned both Littleton and ACG can burn in hell and the ANA is on thin ice with me. It has to take a firm stance on these cancerous blights on the hobby . >>

Can't say you mince your words!!

BTW, I fully agree with you!

mrearlygold · July 25, 2004 1:29AM

I will always be an ANA member and enjoy the social and educational aspect of what they do, but as far as the Dealer Code of Ethics, well I have only one other three letter word, ACG!!!!!!, as far as I am concerned both Littleton and ACG can burn in hell and the ANA is on thin ice with me. It has to take a firm stance on these cancerous blights on the hobby

The ANA is being sued accordingly. I think you can expect in-depth discovery etc.

How do you feel about the ANA being sued by these people?

Tom

wingedliberty · July 25, 2004 1:49AM

I feel that the lawsuits by them are frivolous and laughable. , if you are talking about ACG and Littleton?.,
I think that if they are suing the ANA , its

Conder101 · July 25, 2004 2:48AM

<< <i>Condor; are yu sure you understand the post? You don't OWE the seller a profit. You offer HIM a fair price for HIS coin that will give YOU a fair profit if you sell. Doesn't matter if he bought it from you or not. >>

Yes I think I understand the code as it is written. Note the section in bold.

<< <i>"To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate. >>

That sounds to me like the dealer is supposed to ensure a profit to the seller. A fair price will seldom offer the seller a "reasonable return". Unless he has held his coins a LONG time or the market has risen considerably.

coinguy1 · July 25, 2004 3:06AM

Fats, my impression is that most ANA dealers are not even familiar with the specifics of the "ANA Dealer Code of Ethics". Some of those who are, might have been become so because formal complaints were made against them.

mrearlygold · July 25, 2004 3:14AM

<< <i>I feel that the lawsuits by them are frivolous and laughable. , if you are talking about ACG and Littleton?.,
I think that if they are suing the ANA , its

>>

ACG is suing the ANA. You think it's funny? You think that the combined litigation costs could total several hundred thousand dollars is funny?

Whew
Tom

razorface1027 · July 25, 2004 3:18AM

I'm a collector. Fatman---ETHICS? C'mon, let's be real fer cryin' out loud. I've had nothing but sheer rip-off artists regarding re-sale of MY numismatic items. Furthermore, they're quote/un-quote A.N.A. members. When it comes to money, or the making of such monies, "Ethics" is found far and few in between. I'd like to believe that ethics are intergrated when the sale of said items are a issue---BUT....

JMHO

FatMan · July 25, 2004 3:54AM

OK, Ok now. I am not asking if the code of ethics is enforced or even of any value. I'm asking for your interpretation of the meaning of the words.

So lets try this again by me rephrasing the question........

Based upon the ANA Code of Ethics, what behavior does the ANA expect from an ANA dealer regarding the points I've quoted above? Again, specifics would help. ie: anything less than half of blue sheet is not a fair offer.

razorface1027 · July 25, 2004 4:09AM

"Fair" would be based on conceptualization of individual dealers. My concept, your concept, and "Joe Blow's" concept are 3 different fortays. I guess it would be based on the person/persons I'm dealing with, and weather or not it's WITHIN, and I emphasize WITHIN, A.N.A. standards. To put it bluntly, if I can get away with making more money than what A.N.A.s "Ethics" statements may be or below bluesheet expectations, I'm gonna do it. I'm not in the business of "Laughing a gift horse in the mouth," so to speak. If a superlative deal hits me square in the chops, I'm not going to pass on it awhile reviewing A.N.A. standard ethics clauses. Sorry---that's just not me. I hope I'm comprehending your query correctly.

Edited to add: And, as Madmarty so plainly expresses it---"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing milkbone underware."

MrEureka · July 25, 2004 5:43AM

To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.

I can't say I'm impressed with that language. Interestingly, the next line of the Code of Ethics is even worse: "To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability." What does that mean???

Nevertheless, I can't see how anyone can argue with the spirit of the of the Code of Ethics.

BTW, I'm sure the ANA would be glad to review and consider any specific suggestions for alternative text.

relayer · July 25, 2004 6:59AM

It mearly means don't try and get too greedy, or we'll get complaints about you

MrEureka · July 25, 2004 7:10AM

BTW, the Members Code of Ethics (to which dealers must also abide) may address some of your concerns.

wingedliberty · July 25, 2004 7:57AM

I don't think that the fact that the ANA should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend itself against a cancerous blight on the hobby like ACG is funny at all.
My statement was meant to convey the humerous and frivolous nature of the lawsuit. The fact that ACG would sue anybody is laughable. The hobby should unite and sue ACG and put them out of business once and for all.
As far as the language in the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics, its about as enforcable and full of merit as a middle east peace plan. One has to conclude that its there strictly as a feel good mechanism for those who are joining, what in my opinion, is now a strictly educational organization. As far as ethics in numismatics, there are few and far between.

Question for all ANA Member Dealers regarding the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics

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