Proof VS circ

Zulan

I have seen (in my limited experience) that there is a huge difference between the grading of circulated coins and proof coins. Proofs are judged at a whole different level than circulated coins. The values (at least the price guide values) are tremendously different. What is keeping me (or anyone) from opening a... say 1962 proof set, digging out the nickel and trying to pass it as a circulated coin, thus upping the potential value?

If some kid snatches one of his dad's proof sets for the cash and spends it, what prevents some sharp eyed coin (inexperienced) collector for grabbing the nickel out of the till, and honestly thinking he has an awesome circulated nickel?

While I know most dealers are honest, I also know if there is an easy scam, there will be people taking advantage of it. Unslabbed coins being sold to relative newbies trying to get up to speed would seem to me to be an ideal place to run this deal.

Just curious.
Zulan

BillJones

Most experienced collectors and any dealer, who has the brains to survive in this business, can easily tell the difference between a Proof and a business strike (circulation strike) coin in the modern series. For some 19th century coins and some early 20th century coins (the various styles of Matte Proofs) the distinctions become more difficult.

At any rate there is really no chance that you could pass off a modern Proof, even a somewhat impaired one, upon an experienced collector or dealer as a business strike coin. Even in the lightly circulated grades, the differences are still apparent.

The thing to remember is that the term “Proof” refers to a process or a way of making a coin. It is not a condition. Much greater care is taken in making Proof coins than business strikes, and at least in the American series, most collectors can tell the difference.

DaveG

Actually, there isn't a difference in the method of grading of proof and business-strike coins, but their difference in manufacture makes the proofs look very different.

While it's always possible to fool the unsophisticated collector, it's not that difficult to spot the difference between a modern proof and a modern business-strike coin.

Proof coins are struck twice by polished dies. As a result, their surfaces are different (although not always cameo-contrast) and their details are much stronger. Always look at the edge, which should be very sharp, not rounded like a business-strike coin.

Now, if you're talking about 19th century proofs, sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference between proof and business-strike coins, especially in years when only a thousand or two business-strike coins were made. Fortunately, one can look at reference books that show the diagnostics of proof dies and tell the difference.

coinguy1

Zulan,

In some instances Proofs are more valuable than business strikes and in other cases, the opposite is true- it depends upon the particular coin type and date, etc.

In almost every case, there will be noticeable/obvious differences between a Proof and a business strike. If a would-be buyer really knows his stuff it would be all-but-impossible to fool him. On the other hand, if the buyer doesn't know what he's doing, he could be taken advantage of, just as he could be in numerous other scenarios.

cladking

It's usually not very difficult to tell a proof from a mint state coin because of the
flat fields, and square rims on the proof. With the later dates there's also the mint
mark.

I'm surprised I never heard of anyone substituting a nice PL '68 Roosy into a 1968
proof set and selling it as a no-S variety. Now days though it might be a money los-
ing proposition.

Such switches do crop up over the decades and they can go either way. At one time
there were a lot of clad proof '73 Ikes being put into the brown boxes.

kranky

There are some older coins where it can be quite difficult to tell because they used the same dies for circulation strikes after the proof coinage was made.

For recent coins, the difference is obvious. You can take a cheap modern proof coin and carry it in your pocket for a while and still be able to tell.

Conder101

<< <i>I'm surprised I never heard of anyone substituting a nice PL '68 Roosy into a 1968 proof set and selling it as a no-S variety. Now days though it might be a money losing proposition. >>


There have been cases on ebay of people inserting a PL 1990 business strike cent into 1990 Premire Proof sets and selling them as 1990 "No S" sets. This works because it is possible to carefull open the outer case of the Premire set and remove the inner holder. The set is cut open, the cent switched and the set reassembled. The outer case then hides the tampering done to the inner holder.

cladking

<< <i>
There have been cases on ebay of people inserting a PL 1990 business strike cent into 1990 Premire Proof sets and selling them as 1990 "No S" sets. This works because it is possible to carefull open the outer case of the Premire set and remove the inner holder. The set is cut open, the cent switched and the set reassembled. The outer case then hides the tampering done to the inner holder. >>



I wasn't aware of this but it should work much better with the 1990 cent. The big reason
is that Philly cents can be found in the mint sets which are nearly flawless and very PL with
relative ease. The 1968 proof sets are more difficult to open cleanly but can be accomplished
after a few tries. Also the PL '68 dimes are very hard to find and are not as close to the proof
in quality as are the cents.