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Is an additional grade point or two worth megabuck$?????
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
I've been collecting for half a decade, and am amused and bemused by the extraordinary prices super-grade "top pop" coins bring. It seems even more absurd when it comes to "moderns", which for me is anything coined after they stopped minting walker halves (the year I was born).
Back in the 50s and 60s, my Dad (RIP) and I would attend major coin shows (then called "conventions") and occasionally would pay a premimum over Red Book for a "gem". Back then, there only was one price listing for an "uncirculated" coin, and differentiation was often by "choice" or "gem" designations. Most gems could be had for 25-50% over "Book", a modest premimum when considering the price difference between an average MS63 and a coin with a lofty grade of MS66-67 or higher.
If I had a time machine, I would go back to a show in the 50s with a sign around my neck saying "I pay over Book for gem coins" and buy everying in sight!
The advent of the grading services changed the market. I've slabbed some of my old acquisitions, and own the "top pop" 1872 two cent piece (1st gen PCGS MS66RD) and 1812 half (1st gen PCGS MS66). They are worth tons more than an ordinary "unc". I also have had so-called gems come in with low grades. I have a proof Barber half that only slabbed PF63 at PCGS, but it still looks as good as most 65s! WHen you consider what happened when the King of Siam coins were regraded (twice), you have to wonder about the subjectivity of grading and the grading services. I sometimes wonder if the grading services, which are commercial enterprises, stir it up to generate revenues form regrades!
All of this considered, I personally stay away from ultra high grades at ultra high prices and have for years. I cherish the few pieces I have acquired years ago that are "top pop", but wouldn't buy 'em at today's outrageous prices. I beleive there is god value in nice, eye appealing mid-grade uncirculated and proof coins and also like original circulated type pieces (they have "character").
In my opinion the biggest absurdity is the crazy prices ultra grade moderns sometimes sell for. Frankly, I wonder if they really sell at lofty prices or are just run-up auction rebuys. You won't see me sheling out big buck$ for a Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Frankie or Kennedy! To me, this would border on insanitity!!
I also question the validity of the population reports. There must be many high grade coins in old line family and institutional collections that the grading services have never set eyes on. As for moderns, there are probably many bags, rolls proof and mint sets that contain unslabed ultra grade coins. So why all the excitement of a "top pop" coin priced at megabuck$??
I would be interested in the views of other forum members, and recognize that I may be considered to be an old geezer who is out of tune with the real world in modern times who just "doesn't get it"
Back in the 50s and 60s, my Dad (RIP) and I would attend major coin shows (then called "conventions") and occasionally would pay a premimum over Red Book for a "gem". Back then, there only was one price listing for an "uncirculated" coin, and differentiation was often by "choice" or "gem" designations. Most gems could be had for 25-50% over "Book", a modest premimum when considering the price difference between an average MS63 and a coin with a lofty grade of MS66-67 or higher.
If I had a time machine, I would go back to a show in the 50s with a sign around my neck saying "I pay over Book for gem coins" and buy everying in sight!
The advent of the grading services changed the market. I've slabbed some of my old acquisitions, and own the "top pop" 1872 two cent piece (1st gen PCGS MS66RD) and 1812 half (1st gen PCGS MS66). They are worth tons more than an ordinary "unc". I also have had so-called gems come in with low grades. I have a proof Barber half that only slabbed PF63 at PCGS, but it still looks as good as most 65s! WHen you consider what happened when the King of Siam coins were regraded (twice), you have to wonder about the subjectivity of grading and the grading services. I sometimes wonder if the grading services, which are commercial enterprises, stir it up to generate revenues form regrades!
All of this considered, I personally stay away from ultra high grades at ultra high prices and have for years. I cherish the few pieces I have acquired years ago that are "top pop", but wouldn't buy 'em at today's outrageous prices. I beleive there is god value in nice, eye appealing mid-grade uncirculated and proof coins and also like original circulated type pieces (they have "character").
In my opinion the biggest absurdity is the crazy prices ultra grade moderns sometimes sell for. Frankly, I wonder if they really sell at lofty prices or are just run-up auction rebuys. You won't see me sheling out big buck$ for a Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Frankie or Kennedy! To me, this would border on insanitity!!
I also question the validity of the population reports. There must be many high grade coins in old line family and institutional collections that the grading services have never set eyes on. As for moderns, there are probably many bags, rolls proof and mint sets that contain unslabed ultra grade coins. So why all the excitement of a "top pop" coin priced at megabuck$??
I would be interested in the views of other forum members, and recognize that I may be considered to be an old geezer who is out of tune with the real world in modern times who just "doesn't get it"
0
Comments
<< <i>I also question the validity of the population reports. There must be many high grade coins in old line family and institutional collections that the grading services have never set eyes on. As for moderns, there are probably many bags, rolls proof and mint sets that contain unslabed ultra grade coins. So why all the excitement of a "top pop" coin priced at megabuck$?? >>
The population reports reflect only those coins graded by a particular TPG not every coin ever minted. Fer instance the pop reports for PCGS graded 1881-S Morgans reflect only the 1881-s Morgans actually submitted to PCGS. Of course crackouts and resubmissions can skew the numbers if the original cert tag is not removed from the pop reports.
Also its your choice as to whether or not you agree with the grade on the holder. There are obvious differences between a coin graded ms 65 and one graded ms 67 so it stands to reason that one ought to be worth more to a collector looking for the finest example that he can find.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>In my opinion the biggest absurdity is the crazy prices ultra grade moderns sometimes sell for. Frankly, I wonder if they really sell at lofty prices or are just run-up auction rebuys. You won't see me sheling out big buck$ for a Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Frankie or Kennedy! To me, this would border on insanitity!!......................I would be interested in the views of other forum members, and recognize that I may be considered to be an old geezer who is out of tune with the real world in modern times who just "doesn't get it" >>
Thanks for the popcorn--but what does it mean??
<< <i>I've been collecting for half a decade, and am amused and bemused by the extraordinary prices super-grade "top pop" coins bring. It seems even more absurd when it comes to "moderns", which for me is anything coined after they stopped minting walker halves (the year I was born). >>
In many ways it is actually more logical for percentage premiums to be higher
for most moderns because there tends to be a greater variation and spread
in quality in these coins. Where older coins are normally collected in worn con-
ditions the newest coins are usually collected in unc. It's hardly surprising that
collectors would avoid the poorly made coins. Generally these poorly made
coins were made in huge numbers and while they may no longer be common since
most are circulated, they are far more available than gems.
<< <i>
The advent of the grading services changed the market. I've slabbed some of my old acquisitions, and own the "top pop" 1872 two cent piece (1st gen PCGS MS66RD) and 1812 half (1st gen PCGS MS66). They are worth tons more than an ordinary "unc". I also have had so-called gems come in with low grades. I have a proof Barber half that only slabbed PF63 at PCGS, but it still looks as good as most 65s! WHen you consider what happened when the King of Siam coins were regraded (twice), you have to wonder about the subjectivity of grading and the grading services. I sometimes wonder if the grading services, which are commercial enterprises, stir it up to generate revenues form regrades! >>
The grading services did not begin the advent of collecting the highest grade that
one can afford, or understand. This has been a trend which has been building for
generations. When the services started people sent in their AG '16-D dimes but for
obvious reasons did not send in their AU 1979 quarters. In fact for the first ten years
there was no interest in even sending in their MS-68 '79 quarters because there were
still no collectors for these coins and they were still not being saved for this reason.
Indeed some grading services not only didn't grade later date coins but they wouldn't
grade them as well.
The grading services have greatly facilitated the ability of collectors to work on sets of
very high grade coins. Can you imagine the difficulty of building a gem walker collect-
ion back in the '60's. Where were you going to find rolls of '18-D halfs to pick through
for the finest coins. Where would you find a dealer willing to search his inventory for a
choice '34 cent and why would you believe any dealer might actually be capable of
knowing a really good example from a more typical one?
You can't blame the rise of the moderns on the grading services.
<< <i>
All of this considered, I personally stay away from ultra high grades at ultra high prices and have for years. I cherish the few pieces I have acquired years ago that are "top pop", but wouldn't buy 'em at today's outrageous prices. I beleive there is god value in nice, eye appealing mid-grade uncirculated and proof coins and also like original circulated type pieces (they have "character"). >>
This is very much the point. Most collectors do cherish the highest grade coins and
it is this that drives the demand to be greater than the supply.
<< <i>
In my opinion the biggest absurdity is the crazy prices ultra grade moderns sometimes sell for. Frankly, I wonder if they really sell at lofty prices or are just run-up auction rebuys. You won't see me sheling out big buck$ for a Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, Frankie or Kennedy! To me, this would border on insanitity!! >>
You may be overlooking a couple of very key points here: The moderns are often
just as rare either in mintage or in grade as the older coins yet they sell for a tiny
fraction of the price due to a small demand. Also the modern market is the most
rapidly growing segment of the market and is generally populated by much younger
collectors.
This is not to say that these coins should be purchased because they will be more
expensive in the future. It's impossible to predict what the new collector will seek
next and collectors should collect what they like, not what might increase in value.
<< <i>
I also question the validity of the population reports. There must be many high grade coins in old line family and institutional collections that the grading services have never set eyes on. As for moderns, there are probably many bags, rolls proof and mint sets that contain unslabed ultra grade coins. So why all the excitement of a "top pop" coin priced at megabuck$??
>>
Certainly populations reported by grading companies are not always very reflective
of the true populations of coins. But remember there are virtually NO old time col-
lections of modern coins because people were not saving new coin after 1965.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Hey Fats, I'm new to these boards.What does it mean when somebody just requotes portions of the original post? I don't get it!
Thanks for the popcorn--but what does it mean?? >>
LOL
<< <i>I'm with you to some extent no the moderns majorbigtime. I cannot get too exceited about paying hundreds sometimes thousands for 70's, 80's, and 90's coins when I know there will be many more to come. For those with the money to burn it's all about bragging rights on pop top coins. Hey to each their own.
Chris >>
I think you may be surprised on just how many of the high grade coins have already
been submitted. Most moderns being submitted had been in a mint issued set shortly
before someone located it and shipped it off. These sets have been coming onto the
market for decades and there is not an endless supply of these. Eventually the flow
will slow to the point that intact set collectors will suck the market dry. Very large per-
centages of mint sets had been destroyed long before high grade examples ever had
any premium. When these sets dry up then the numbers of gems being graded will
slow to a trickle. In fact when this occurs the populations are likely to stabilize even more
than many of the older coins since there will be very few old collections being discovered.
<< <i>Hey Fats, I'm new to these boards.What does it mean when somebody just requotes portions of the original post? I don't get it! Thanks for the popcorn--but what does it mean?? >>
majorbigtime, you have unknowingly entered the world of "Modern Bashing". This topic comes up often and always makes for a good show. As a collector of classics and moderns I prefer to sit back with my popcorn and watch the show instead of entering the fray myself. BTW, Welcome to the Forum.
Keep the "Moderns," gimme he oldies.
The modern comment was actually a side bar, my main thrust is that I can't see paying a big premimum for an extra grade poin or two, especially so when the grading services are inconsistent both between services and within the same service, as best demonstrated by the King of Siam set! This applies to all coins, old or modern, but seems more acute for moderns IMO.
I also agree that there is a big difference between condition scarcity and true rarity. I can afford the scarce, but not the rare. I have enough of the moderns that I hope increase in demand will keep pricing stable.
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
To each their own.
<< <i>Hey Fats, I'm new to these boards.What does it mean when somebody just requotes portions of the original post? I don't get it!
Thanks for the popcorn--but what does it mean?? >>
also ....
many people respond to a particular post ...and quoting the post that you are responding to saves having to guess which one is receiving
the response...did i confuse you?
I'm with you, on all counts.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
David,
Good reply. Many people want the best that they can obtain, myself included.
So, start with majorbigtime's "unc" of the 1960's, take away the fingerprint (one point), take away the spots (another point or two), take away the big scratch on Lincolns forehead (another point), and finally find one with a full strike (especially the left upper part of the "O" of "ONE on the reverse). Then add great color and luster and you've got what I collect. It just so happens that there are very few early Lincolns like this and that's why they are very expensive. If you want to pay less and don't mind a scratch here or a spot there, you can find those coins too. Now, is a single small scratch (let's say one point) worth $5,000-10,000? Sometimes yes and sometimes no, it all depends on the coin and rarity.
It's not that I don't want to own the best example of a particular coin, and it's not that I wouldn't want to own the
best example of something that's available. But what I really want is to have a collection of coins that look
nice together, and makes me happy with them. Many times the coins I buy are middle grades but they
work well with the exsting coins that I have.
I always enjoy looking at the best of the best examples that are shown on these (and other) boards. I
greatly respect those collectors that own them and have the patients, funds and talent to collect in that rarefied
strata of numismatica. But I don't live there now, and probably won't unless something radically changes in the
future.
With the advent of third party grading and the population reports, collectors now know that the monster super gem coins they are buying are just that and not just being hyped as such by a good salesman. This has caused the spreads for the best of the best to increase over time to where they are now. I see no reason for this to change back to the good old 60's way, barring an economic collapse of the US economy. If you do not believe in the premiums paid for the super grade coins you have a simple solution, don't buy them.
Personally, I like to own the best I can find. That is why I collect Commems and not Bust dollars. I could not afford to put a set of finest known Bust dollars together. Other people do not have the means to own the best of a particular series so they collect the best of what they can afford. There is nothing to be ashamed about by putting together a set of problem free XF-AU Buffalo nickels. It is a wonderful set and is very difficult to complete in problem free condition. The same can be said about other series as well.
some grade and this simply is not true. There are many moderns which are extremely
rare in any grade and these coins too sell for a small fraction of what an older coin
would sell for. There is much more to the modern phenomenon than merely collecting
on the wrong side of the tracks. Just as there are $5,000,000 homes in California
which are bigger and fancier than one needs, this exact same house moved to the wilds
of Indiana would sell for less than one million.
Modern prices are low because they are not widely collected by serious numismatists
yet, but they are being collected by millions who learn more every day. It isn't that the
coins are common which makes most of them very low price in the lower grades it is a
remarkable lack of demand. Certainly in many cases it's simply a case of the market not
recognizing that a particular coin is scarce so it doesn't get the demand to push up the
price. In the better known areas like the highest grades there is much more knowledge
of availability thanks to the pop reports but what about those coins which don't get sub-
mitted? What about the out of the money grades for the moderns? Everyone seems to
just assume that these are all extremely common because the price is low. This is not
always the case. There are lots of coins like '70-S nickels and '82-P quarters which are
very tough in the slightly lower grades.
Just as there's nothing wrong with collecting bust halfs in VG, there's nothing wrong with
collecting clad quarters in MS-65.
<< <i>I didn't intend to enter the world of "modern bashing". As far as I am concerned, collect whatever turns you on. To me, moderns are just pocket change. >>
Most coinage starts out as pocket change and this has been true for
25 centuries. Without collector to save it there would be none for us
to collect today.
<< <i>
The modern comment was actually a side bar, my main thrust is that I can't see paying a big premimum for an extra grade poin or two, especially so when the grading services are inconsistent both between services and within the same service, as best demonstrated by the King of Siam set! This applies to all coins, old or modern, but seems more acute for moderns IMO. >>
Double check those price guides. Generally you'll see larger spreads
in the widely collected areas like indian cent than in the moderns. Also
the magnitude of the difference tends to be higher for older coins.
As far as inconsistency in the services you should keep in mind that
there are real differences among coins and that these are indepen-
dent of what you, I, or the services call them. The best walking half
will always be the best walking half whether it's called a gem or any-
thing else. This also applies to moderns.
Russ, NCNE
I like moderns. Heck, I like most coins. The beauty is that there are so many different coins for different folks.
Collect what you like. Relax and enjoy the hobby/business. All people like different things for different reasons. Just because someone likes moderns doesn't make them (insert negative comment here from thousands of modern bashing threads).
The same thing happens on the VW boards. There are folks that think that air-cooled VWs are the bees knees and that all water-cooled VW drivers are idiots.
The same thing happens on the car boards that deal with Corvettes. There are folks that think that the last great Corvette was the '67 (who would possibly want one of those hideous Stingray variants
I could go on for hours just like the above.
The point is, there are scarcities in almost every year and mint of coin. Collect what you like. Relax and enjoy coins.
<< <i>There are folks that think that the last great Corvette was the '67 >>
Actually, it was the '85.
Russ, NCNE
In fact this trend started well before the grading services were around by about 10-15 years so don't blame it on them. My first visit to a public auction was in March 1975. I went to purchase a GEM 1867-s quarter at Stacks. The Red Book listed this coin at $300 in UNC. I figured that 3x Red Book would be a more than adequate premium to own the coin. Wrong! It took 6X Red Book to get the coin....and it wasn't me. Here was a case a 6X premium being paid over an ordinary UNC for a superb one. For what it's worth the coin graded MS66 in 1986 at PCGS. Today's standards label it a 67.
The coin hasn't changed in 29 years but the standards have. And it took 100X that intiial Red Book price in 1975 to own that coin in 1980! You could say those 5 years were inflationary.
The quest for perfection has been around a long time...possibly even into the late 1960's.
roadrunner
I did want to actually answer one of your questions - I think I do understand your question and welcome the debate.
I think that what happens to lots of folks is that they see a combination of things: their personal opinion about moderns is that they are pocket change and are only worth face; and there are some moderns where a point or two in grade translates to large dollar differences. The truth of the matter is that they are all coins - both modern and classic. All coins were moderns at some point in time, and I am glad that someone thought to save some of them in higher grades. In addition, there are plenty of times where I've seen classic coins going for major dollar differences because of "only a point or two." I don't see where moderns cause a spread any more than any other coin type.
As to a different part of your question, I have a bit of a digression to say: TPG services have made my coin life better - without any shadow of a question of doubt. Period.
Pop reports are a guide, not a bible. There is definitely a grain of salt to be taken with them.
I'm glad you've spoken out with your opinions and feelings on these subjects. Welcome to the boards.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
<< <i>Is an additional grade point or two worth megabuck$????? >>
yes, but it should'nt be
K S
And yes, but it shouldnt be.
Im not even going to talk about the moderns...