Rip a coin, or buy a coin for fair market value….

JR

Which do you prefer? Personally, I have a problem with buying a coin for an amount grossly under fair market value (or over it too). I am comfortable with paying an amount roughly equal to its fair market value (FMV), but most times I have paid over FMV.

What are your thoughts? Personally, I don’t have a problem, if the amount in question is close to FMV. Any extremes in the price need to be discussed in advance of course.

BTW, I wouldn’t personally rip anther on a coin purchase. If the price is close to actual market value, then no worries. I’ll pay as well as I will collect.


JR

PS: I admit I enjoy a semi-rip over all others. Semi only....

KlectorKid

Depends who Im buying from and what the coin is.

airplanenut

I ripped a coin at the Summer Seminar... nearly doubled my money in only 5 days. Then again, I also pay way over sheet for some coins... in fact, I just paid about 4x sheet for an 1881-S Morgan.

I don't mind getting a good deal, and I don't mind paying heavily for a really nice coin. If someone has a price and I can pay it, I will--their loss/fault/problem if I "rip" them.

Jeremy

Edit: This post was assuming I'm buying from a dealer. If I were buying from an old lady, I'd have a problem ripping her off.

Russ

The bigger the rip the better.

Russ, NCNE

Theop

I don't know what it feels like to rip a coin. I wouldn't mind finding out at least once.

I think it depends on who you are buying from. I don't think I would have any trouble paying what a dealer was asking for a coin at a show or a coin shop. If I pay what he wants for it and the coin happens to be worth a great deal more, so be it. It's his business.

I wouldn't intentionally make a low-ball offer to someone for a coin or try to deceive them to believe the coin is worth less than it is.

Ripping from ebay is probably a gray area since you don't know who you are buying from, but since you take your chances when you buy there anyway, I think if you come out ahead, that is ok. Especially in the setting of a true auction.

JR

My question wasn't so much a question about being offered a good deal. My question pertains to rips. What's your position as a seller and as a buyer? That's what I'm askin'...

ziggy29

If I feel like the party I "ripped" from should have/should have known better about the value of the coin, I feel little if any remorse. If a coin dealer puts a valuable variety or somehow overlooks a key date and puts it in the junk box, then it's "let the seller beware."

But if an elderly widow came to me, having Clue Zero about what her late husband's coin collection is worth, you can bet that I'd not try to buy a $10,000 collection for two grand even if that's what she *thought* they were worth.

mtnman

I had no problem buying a 1999 silver proof set in a pawn shop for $30.00. I couldn't do it to someone that didn't know better, but a pawnshop! in a heart beat.

JR

<< <i> I don't know what it feels like to rip a coin. I wouldn't mind finding out at least once. >>



I hear you. I must admit to having two different positions on this matter

dorkkarl

if it's a coin i really like, & have spent a long time looking for it, i don't even consider what it's "market value" is, it's a rip regardless.

K S

JR

<< <i>If I feel like the party I "ripped" from should have/should have known better about the value of the coin, I feel little if any remorse. If a coin dealer puts a valuable variety or somehow overlooks a key date and puts it in the junk box, then it's "let the seller beware."

But if an elderly widow came to me, having Clue Zero about what her late husband's coin collection is worth, you can bet that I'd not try to buy a $10,000 collection for two grand even if that's what she *thought* they were worth. >>


Ziggy, I must admit that my positions are very similar to yours. If a knowledgeable person (primarily, read dealer) offers a coin for a set price, then so be it. If anyone else offers a coin for sale(set price or not), I personally feel obligated to advise them of the true value of their coin, and what I would pay for it. That's about as fair as I can offer.

steelheadbob

I belive in the old saying "Treat others as you would like to be treated". There is a big difference between a good deal and an out and out Rip. My late Grandfather collected coins for years and years and I still cringe every time I think about it. He had Over 100 Double Eagles among his many other coins. When he passed away my Grandmother paniked over the funeral cost and brought all the coins to a dealer. He "Ripped" her good and took the whole collection and covered the funeral. Telling my Grandmother that even though he was probably looseing money it was the Christen thing to do. After the Family found out what she had done we tried to buy the collection back. The dealer refused and denied having the majority of the coins. From my Grandfather's paper records the collection had a value over 1,000,000 and it paid for a 7,000 funeral. We could not prove it in court so it was lost. Hope he sleeps well at night. I send him a Christmas card with my Grandmothers photo every year so that he never forgets.

Elcontador

The idea of being able to 'rip' a coin is alien to me. I suppose if you're looking for mint errors, die varieties, etc., you may be able to 'rip' a coin. However, I collect primarily high grade 19th Century type.

People who have these coins know exactly what they are worth. The more typical scenarios are that a dealer doesn't have what I'm looking for, has the coin and IMO wants too much for it, or has the coin, but I don't think it's nice enough for the grade for my collection.

291fifth

Ripping, where dealers are concerned, is a rare event. I hear such tales from you east and west coast types. Here in the midwest, where there are few decent shows and even fewer decent dealers you really don't see much that could be considered a "rip". I suspect that those of you who are into highly specialized markets, such as toners, regularly think you have "ripped" some nice coins. All I can say is come here to the midwest and try to sell your "rips" for a cash profit. In my particular area the dealers live by the sheet...period. They pay premiums for nothing.

jbsteven

<< <i>I suspect that those of you who are into highly specialized markets, such as toners, regularly think you have "ripped" some nice coins >>



I have yet to buy a nice toner and sell it for a huge % profit. I just don't believe it that kind of business.

Normally 20% over what I paid is the best I ever do on a toner. Alot of times I lose 5-10% on toners.

rainbowroosie

JB,
Was it you or Onlyroosies who said "Never give a sucker an even break??"

Russ

steelheadbob,

What you described isn't a rip, it's theft pure and simple. The dealer is a slimebucket.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

Don't listen to Jason. He ripped me a new one on some toners I sold him a while back. Took advantage of my ignorance and complete lack of knowledge about coins. I was so devastated, I almost left the hobby. He's brutal and heartless. Don't let that mullet fool you.



Russ, NCNE

ziggy29

<< <i>I belive in the old saying "Treat others as you would like to be treated". There is a big difference between a good deal and an out and out Rip. My late Grandfather collected coins for years and years and I still cringe every time I think about it. He had Over 100 Double Eagles among his many other coins. When he passed away my Grandmother paniked over the funeral cost and brought all the coins to a dealer. He "Ripped" her good and took the whole collection and covered the funeral. Telling my Grandmother that even though he was probably looseing money it was the Christen thing to do. After the Family found out what she had done we tried to buy the collection back. The dealer refused and denied having the majority of the coins. From my Grandfather's paper records the collection had a value over 1,000,000 and it paid for a 7,000 funeral. We could not prove it in court so it was lost. Hope he sleeps well at night. I send him a Christmas card with my Grandmothers photo every year so that he never forgets. >>

Oh, my -- that's horrible. That "elderly widow" example I gave a while back was meant to be a contrived example; hope it didn't rip open old wounds. My apologies if so.

As someone else just wrote, that's not just a "rip". The dealer clearly KNEW what he had and took advantage of a desperate woman in a fragile, emotional and panicked situation. This is the scummiest of the scum, and in my opinion it passes legal muster for criminal fraud with his claims that he was going to lose money and willfully misrepresenting the value. Have you divulged this scumbag's identity to anyone? The people need to be warned, particularly if he's still in business. I'm sure your grandma's not the only one to be victimized like this.

jbsteven

<< <i>Was it you or Onlyroosies who said "Never give a sucker an even break??" >>



not my style.




<< <i>Don't listen to Jason. He ripped me a new one on some toners I sold him a while back. >>



nice try numbnuts. I made $150 on that deal.

LAWMAN

OK, the grandmother story makes the little hairs on my neck stand up. I don't advocate ripping grandmothers, widows, orphans, and the terminally stupid. But, when transacting business out there in the wide wide world, do we really have to give an IQ test to people before we do business with them? Do we want a world that is so politically correct that we have to do that? Did you ever inquire what ordinary items that you buy regularly actually cost the retailer who sells them to you? His wholesale source or distributor? The factory that manufactured it? If you peel back the thin veneer of modern civilization you find that somewhere in the course of business from origination to end consumer, somebody always gets "ripped," albeit at times gently. You think the little kid in Korea or Bangladesh who sews the shirts you buy for 12 hours a day and is a prisoner of the factory in which he works is not getting "ripped" for the value of his labor? Rips are easier when they go on over there (in the Third World) but not right in front of you.

Like so many things, the rip is all relative. I think that in a rarefied hobby atmosphere where you spend the time and the money to become educated about what you are numismatically reaping and sowing, you ought to be rewarded for your efforts. If people know that I am a coin person and want to unload coins on me, am I ethically obligated to first make them read the numismatic library I have read and accumulated over 40 years and then take some kind of test?

riiiiiiiiiipppppppp away mates!

jbsteven

<< <i>terminally stupid >>



there are more people than you think that are part of this group (outside of coin collecting).

LAWMAN

amen to that, brother

Russ

<< <i>nice try numbnuts. I made $150 on that deal. >>



That's a good profit on $10.

(Just in case anybody doesn't get it, I'm kidding. )

Hey! He called me numbnuts!

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29

<< <i>OK, the grandmother story makes the little hairs on my neck stand up. I don't advocate ripping grandmothers, widows, orphans, and the terminally stupid. But, when transacting business out there in the wide wide world, do we really have to give an IQ test to people before we do business with them? >>

Well, you may want to recall that in the real-world example we were given, a dealer -- someone who presumably KNOWS coins and their value -- tells someone that HE'LL TAKE A LOSS by giving someone 1% of market value on a bunch of obviously valuable gold coins. He clearly and willfully misrepresented the value of the coins, presumably to make her want to take the deal, and THAT, my friend, borders on fraud if not actual fraud.

This has nothing to do with IQ. Plenty on intelligent people know nothing about coins. I'm pretty intelligent guy, and there's a LOT of stuff I know nothing about. We aren't all Ken Jennings and we don't all know everything about everything. Some of the most brilliant people I know are eminently clueless about some things that even average citizens know.

We're not just talking about exploitation in this case. We're talking about outright *lying* about the value of this collection. Is that morally acceptable in your ideal dog-eat-dog economy?

UncleWiggly

For every rip under, I take 3 rips over.

Jerry

nwcs

I don't have a problem ripping a coin from a dealer who didn't do any homework on the coin. Now, if it's a typographical error, that's another story. I won't rip someone who is not a coin person. They shouldn't be expected to have knowledge to work with in coins.

LAWMAN

ZIGGY: OK, you got a point. I could argue why it wasn't fraud, but my dear old sainted grandmother will come down from heaven and smite me if I do. But, caveat emptor is not totally gone.

Lakesammman

There are some coins (patterns, errors and varieties) where I have no idea what a coin is worth. I prefer paying what I'm comfortable with and have no clue if it's a rip or not. Of course, cherrypicking varietes from clueless dealers is fun too....

jbsteven

<< <i>Hey! He called me numbnuts! >>



if the shoe fits..............

Russ

Why would I wear a shoe on my nuts?

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven

<< <i>Why would I wear a shoe on my nuts? >>



awwwwwwwww nevermind

steelheadbob

The dealer in quetion had inherited the shop from his father. About three years after the incident with my Grandmother he went out of business. He still lives in town because his address is in the phone book and the Christmas cards are never returned. We contacted a lawyer and he advised us that we had no case. He did send a few letters but the dealer did not respond. What burns me the most was most of the collection wasn't worth that much and he took everything. My Grandpa had three Army foot lockers full of coins and paper money. The only thing I have left of it are two bands of original 2 doller bills and 1 band full of five doller Silver certificates. Like I said before I hope he sleeps well at night.